On-The-Couch: "Confessions of a Low Range-Audiophile"

[stixstudios]

It all started a few weeks ago. Although I've always felt there was something brewing underneath.

 

Having semi-retired in November last year, I wanted to buy myself a little present. ie. upgrade by current stereo setup. I'm not interested in surround sound, just basic 2 channel. A very meager budget of 1,500 to 2,000 and I should be able to at least improve the quality of my current listening experience.

 

My current system consists of an old Onkyo 30 watt amp (PA-33) and 2 un-branded speakers - the speakers are more "studio monitors" (horn tweeters) than HiFi speakers. Nevertheless, that system has been reasonable. That is, in my view, it's "been able to deliver an acceptable reproduction of the recording". The amp has deteriorated over the last 15 or so years that I've had it, and now is pretty much screwed on the left channel, no noticeable distortion, just volume, where to even out the balance, the balance dial is now set to 9 o'clock.

 

The style of music I like is from the 80's. Alan Parsons (renowned sound engineer), Pink Floyd (Parsons helped engineer that one - I believe), Supertramp, Fleetwood Mac, Eagles etc. To me those are fantastically executed recordings, mixing and mastering. I've also played bass guitar in a band - I like "punchy" bass and LOUD Music.

 

I suppose that the first step in my upgrade path would have been to first look for a better amp (maybe 2nd hand), then look at replacing the monitors. But I haven't done that. I came across some Altec Lansing 508A's and given (my) previous "brand loyalty" including the "proximity affect", ie. not too far away, I purchased them. One of the woofers shows deterioration (gone hard) in the surround and cracked, and after checking all of them, then I've realised there is some distortion at the low end - coming from the surrounds. I'll have to replace them all (4 x 8" woofers overall) prolly around $200 all up.

 

Even so, as it is, these speakers are much better (in my view) than what I had. Although they do lack a bit of grunt in the bass end. Also with the titanium tweeters and titanium mid-range, or is it a "squawker" ? dunno. Revealing? Yes!... Too much... perhaps a bit "splashy". I've been able to tame the splashy-ness by cutting back on the high freq. (let's please please not go down the path of metal domes vs silk etc...)

 

So, I'm not really sure where I stand. The next step is a reasonable amp. I'm looking at a Yamaha A-S701 (bang for your buck) or a Marantz PM6006 (more expensive, but "sweeter sound"???). I like the Yamaha because I could possibly "tweak" it to make the 508's sound more "sweet" - also it has an output to drive a sub-woofer, if required, and a "variable" loudness control (nice).

 

OR... dare I say, that no amount of tweaking with eq. will make bad speakers sound good. A "silk purse out of a sours ear", so to speak. But I reckon I could "tame" what I have with minimal cost. Someone said on this forum that I read recently, had the courage and conviction to admit that  - If it doesn't sound good, then don't get too hung up on what you paid for it, your conscience and ears will be the judge" Perhaps time to have a re-set and start again, but my monetary options are limited.

 

I must confess, after a few beers and a bourbon or two, then involuntarily laying down on a carpeted floor, the bass is improved and the speakers sound "fantastic". Personally, I recommend lying on your back and feet towards the speakers (face down is not recommended). Just make sure you fall down in the right position and remove your shoes & socks first, because they can cause unintended reflections in the treble regions.

 

Cheers.

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by stixstudios

[wen]

read a review on HiFi Classic, very good speakers, they recommended amps between 125-250 wpc, 6ohms and 92.5d/w/m which is above spec, your best bet would be second hand to get value for $, someone else may give some ideas on matching amp, from your post i would be going for the sweeter sound, easier to listen to long term

[Al.M]

Up to $1500 budget used or new will get you a good to very good amp. Potential to get an intergrated amp that was $4000 rrp in its day, whereas any new $1500 amp once you walk out the shop door will be worth about $500-700.

 

The Altec speakers look quite serious vintage type and some info is here https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/171035-fs-pair-of-altec-lansing-508a/

 

Just because it says 125w nominal -250w max for the speakers doesn’t mean much. Vintage speaker brochures tended to say nominal, meaning average power and then max as if to say that is the very max but there is lot more it than that. A good 50w amp work and even a 500w amp can be used as you rarely ever turn the volume to max any way so doesn’t mean the speaker will instantly blow up as its normal to play the volume knob no more than 11am to 1-2pm and it will be plenty loud and safe.

 

Examples of used amps, gumtree.com currently has a Yamaha AS1000 for $1k, others to lookout for include Musical Fidelity already mentioned above, Accuphase, used Yamaha AS700 etc. $1500 can also get you an even potentially better tube or solid state preamp and solid state power amp combo like an Audiolab 8000q and 8000p etc, some kind of tube preamp and Bryston power amp etc.

 

Also see numerous amp reviews by regular poster Cafad on this forum in the search function.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Al.M

[stixstudios]

7 minutes ago, wen said:

read a review on HiFi Classic, very good speakers, they recommended amps between 125-250 wpc, 6ohms and 92.5d/w/m which is above spec, your best bet would be second hand to get value for $, someone else may give some ideas on matching amp, from your post i would be going for the sweeter sound, easier to listen to long term

 

Thanks Wen.

 

I've already read the review on HiFi Classic, and a very "glowing" review it is. Other reviews not so, but in the end it's up to me what I like. With a pretty well horrible spec amp that I have, I do really like what I hear from the speakers - an improvement.

 

A suitable matching amp is indeed required. I've been pointed to a Music Fidelity A3 Dual mono Integrated amp. No doubt that amp would be fantastic!! I almosted purchased it. My main issue with that amp is that it does not have tone controls. My musical tastes are varied, and all recordings are not created equal, therefore I'd like a bit of room for "tweaking" if required (without introducing a graphic Eq).

 

After listening to the 508's for a few days, with my sh*t amp, I'm really starting to love the clarity. I've heard things I've NEVER heard before. Some good, and some bad. The bass isn't as powerful as I would like, but nice, tight and smooth. I like that part indeed. Perhaps with the 25yo+ rubber woofer surrounds, yep, they are very hard - once replaced, I'm thinking not bad. But TIME TO BUY A NEW AMP.

 

If I replace the surrounds (therefore less "physical" distortion), then the woofers will be able to "extend" and perhaps produce the bass that I like. If not, then I'll purchase an amp with an external sub woofer connection. The Yamaha A-S701 has such a connection.

 

I can't do "real world" tests between the Yamaha or Marantz - who can?... Who is going to come to my house, with both amps, in my environment, using my speakers, for the pleasure of my testing? No-one. But for me to make that evaluation, then that would be the best way. So I have to make a compromise, and considering my "price-point", that compromise is within a short range.

 

That's not to say it can't be done - hence the reason and questions asked here on this forum, to get the BEST out of what I have.

 

I confess, I'm not an Audiophile.

[stixstudios]

1 hour ago, Al.M said:

... can also get you an even potentially better tube or solid state preamp and solid state power amp combo like an Audiolab 8000q and 8000p etc, some kind of tube preamp and Bryston power amp etc.

 

Also see numerous amp reviews by regular poster Cafad on this forum in the search function.

Yes, thanks AI.M.

 

I do like valve pre-amps. I've got a valve pre-amp that I use for guitar amplification. I love the sound. I doubt if I could afford it, with a stereo hifi setup, Perhaps a valve pre-amp and SS power amp? Probably not within my budget.

 

Regarding Valve Amps. The best I've ever experienced was during the late 70's. My brother and I purchased a "Goldentone" guitar amp. Aussie made too . We did abuse it by inputting tape and records line output into the input channel (wrong impedance). But, I'll give you the mail. That amp produced the most "bowel curdling"  bass that I've ever experienced. If you like that sort of thing.

 

It was a simple mono box, probably about 60cm wide x 60cm high x 40cm deep. It's a shame that we destroyed it in the end, due to overloading the inputs (we didn't know any better), but I'll never forget it. I think it was Fleetwood Macs : "The Chain" that was the final straw - fan-bloody-tastic.!!!

 

That's the sort of bass I enjoy.

Edited January 27, 2019 by stixstudios

[Al.M]

12 hours ago, stixstudios said:

I doubt if I could afford it with, a stereo hifi setup, Perhaps a valve pre-amp and SS power amp? Probably not within my budget.

For your stated $1500-2000 budget can be done with used gear. For example, a Sonic Frontiers or Audio Research tube preamp or similar for around d $800 plus $1000 Bryston solid state power amp or similar would beat most new $4000 new integrated and many midfi sounding integrated amps. Just look around in classified here and on Gumtree.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Al.M

[stixstudios]

Thank AI.M.

 

I guess my little story above was about LOUDNESS at any cost. Great as it may have been at that time, it was never about High Fidelity. Hi Fi has always been an interest, I'm fine to accept my level, and I do appreciate the difference and do know what I like to hear.

 

Over the years, you get a bit lazy and other priorities come to the fore.

 

[EDIT] Oh yeah, just to qualify, I do have a bit of cash to spend now, but still have to be careful.

The Altec's will have to have the surrounds replaced - but at this point they still sound nice.

Edited January 27, 2019 by stixstudios

[stixstudios]

Do you want to know what the "dumbest" thing is??

Edited January 27, 2019 by stixstudios

[Guest Muon N']

If those speakers use electrolytic caps in the crossovers (looks like there are two of them in each, a 47uf and can't make out the smaller one in the pic I found) you might do well to replace them with same value film caps, or at least replace with new quality electrolytic caps.

[zero1]

Some very good suggestions so far.

Sounds like your on the right path & know this already, but your Onkyo amp wont be doing your speakers any favors & will be the reason for all of the issues you mentioned above.

I would get the amp sorted before doing anything with the speakers, you'll have a much better idea of what they're capable of.

 

As suggested above second hand will net you better bang for your buck, other options like a Nad C372 or even looking for a high current Adcom power amp like the 535/545 then add a preamp will come in well under your budget with change left over to look at other things like cables.

If you're using basic RCA interconnects (the type that come free with most basic electronics) that would be what I'd look at upgrading after you sort the amp.

 

[The Rock Puppy]

For what it's worth, I reckon that, if you intend to do it, you should get the woofer surrounds replaced, and if possible, the crossover capacitors too. Can't see how you can make a valid comparison between things if the speakers aren't actually working correctly, and with bodgy surrounds, I can't see how they could be.

[zero1]

Good point, but the OP seems to be making decisions on which amp direction to take to address shortcomings based on using his current Onkyo, which even if it was in PWO would still not be a great basis to make those decisions on (no offence OP)

14 hours ago, stixstudios said:

My current system consists of an old Onkyo 30 watt amp (PA-33)... The amp has deteriorated over the last 15 or so years that I've had it, and now is pretty much screwed on the left channel, no noticeable distortion, just volume, where to even out the balance, the balance dial is now set to 9 o'clock.

 

 

[Al.M]

4 hours ago, zero1 said:

Adcom power amp like the 535/545

In addition many power amp options like Adcom 555, Naim 250, ME, Quad 405, some Rotels, list goes on.

 

A tube preamp might help to soften the dryer harder sound of titanium drivers in the speakers if assumptions are in anyway correct.

[SPANDAU BALLET]

Im not a hifi snob...............Look for a Quad 405 Power AMP......Timeless English Quality.

Thats a great Suggestion A.I.M( previous post) I agree wholeheartedly.

Your Pa-33 is a brave little AMP. Now its time to say "Thanks for the memories" a a big HELLO to a new friend.

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/osborne-park/stereo-systems/quad-405-power-amp/1207120245

Im an Onkyo guy for amps but it was the big M Models that always satisfied my requirements.

Why the Quad................cause its cheap......$400-$600 bucks.

I have a pre.....know what it is.............its a second hand Denon Reciever with Pre outs for a power Amp.

Its a Denon AVR 3313.............these go for $200 Bucks................6 years ago they were $1700.

Amp first...............the power and the capacitance will support your 70's prog rock..........then maybe further down the track chuck the rest and the Christmas club money into some speakers.................I wouldnt be in a hurry champ. 

With a bit of room placement, I'm going to say it.........................95% of the population couldnt pick a system of that type of configuration from one worth 10 times as much.

Folks to me thats the spirit of HiFi...........for the people and the pure enjoyment of Music. Enjoy

Anyone talking about quality cables, Valve AMPs etc in the $1500-$2000 price range is forgetting the brief. Yes Cheap CAN be cheerful

Edited January 28, 2019 by SPANDAU BALLET

[wen]

have listened to the Quad 405, brilliant value for money, have to spend$xx to improve, should sound great with your speakers

[stixstudios]

Thanks everyone for your time and suggestions, much appreciated.

 

Please, don't forget that the title of this post mentions: low-range-audiophile.

 

I read up on the NAD 372, and if I had the opportunity to easily buy one, then that would be sitting in my lounge room right now instead of the Yamaha A-S701 that I ended up buying...(Gasp!!!)

 

Well, without letting my heart get in the way, in practical terms, I had to be a bit conservative. With the yammy, I get a 2yr warranty. Also the yammy does tick all the boxes (for me): The power to cost ratio is very good, it has 2 digital inputs: Toslink and Coax, it has an option for sub-woofer out, and the variable loudness control is useful to tame/adjust some sonically crap recordings. It's certainly not a "sexy" amp, but the 508A's make up for that .

 

The Yamaha's are known for perhaps being a bit "sterile" or "clinical" sounding. Well, my view is that an amplifier is the middle of the chain. Therefore it's job should be to simply reproduce faithfully the sound that comes in, not to impart "colour", and the yammy absolutely does that. If I'm not happy with the "sound", then I could always look at different speakers, or a valve pre-amp (a kit maybe?).

 

I am happy with the sound I'm getting now. Although to get to the sort of loudness I like you have to push the yammy up to about 1/2 way and then those speakers really start to perform, no obvious distortion and I'm sure I could have pushed it even further. Having played in a band, when I say "loud",  my version of loud is like standing in a 5x5mtr room with a drummer thrashing around and the lead guitarist always wanting to sound the loudest (as they do).

 

I'm not saying my current system is as loud as that, but it is very satisfying and the sound is bassy, nice and clear. In Melbourne (a couple nights ago) we had a huge storm. This was a good chance to do some proper testing with volume - no chance the neighbours would complain about the noise

 

During testing, a small 10x10mm piece of foam rubber fell out of the woofer that already has a cracked surround. So, that's it for loud testing in case I make it worse by screwing up the coils or something else. I've got to get the surrounds replaced on all 4 woofers.

 

I've got one contact, but if anyone can recommend quality speaker repairers in Melbourne, I'm all ears. I could give it a go myself, but I'd hate to screw it up.

 

Cheers, Steve.

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by stixstudios

[stixstudios]

On 01/02/2019 at 1:38 AM, stixstudios said:

 . . . During testing, a small 10x10mm piece of foam rubber fell out of the woofer that already has a cracked surround. So, that's it for loud testing in case I make it worse by screwing up the coils or something else . . .

Well, during the "thunderstorm Test", I almost did screw up something else.

 

I had the grill/cover over the other speaker that I thought was ok and was concentrating on the speaker of concern. The next day/s I pulled the cover off the other one and realised that one of the woofer surrounds was cracked approx. 1/3 of the way around. Ouch!!!

 

Today, although I didn't want to, I removed all 4 woofers. I wanted to check that no damage had been made to the coils. I tell you it was hard to start slicing through the surrounds with my stanley knife knowing there was no return. But it had to be done.

 

With the surrounds removed I was able to do a simple test by carefully pushing down on the cone. No scraping thank God, but the coils on these speakers are very tight around the pole piece. They are not damaged, but the small tolerance is by design.

 

So now the 508A's linger in hibernation, and I've had to re-instate my old Linear Phase 8812 Monitors (the "White Van" versions). Needless to say, the difference is like night and day.

 

I've ordered some replacement surrounds from the US. I'm going to carefully "prep" the speakers, ie. carefully remove the old glue/gunk (to help limit the costs).

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Al.M]

You shouldn’t be playing speakers until repaired especially at loud volumes.

[stixstudios]

Yeah, I know AI.M, but it sounded so good I couldn't help myself. I knew it would happen, luckily no extra damage done (I don't think).

 

I'm currently prepping the speakers by removing the surrounds and cleaning the cone up etc.. I'll see how it goes, I may even attempt to replace the surrounds myself. <gulp>.

[Al.M]

It’s not so hard DIYing surrounds on woofers. Google it. Get an extra set incase make a mistake and start over.

[stixstudios]

Done the googling enough. These woofers are not run-of-the-mill. Angled "under" surrounds" and non-standard plastic "over-surrounds".

 

On the first speaker I removed a gasket that I probably shouldn't have. It can be fixed though.

 

It's taken me many hours to prepare these, and it's looking pretty good. When the "surrounds" arrive from the USA, then I'll give it a crack, otherwise I'll get a professional to do it.

 

Yes, it would have been good to order 2 more (these need 4. That is 2 in each cabinet). I may as well have done so considering the postal cost.!!!

 

It's going be a huge task, but I'm looking forward to the challenge. I give myself 93% success, 7% fail. If I screw up, that would really piss me off. Nice original woofers (re-furbished) in original boxes.... aaarrrrggghhhhhhh!!!

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by stixstudios
Reason: Accidentally dropped my beer on the floor, then fell over looking for it. Apologies for the delay.

[Al.M]

What I find works for me in roll surround replacement, dont go the trouble of taking off dust cap, instead glue the woofer cone to surround first let it dry. Lineup woofer position to coil making sure its not rubbing, keep some pegs clamped to basket frame edge while gluing the one side then move around to other side and clamping it gently. Test for fit and coil alignment by gently pushing cone in and out.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Al.M

[Jim Johnston]

Ron Newbound, take your speakers to him, guy is a gentleman, you won’t the regret it, doesn’t rip you off and does an amazing job.

[stixstudios]

Cheers AI.M, Yep, I agree with everything you just said.

 

I don't have replacement dust caps anyway, so removing them and using shims could possibly screw them up.

 

I was just talking to my brother about the best way to attach the surrounds and we both agreed that using pegs as you suggested above, would be a good way to approach it. Sort of like a tack-weld situation.

 

I've finally finished prepping them. I'd guess it took me around 2hrs for each - softly softly, I took my time. I could have got similar replacements (kevlar), but NO, I want to try and take them back to their original condition.

 

As a side note, I mentioned in an earlier post that these 508A's tend to sound a bit "splashy". During the "thunderstorm" testing episode, I fiddled with the variable loudness control on the Yamaha A-S701 which "scoopes" out a bit of midrange and was able to remove, or at least control the sound to a point which I was very happy with.

 

What that means is it was not the treble (tweeter) causing the offending frequency, but the mid-range which is a 2 inch titanium speaker. Which I still reckon seems more like a "squawker".

 

I'm looking forward to getting the surrounds and replacing them. If they sound as good as they did (and they bloody well should sound better at the low end) then I'll be very very happy. These are pretty damm good speakers in my view. Hopefully I don't destroy them :).

 

[Al.M]

Regarding the spalshiness, the likely driver crossover freq of a speaker using small mid dome is maybe something like 500-1000hz from woofer to midrange and 5000-6000hz+ maybe even higher, it may be coming from a combination of tweeter and midrange driver response. Without access to sound measurements perhaps find the resistor feeding the tweeter and increase its value by about 20% to reduce intensity and play around.

 

Subjectively, without placing your grandmothers inheritance on any bets, many would say the metallic domes can tend but not always sound splashy or ringing. An upgrade or refresh of capacitors in the crossover circuit might also help as the speaker is quite old now and values may have drifted as caps can dry up over time.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Al.M