What creates Imaging/sound stage

[Mendes]

2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

If you don't know "how" it works  .... then how will you get it?      Also, if you don't care "what creates imaging/soundstage" ..... then why post here?  

I believe I can post or not where ever I choose, without having to explain to anyone................ Mod's correct me if I'm wrong...

[Candyflip]

23 minutes ago, Mendes said:

I believe I can post or not where ever I choose, without having to explain to anyone................ Mod's correct me if I'm wrong...

Of course you can post here anytime you like - I believe Dave is questioning why you would say 'who cares' in a thread titled 'What creates Imaging/sound stage'

[MLXXX]

2 hours ago, MLXXX said:

And then you can have two microphones placed metres apart for a recording (e.g. for a choir) in the "AB" configuration. Are your home speakers wider  apart than the microphones were, or closer together?

 

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Why does that matter?

If your speakers are wider apart then the A B configuration microphones were, there's a good chance the choir will sound more expansive side to side, as if you were sitting or standing near to it. If your speakers are very close together there's a good chance the choir will sound restricted from side to side, as if you were sitting or standing far away from it.

 

This raises the question of what we are trying to achieve when we listen to music. Do we want something to sound as it might have sounded to us seated in an auditorium, or do we not really care very much?

 

With photography, the default is go for accurate colour temperature, but sometimes we could intentionally change the skin tone to achieve a certain look.  Real estate photos taken with wide-angle lenses make small rooms appear larger than they really are.

 

Depending on speaker placement, and depending on the microphone placement and mixing in the recording, you could end up with a small chamber orchestra appearing to occupy as much stage width as a full symphony orchestra.  Would that matter?  It might be a case of personal taste.

Edited February 15, 2019 by MLXXX

[Guest Muon N']

9 minutes ago, candyflip said:

Of course you can post here anytime you like - I believe Dave is questioning why you would say 'who cares' in a thread titled 'What creates Imaging/sound stage'

He also comes across as trying to play teacher, whether someone requires it or not....It's often met with resistance as it's not asked for.

 

So I understand where Mendes is coming from.

 

Anyway..

[andyr]

1 hour ago, acg said:

 

Oh, and as far as I am aware Dave, you are correct regarding the different sound in each ear thingamy, but I am not certain that super low distortion is entirely required because I have heard valve pre's make some magic in certain systems when inserted in place of a SS preamp with better THD etc. specifications.  I know, it is entirely anecdotal and me perhaps thinking that the improvement was related to the item inserted rather than the item removed or perhaps its interaction with another component/s, but, well, it is what I have noticed.

 

 

You are correct, acg.  (And the improvement is related to the item inserted - the valve preamp).

 

The valve pre will have a much higher THD figure than the ss preamp - ie. it is certainly not 'super low distortion'!  But it's the much higher 2nd HD of the tube preamp (compared to the ss amp) which gives you that 'tubey magic'. 

 

Andy

 

[acg]

14 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

You are correct, acg.  (And the improvement is related to the item inserted - the valve preamp).

 

The valve pre will have a much higher THD figure than the ss preamp - ie. it is certainly not 'super low distortion'!  But it's the much higher 2nd HD of the tube preamp (compared to the ss amp) which gives you that 'tubey magic'. 

 

Andy

 

 

Not so much the tubey magic Andy, rather the profound increase of size and focus of the soundstage when the valve pre was inserted (although there was also a little toob magic as well).  It was not in my system though, I use a SS pre.

[Crosscourt121]

You know when you have a mate over and have to move over on the couch to give them the sweet spot.  Well when I replaced my ss integrated amp ($2.4K being used as a pre into a power) with my new tube pre ($2.3K) I experienced one of my most palpable moments in audio listening - the soundstage did not collapse one iota.  Everything was still spot on except for an uneven balance.  My speakers are standmounts that are carefully setup re: measurements from the listening position.

 

My simple conclusion is the new pre is better than the old (and so it should be).

 

Peter

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, Mendes said:

I believe I can post or not where ever I choose

Of course, you can.    I was just interested.

 

2 hours ago, Mendes said:

Mod's

FFS.

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, candyflip said:

Of course you can post here anytime you like - I believe Dave is questioning why you would say 'who cares' in a thread titled 'What creates Imaging/sound stage'

Too right.

 

This one time I walked up to some guys in the pub who were talking about what made football player X so much better than football player Y .... and I said to them "who really cares why!!?!".

 

Didn't go well from there.

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, MLXXX said:

If your speakers are wider apart then the A B configuration microphones were, there's a good chance the choir will sound more expansive side to side, as if you were sitting or standing near to it. If your speakers are very close together there's a good chance the choir will sound restricted from side to side, as if you were sitting or standing far away from it.

It difficult for me to provide a clear and succinct answer to such a complex topic (which covers all the ifs and buts) .... but in short....  "this is not really how it works".

[Ittaku]

1 hour ago, acg said:

 

Not so much the tubey magic Andy, rather the profound increase of size and focus of the soundstage when the valve pre was inserted (although there was also a little toob magic as well).  It was not in my system though, I use a SS pre.

You'll find this article very interesting and relevant.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-26-nelson-pass-harmonic-distortion

 

The important part is that Nelson Pass was handing out 2nd harmonic distortion boards for people to play with. Note that valve preamps tend to have 2nd harmonic distortion. I quote the most important part below.

 

When you turn the knob to the left, which is negative-phase second harmonic, the room gets bigger, more atmospheric, you start to see images of musicians. Turn the knob right, you get positive-phase second harmonic, which brings the musicians closer to you: drier but more intimate, more apparent detail. But of course," Pass reminded us, grinning hugely," this is all illusion!"

[The Bluesman]

On 13/02/2019 at 2:35 PM, ashmeow said:

In peoples opinions is it 100 percent the speaker that creates the soundstage? or 50/0 speaker amp? or?

 

 

Well it could be good music that you Dig, that is the main thing in my opinion and good HiFi well positioned HiFi come in 2nd, you need music to create a Soundstage and adjust accordingly 

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

It difficult for me to provide a clear and succinct answer to such a complex topic (which covers all the ifs and buts) .... but in short....  "this is not really how it works".

I have not asked you for any answer, @davewantsmoore. I made a simple observation to the effect that speaker separation as it interacts with microphone positioning and mixing of the recording will affect the perceived sound stage for the listener, and likely affect the apparent width of it.

 

If you doubt that, as apparently you do, try listening  with speakers 1 metre apart, and then with them 4 metres apart, without changing your listening position in front of the speakers.

 

The important point for you to grasp (if you haven't already) is that the differences between the Left and Right signals in a stereo recording as regards things like amplitude, timing and phase are only the starting point for the creation of the illusion of a sound stage. The actual particular illusion created is a function of many variables including the speaker cabinet separation distance and the listening position.

 

And the listener's own real life experiences in concert halls and other listening spaces and their internalised model of how certain performers or instruments should sound at a distance will come into play to a degree. There is no guarantee that two people will perceive the sound stage with the same relative positioning of the performers, even if taking turns to sit in the same listening chair. Perception of a sound stage involves the imagination, not just basic hearing.

 

The OP has posed quite a complex question.

[andyr]

Great post, MLXXX. 

 

Andy

 

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

You'll find this article very interesting and relevant.

Interesting.   Perhaps I haven't reproduced this result because of:

Quote

The H2 works best with simple material. With complex material, second harmonic may be more of a burden than an asset.

I was not able to pick quite significant amounts in a blind test.   In a sighted test I said high levels of H2 was detrimental.

 

... where as on "test tones", H2 audibility is all over the place.   Sometimes quite easy, although mostly not.

[davewantsmoore]

9 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

I have not asked you for any answer, @davewantsmoore

Poorly worded on my part.... I should have replaced "answer" with "comment".

 

9 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

If you doubt that, as apparently you do, try listening  with speakers 1 metre apart, and then with them 4 metres apart, without changing your listening position in front of the speakers.

 

-_-

 

 

 

 

[Hazzzy]

6 hours ago, acg said:

I eat mushrooms pretty much every day

Mabey try the magic variety. Not recommended. You will get imaging and soundstage everywhere!

[Guest Muon N']

15 minutes ago, Hazzzy said:

Mabey try the magic variety. Not recommended. You will get imaging and soundstage everywhere!

I have a Pink Floyd The Wall  experience that would fit here.....

 

Definitely not recommended

[keyse1]

14 hours ago, The Bluesman said:

Well it could be good music that you Dig, that is the main thing in my opinion and good HiFi well positioned HiFi come in 2nd, you need music to create a Soundstage and adjust accordingly 

Nobody seems to give any credit to the musicians for the great sound of music coming out of their stereo

 

[Ittaku]

Sound stage is complete artifice created by hi-fi. If you saw the way music is actually recorded with multiple microphones close up to each instrument and then mixed up the wazoo, you'd know that the presence of instruments in a soundstage left to right, front to back, top to bottom, doesn't remotely resemble what went into the recording. It's extremely rare for even acoustic classical instrument recordings to even be done with two microphones your speakers' distance apart (or headphones.) Classical has microphones suspended in the air above the instrument at optimal positions to catch all the group of instruments equal magnitude and are also mixed to then try to recreate approximately where the instruments were left to right during playback. None of this means it isn't worth recreating in hi-fi, though, as the whole point of mixing is to try and create this soundstage. It is the artists and sound engineers' visions of what it should sound like. However don't be fooled into thinking you are actually recreating what went into the microphones unless you're listening to something like a Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo recording. Considering the soundstage of a heavily mixed multi-mic'ed recording is virtually indistinguishable from a two microphone setup like those, it's an impressive feat.

[MLXXX]

41 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Sound stage is complete artifice created by hi-fi. If you saw the way music is actually recorded with multiple microphones close up to each instrument and then mixed up the wazoo, you'd know that the presence of instruments in a soundstage left to right, front to back, top to bottom, doesn't remotely resemble what went into the recording. It's extremely rare for even acoustic classical instrument recordings to even be done with two microphones your speakers' distance apart (or headphones.)
...
Considering the soundstage of a heavily mixed multi-mic'ed recording is virtually indistinguishable from a two microphone setup like those, it's an impressive feat.

Well put, @Ittaku.

In my world of small informal string quartet ensembles we sometimes do just use two microphones in an XY configuration, and some of the YouTube recordings on the net of small groups will reveal a small portable recorder immediately in front of the group, with XY oriented mikes. That simple method can be quite effective.

 

 

However, as you have mentioned, so often (more often) there is a great variety of mikes, mixed together (e.g. using different extents of pans between left and right for each mike).  It really is remarkable how that complicated mix can end up sounding like a natural sound stage.