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sir sanders zingmore

Anyone familiar with March Audio?

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Nice!

I have been keen to see a local active dsp speaker - will this be full range?

Also, the power supply and input buffers for the hypex modules made a difference in my subjective experience. What do you use/implement for your power amps?

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40 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Wow! Very impressive.

Also, kudos on avoiding those horrible IEC mains connectors.

You might be thinking of the wrong manufacturer Zaph.

 

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2 minutes ago, Pops110 said:

You might be thinking of the wrong manufacturer Zaph.

 

Oops. You are correct. I was thinking of those Herschel Audio amps.

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1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Wow! Very impressive.

Also, kudos on avoiding those horrible IEC mains connectors.

Have to ask, what do feel is horrible about IEC connectors?

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23 hours ago, AudioGeek said:

Nice!

I have been keen to see a local active dsp speaker - will this be full range?

Also, the power supply and input buffers for the hypex modules made a difference in my subjective experience. What do you use/implement for your power amps?

Depends what you mean by full range :)  Final Spec is undecided, if I go the "full hog" it will be based on the design I made for myself, 3 way AMT tweeter, dome mid.  However it could be a 2 way stand mount variation...or I suppose both would be the sensible solution :)

 

Oooohhh op amp rolling... controversial :)  Swapping op amps is only going to make a significant difference if it significantly changes the technical performance.  Now dont take the following the wrong way, its just a comment on what I have seen done by others.  Unfortunately people who indulge in this sport often have no technical equipment to measure if it has made a change.  This is compounded by sighted uncontrolled and delayed listening comparisons which almost certainly leads to faulty conclusions. I will try and dig out a link to a test with op amp rolling in a Topping DAC where it made bugger all difference.

 

So in answer to your question, with the amps that are available now (p122, P252 and P502) the Hypex modules have fixed input sections so you cant change them. The P701 monoblock available in Q2 can have different input buffers, however I see this as more of a marketing ploy than something of any real benefit.........and that's precisely why Hypex sell the amp without input buffer.  Its to allow manufacturers to deliberately shape the sound away from neutral as a marketing differentiator. My amps are designed to be neutral. Adding a "sound" to it by using an op amp that isnt anything but neutral (ie has worse performance) doesnt make much sense to me. :)

 

 

IMG20190209143933.jpg

Edited by March Audio

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21 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Have to ask, what do feel is horrible about IEC connectors?

Another amplifier was promoted in this group at about the same time as yours. It uses the vastly superior Neutrik Powercon™ mains connector. I mistakenly thought it was your product. I am sorry for the confusion.

 

If you wish to know why the Powercon™ is superior to all IEC connectors, examine the specs:

 

https://www.neutrik.com/en/products/audio/powercon

 

As to what is horrible about IEC connectors, well, pretty much everything.

They are not locking.

They are not wiping contacts.

They are not fully and completely specified (such as insertion numbers).

They are not available (AFAIK) in silver plated contact variants.

They require a non-round hole to be fabricated.

 

And, of course, none of this reflects on the quality of the product, just the mains connector used. And yes, I understand that many companies use the sub-standard, IEC mains connector. Doesn't make it the right choice, just the popular one.

Edited by Zaphod Beeblebrox

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1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Another amplifier was promoted in this group at about the same time as yours. It uses the vastly superior Neutrik Powercon™ mains connector. I mistakenly thought it was your product. I am sorry for the confusion.

 

If you wish to know why the Powercon™ is superior to all IEC connectors, examine the specs:

 

https://www.neutrik.com/en/products/audio/powercon

 

As to what is horrible about IEC connectors, well, pretty much everything.

They are not locking.

They are not wiping contacts.

They are not fully and completely specified (such as insertion numbers).

They are not available (AFAIK) in silver plated contact variants.

They require a non-round hole to be fabricated.

The powercons look like good connectors, but being totally non standard is not a good choice considering the likely benefits they offer, which is pretty much nothing relevant.

 

Im really sorry, this will probably upset you (hope not), but nothing in that list is anything that is really relevant to product performance.

 

IEC is a fit for purpose connector,  it does what is needed.  Going back to the question above, one of the things that differentiate March Audio is that is engineering led and does not indulge in...well... how shall I put it....audiophile foo.  You wont see Cryo treated silver woven by virgins mains leads with cable as thick as your arm.

Edited by March Audio

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Oh dear, Zaph has been hanging his hat on "IEC is crap" for ages..

 

He's not going to be happy 🙄

Edited by Yngvi

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1 hour ago, March Audio said:

The powercons look like good connectors, but being totally non standard is not a good choice considering the likely benefits they offer, which is pretty much nothing relevant.

The Neutrik Powercon™ is far from non-standard. They are used in a vast array of professional and scientific equipment, because they are high quality and completely and properly specified. IEC connectors and not.

 

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

 

Im really sorry, this will probably upset you (hope not), but nothing in that list is anything that is really relevant to product performance.

Well, not quite. Since the Neutrik Powercon™ uses wiping contacts and constant pressure, it's longevity and contact reliability, accompanied by full specifications on insertions, it is a superior choice to IEC connectors over the long term. That said, IF the IEC connector is never or rarely unplugged, then it will likely be a reasonable choice. Sound-wise, a new IEC connector will not sound different to a Neutrik Powercon™. As the connectors age and with repeated insertions, however, the IEC connector will degrade. Possibly to the point where some sonic degradation is noted.

 

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

 

IEC is a fit for purpose connector,  it does what is needed. 

 

Well, so does the RCA connector, but, like the RCA connector, there are better, more reliable choices.

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

Going back to the question above, one of the things that differentiate March Audio is that is engineering led and does not indulge in...well... how shall I put it....audiophile foo.  You wont see Cryo treated silver woven by virgins mains leads with cable as thick as your arm.

Let me be very clear: The Neutrik Powercon™ is not "audiophile foo". It is a modestly priced (far, far less expensive than some of the silly IEC connectors available), reliable and is THE choice for professional and scientific applications. In (very) small quantities, the Neutrik Powercon™ can be purchased for less than $20.00 per pair. That is a minuscule price to pay for a high quality, properly specified connector.

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Quote

Cryo treated silver woven by virgins

Everybody talks about this but no-one posts anything online about the production process. In my professional role I have read many inspection and test plans; the one for this process would be useful at training sessions, to wake everyone from their torpor.

 

Anyway, thread diversion. First, let me acknowledge the "wow" from Zaphod on the measurements, in my years here I have come to understand that such praise is not dispensed without careful consideration. Next, welcome to the forum. Third, and probably most important, about March Audio being engineering driven: with this as a philosophy, as a punter I think this is excellent and sincerely wish you success. The plethora of retail $5,000 boxes with $500 worth of components is the part of this hobby that drives me to despair.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

The Neutrik Powercon™ is far from non-standard. They are used in a vast array of professional and scientific equipment, because they are high quality and completely and properly specified. IEC connectors and not.

 

Well, not quite. Since the Neutrik Powercon™ uses wiping contacts and constant pressure, it's longevity and contact reliability, accompanied by full specifications on insertions, it is a superior choice to IEC connectors over the long term. That said, IF the IEC connector is never or rarely unplugged, then it will likely be a reasonable choice. Sound-wise, a new IEC connector will not sound different to a Neutrik Powercon™. As the connectors age and with repeated insertions, however, the IEC connector will degrade. Possibly to the point where some sonic degradation is noted.

 

Well, so does the RCA connector, but, like the RCA connector, there are better, more reliable choices.

Let me be very clear: The Neutrik Powercon™ is not "audiophile foo". It is a modestly priced (far, far less expensive than some of the silly IEC connectors available), reliable and is THE choice for professional and scientific applications. In (very) small quantities, the Neutrik Powercon™ can be purchased for less than $20.00 per pair. That is a minuscule price to pay for a high quality, properly specified connector.

Its not on one piece of domestic equipment that I have seen.  Its non standard in the domestic environment and Joe Ordinary will not be able to go to a local shop and get a cost effective replacement lead.  Also having come form a professional background using lots of scientific measurement and other kit I (and my colleagues) would be swearing like billio when we couldnt find the oddball mains connector to power up the kit when we had literally dozens of IEC mains leads hanging on the wall rack :)

 

How many times do you unplug your kit?  Its a non issue.

 

I have dozens of IEC connectors on dozens of bits of kit.   Their longevity and connection quality in domestic (and most non domestic) applications is just fine.

 

No RCA has issues. The major issue with RCA is that it is not balanced. It also breaks the shield before signal.  A better, cheap and standard technical solution is available (XLR).  The IEC connector however does everything it needs to well enough.

 

The Powercon is not audiophile foo. However you did mention silver plated.......... ;) ... 

 

As I previously said, it is a good connector.  Just one that IMO is not necessary on domestic audio equipment, is non standard and is significantly more expensive.  So therefore IMO not the right design choice.

 

So best to agree to disagree, there is no issue with having different opinions :)

 

 

 

 

Edited by March Audio

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38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Its not on one piece of domestic equipment that I have seen.  Its non standard in the domestic environment and Joe Ordinary will not be able to go to a local shop and get a cost effective replacement lead.  Also having come form a professional background using lots of scientific measurement and other kit I (and my colleagues) would be swearing like billio when we couldnt find the oddball mains connector to power up the kit when we had literally dozens of IEC mains leads hanging on the wall rack :)

I've already acknowledged that IEC leads are ubiquitous. Doesn't make them the best choice. Just the cheapest, easily available one.

As for availability, here's what I found after 30 seconds of searching:

 

https://au.element14.com/neutrik/nkpf-sr-a-5/pwr-cord-main-skt-schuko-plug/dp/2543797?MER=bn_level5_5NP_EngagementRecSingleItem_1

 

https://au.element14.com/neutrik/nkfca-15-0/lead-powercon-1-5m/dp/3886232?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2Irauaeu4AIVlg4rCh3t_wDpEAQYASABEgL2ufD_BwE&gross_price=true&mckv=snkbgIbge_dc|pcrid|59148083448|pkw||pmt||slid||product|3886232|pgrid|12550800888|ptaid|aud-112905144048:pla-295294719026|&CMP=KNC-GOO-SHOPPING-3886232

 

https://djcity.com.au/product/pcl2m-powercon-lead-2m/

 

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

How many times do you unplug your kit?  Its a non issue.

How many times do _I_ unplug IEC connectors? Not relevant, but it is in the thousands of times per year. And there's the rub: I have worn out IEC connectors. Some listeners plug and unplug frequently. In some cases, to the point where the connector is arcing. And yes, I have seen that. The tension on the female connector operates on a 'wing and a prayer' (regardless of price). It cannot occur with Neutrik Powercon™ connectors as they are true wiping contacts. It's a fabulous design, that has been very well engineered. The IEC connector, like the RCA connector has low cost as the prime driving factor behind it's design. 

 

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

I have dozens of IEC connectors on dozens of bits of kit.   Their longevity and connection quality in domestic (and most non domestic) applications is just fine.

Fair enough. I've found quite a few failures over the years. Neutrik Powercon™ connectors don't fail. Simple.

 

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

No RCA has issues. The major issue with RCA is that it is not balanced. It also breaks the shield before signal.  A better, cheap and standard technical solution is available (XLR).  The IEC connector however does everything it needs to well enough.

And, like the RCA connector (which has significant drawbacks, as you have stated correctly) it is time the industry moved away from the IEC connector to something of superior quality.

 

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

The Powercon is not audiophile foo. However you did mention silver plated.......... ;) ... 

Silver is the best conductor. It is used extensively in professional power applications. For good reason. That said, I remind you that some of the VERY expensive "audiophile foo" IEC connectors (some of which can cost orders of magnitude more than the Neutrik Powercon™) are gold plated! As you are no doubt well aware, gold is a vastly inferior conductor to silver and more seriously, is very soft and is plated very thinly, compared to the much superior and less expensive silver. Those Neutik engineers know EXACTLY what they're doing. Right materials for the job.

 

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

As I previously said, it is a good connector.  Just one that IMO is not necessary on domestic audio equipment, is non standard and is significantly more expensive.  So therefore IMO not the right design choice.

I agree that placing a Neutrik Powercon™ and lead on a (say) $1,000.00 product is likely to raise it's cost by, perhaps, $100.00 or so. On a high grade audio product, the difference will be far less significant and demonstrates a desire by the manufacturer to supply the best connectors available.

 

38 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

So best to agree to disagree, there is no issue with having different opinions :)

 

The Neutrik Powercon™ is already the power connector of choice for professional and scientific applications. It is just a matter of time that it, like the XLR connector, becomes the de-facto standard for high quality audio equipment. Of that you can be assured.

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17 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I've already acknowledged that IEC leads are ubiquitous. Doesn't make them the best choice. Just the cheapest, easily available one.

As for availability, here's what I found after 30 seconds of searching:

 

https://au.element14.com/neutrik/nkpf-sr-a-5/pwr-cord-main-skt-schuko-plug/dp/2543797?MER=bn_level5_5NP_EngagementRecSingleItem_1

 

https://au.element14.com/neutrik/nkfca-15-0/lead-powercon-1-5m/dp/3886232?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2Irauaeu4AIVlg4rCh3t_wDpEAQYASABEgL2ufD_BwE&gross_price=true&mckv=snkbgIbge_dc|pcrid|59148083448|pkw||pmt||slid||product|3886232|pgrid|12550800888|ptaid|aud-112905144048:pla-295294719026|&CMP=KNC-GOO-SHOPPING-3886232

 

https://djcity.com.au/product/pcl2m-powercon-lead-2m/

 

How many times do _I_ unplug IEC connectors? Not relevant, but it is in the thousands of times per year. And there's the rub: I have worn out IEC connectors. Some listeners plug and unplug frequently. In some cases, to the point where the connector is arcing. And yes, I have seen that. The tension on the female connector operates on a 'wing and a prayer' (regardless of price). It cannot occur with Neutrik Powercon™ connectors as they are true wiping contacts. It's a fabulous design, that has been very well engineered. The IEC connector, like the RCA connector has low cost as the prime driving factor behind it's design. 

 

Fair enough. I've found quite a few failures over the years. Neutrik Powercon™ connectors don't fail. Simple.

 

And, like the RCA connector (which has significant drawbacks, as you have stated correctly) it is time the industry moved away from the IEC connector to something of superior quality.

 

Silver is the best conductor. It is used extensively in professional power applications. For good reason. That said, I remind you that some of the VERY expensive "audiophile foo" IEC connectors (some of which can cost orders of magnitude more than the Neutrik Powercon™) are gold plated! As you are no doubt well aware, gold is a vastly inferior conductor to silver and more seriously, is very soft and is plated very thinly, compared to the much superior and less expensive silver. Those Neutik engineers know EXACTLY what they're doing. Right materials for the job.

 

I agree that placing a Neutrik Powercon™ and lead on a (say) $1,000.00 product is likely to raise it's cost by, perhaps, $100.00 or so. On a high grade audio product, the difference will be far less significant and demonstrates a desire by the manufacturer to supply the best connectors available.

 

The Neutrik Powercon™ is already the power connector of choice for professional and scientific applications. It is just a matter of time that it, like the XLR connector, becomes the de-facto standard for high quality audio equipment. Of that you can be assured.

 

I dont agree with anything you say there, Powercon has no advantage for a piece of audio kit in a normal domestic environment, it just increases costs and is non standard. I would actually avoid domestic kit that used it as a consequence.

 

 I dont wish to have an argument about it.  You are entitled to your opinions.  We just need to agree to disagree :)

 

BTW an IEC is $5 in officeworks. ;)

Edited by March Audio

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11 minutes ago, March Audio said:

I would actually avoid domestic kit that used it.

 

Ok, your now losing my vote. 

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20 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

BTW an IEC is $5 in officeworks. ;)

And it’s available over the counter,  7 days a week!   @ Bunnings too! 

 

I don’t see many audio equipment using what @Zaphod Beeblebrox Is suggesting not to say that they are not superior.   But IEC is convienent standard around the world, not that it doesn’t have issues, and @Zaphod Beeblebrox has pointed out! Lots of disadvantage,  if it’s been physically stressed with equipment that draws huge amount of current that’s close to 2400W, has the potential to overheat and in some severe cases electrical fire,  hence the equipment I work on now have brackets to lock them in.

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