Silent Screamer Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Which solid thinking was that? The explanations in the video range from optimising (or over optimising) the wrong thing (eg. lowering inductance) .... through to complete nonsense (a shield connected at one end to the RCA barrel, will "shunt away the noise to ground") There's no reason why 2 wires, spaced apart like in the video can't sound great ..... but you're giving up shielding for nothing. A coaxial cable is also just two wires spaced apart (one is just inside the other) ..... and it allows you to protect the vulnerable one. Separating them doesn't change the resistance (did he make that claim?). It is important to get the wires away from each other, but only far enough.... that can be done with a coaxial cable. That was the point of my linking the video to comment on Paul experience. I don't understand enough about electronics to interpret his finding, but he said separating the wires made some electrical change, which resulted in a sound change. Perhaps if you watch the video you could tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: What I meant is someone has a lifeless system and using a cable made of unobtainium seems to improve this, whereas the next guy has a system which is too revealing so the unobtainium cable makes the problem worse, so getting into a debate about cables is futile unless we all have the exact same systems, in the exact same rooms, playing the exact same music etc etc etc. See how much of a mistake it is to pay any attention to "listening tests". If the people have systems like this .... then it's not due to the cable.... and they should fix the problem at the source, if they want high performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: That was the point of my linking the video to comment on Paul experience. I don't understand enough about electronics to interpret his finding, but he said separating the wires made some electrical change, which resulted in a sound change. Perhaps if you watch the video you could tell me. Oh, I thought you said it was "solid thinking". Cool.... Have a look at my other posts here, and you'll see Did he actually say (I haven't got time to watch again) that it affected the resistance? (cos it doesn't, i'm sure he didn't cos he would know that ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: Oh, I thought you said it was "solid thinking". Cool.... Have a look at my other posts here, and you'll see Did he actually say (I haven't got time to watch again) that it affected the resistance? (cos it doesn't, i'm sure he didn't cos he would know that ) As I said before I am not electronically inclined so I didn't fully understand what electrical changes he said it was making just that it was making changes, and those changes made a difference. Whether that is measured or imagined I don't know. Hence my desire for input based on his video to get an idea if he is full of crap or if there is something in what he is saying to look at the way we view interconnects. f that translates into improvement one might consider that solid thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: Nothing to do with strength.... rather not having the right equipment/skill So you get a quality crimping kit and practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HdB Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I would suggest to end this interminable discussion, Silent Screamer, is to simply get a couple of bits of wire and make up some simple tape interconnects and try it out for yourself - a simple experiment - I still have some cryoed UPOCC insulated wire from Chimera Labs if you want to get fancy ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstream Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: That's essentially what I am trying to delve into. I have spent literally thousands of dollars on what I would call minimal return interconnects, so that is why I don't want to get into a he say, she say debate about high end commercial interconnects I have no intention of buying. Rather I am interested in experiences like yours based on solid thinking and a different approach to DIY that might yield better results from far cheaper cables. I was mostly interested in Paul's claims that separating the wires can lower the resistance / capacitance on any wires, resulting in better sound without spending any more money. Thank you. I haven't measured any of my cables over the years, subjective results rule for me and I know others who are polar opposites. All good. For anyone who hasn't tried any of the superb Mogami cable - of varying descriptions - I can highly recommend the stuff to you. It's not used in the finest of sound studios world wide for nothing! All of my headphones use cables created from Mogami #2893 quad core microphone cable, it's very well put together .. as you'd expect, utterly silent in having the blackest of backgrounds, is superbly evenly balanced, will effortlessly allow for a real 3D soundstage should it be on the recording and will NOT highlight the upper mids, like so many other cables often seem to do - this is not something I personally enjoy! I buy from an address I'll give below, although there is also an eBay seller called Venus Audio that has them already made up, ICs too, from memory. I have some Mogami interconnect cable due tomorrow, as I am keen to make up a selection of cables, ranging from replacing the ageing cable from my turntable, to varying lengths of IC between gear. I find that the BULLET plugs are exceptional and continue the simple and clean connection process, having three ICs with them. I have also added the Mogami OZ catalogue below. Paul is a lovely guy, available only on mobile phone and will get back to you asap if necessary. CAT 6 cable can cheaply be used to make paralleled cables (as in the video) by separating the conductors and using them individually, or for internal wiring, which I have done on a number of occasions to good effect. The No 2893 Mogami cable has transformed not only my Senn HD540 Ref1s, but also the Sony MDR-1R, Denon AH-D1000, HD6XX (when I had them, the Ref1s ran all over them for their organically natural musical replay of virtually everything) and HifiMAN HE400S (expanding the soundstage and lessening the peak in the lower treble). I am very keen to hear what they might do as interconnects .... I have a very VERY good reference in the Slinkylinks. I suspect they could be rather excellent, if my experiences with the headphone cables are anything to go by, despite the differing cable construction. The headphone cables cost me around $30-$50 each to make up, depending on connector quality, compare that to the $600+ asked for some HP cables! From what I've heard on-line, the Mogami either comes close to the very finest, or is preferable to some very popular and quite expensive 'upgrade' cables who can remain nameless. There is an effortless natural presentation of music through them, although they will not act as tone controls or hide weaknesses in the source. Paul's phone number is: 0418 114 143 at Movie Mirage Pty LtdPlease Contact Us On 0418 114 143 495922-MOGAMI CATALOGUE 2014.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstream Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Just though I'd add that I heard from Paul (Mogami OZ, not McGowan) that the coax cable is not recommended for speaker cable and is not used in studios for good reason .... not that I fully understand why that is Apparently, they make rather good .. and very under valued and under-rated speaker cable. I shall try some shortly and get back to youse all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 29 minutes ago, HdB said: I would suggest to end this interminable discussion, Silent Screamer, is to simply get a couple of bits of wire and make up some simple tape interconnects and try it out for yourself - a simple experiment - I still have some cryoed UPOCC insulated wire from Chimera Labs if you want to get fancy ... I posted the question in the vein hope of getting some subjective input, but I am having a very hard time being understood, as most of my question are taken off in a tangent, no where near what I am originally asking. Unless you ask questions in a manner the is so pin point precise, that it is impossible to misconstrue, then we keep ending up down rabbit holes. Due to limited understanding I don't know how to ask the questions any better to get a proper answer. I thought posting a link to a video asking for comments on the validity of the video would be simple enough... You know watch the video and comment based on knowledge or personal experience if it was true, or if it was worth trying this DIY route for better results. I am not trying to currently build any new cables, as I have spent a fortune of Furatech cables (wisely or not I don't know, that's what I am trying to glean). What I was hoping to find out from discussion was if there was a better wheel or mousetrap out there. i.e most interconnect cables look very similar and are constructed using the same basic methods. Putting it another way when I was a young lad at college learning about cars, they used to quote energy efficiency figures of car engines down at like something around 20%. Progress brought about change, we may be at say 40% efficient now (no we don't need discussion on it). But compared to 75-90% efficiency of electric motors, petrol engines can't possible compare regardless of what wire is used, or what insulation material separates the wires, it is just variations of the same old same old, with mild improvements in efficiency. What I was trying to find out was if there was any merit in thinking outside the box to split the wires like Paul was talking about or it is complete and utter snake oil and it wouldn't make any difference if you used coat hangers for cables. I don't want to throw any more good money after bad trying this latest and greatest cable because it has added newness to it, or special medicinal properties. Just wanting to discuss if there is any merit to Paul's thinking... i.e. can it make a difference, or are we talking another set of off the ground cable holders here? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstream Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: I posted the question in the vein hope of getting some subjective input, but I am having a very hard time being understood, as most of my question are taken off in a tangent, no where near what I am originally asking. Unless you ask questions in a manner the is so pin point precise, that it is impossible to misconstrue, then we keep ending up down rabbit holes. Due to limited understanding I don't know how to ask the questions any better to get a proper answer. I thought posting a link to a video asking for comments on the validity of the video would be simple enough... You know watch the video and comment based on knowledge or personal experience if it was true, or if it was worth trying this DIY route for better results. I am not trying to currently build any new cables, as I have spent a fortune of Furatech cables (wisely or not I don't know, that's what I am trying to glean). What I was hoping to find out from discussion was if there was a better wheel or mousetrap out there. i.e most interconnect cables look very similar and are constructed using the same basic methods. Putting it another way when I was a young lad at college learning about cars, they used to quote energy efficiency figures of car engines down at like something around 20%. Progress brought about change, we may be at say 40% efficient now (no we don't need discussion on it). But compared to 75-90% efficiency of electric motors, petrol engines can't possible compare regardless of what wire is used, or what insulation material separates the wires, it is just variations of the same old same old, with mild improvements in efficiency. What I was trying to find out was if there was any merit in thinking outside the box to split the wires like Paul was talking about or it is complete and utter snake oil and it wouldn't make any difference if you used coat hangers for cables. I don't want to throw any more good money after bad trying this latest and greatest cable because it has added newness to it, or special medicinal properties. Just wanting to discuss if there is any merit to Paul's thinking... i.e. can it make a difference, or are we talking another set of off the ground cable holders here? True, I may have gone off on a tangent myself there So, in answer to your original question: Yes I have and Paul's thinking does have merit in my experience. Great results. Will experiment again now using Paul's suggestions and see if I get different results than I did years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 20, 2019 Author Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Lightstream said: True, I may have gone off on a tangent myself there So, in answer to your original question: Yes I have and Paul's thinking does have merit in my experience. Great results. Will experiment again now using Paul's suggestions and see if I get different results than I did years ago. You've actually been one of the more on topic posters. I wasn't referring to just this thread but my posts in generally. Was wondering if it was just me that can't put a decent question together, but I can't be getting every post worded wrong. Would be good to hear the results if you do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstream Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Silent Screamer said: You've actually been one of the more on topic posters. I wasn't referring to just this thread but my posts in generally. Was wondering if it was just me that can't put a decent question together, but I can't be getting every post worded wrong. Would be good to hear the results if you do. Will be in touch during the week. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HdB Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Ah, right 'S', I'll dig up my old DNM ribbon and add some KLEs and have a listen again and see what happens - I have a 'cable burner' coming from Hagermann soon so that'll speed things up a lot - somewhere, I have a pair of that fancy Chimera Labs wired ICs around and will unbraid them and try the simple ribbon/tape idea and give them a run too - it's rather interesting, eh! Yes, it's rather surprisingly difficult to get appropriate replies that relate directly to specific questions, or maybe just an opportunity to pass on good advice even though it maybe off topic. Mind you, the inability to read clearly does continually surprise me, especially in people from an engineering background. …showing my GOM (grumpy old man) syndrome now! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_mike Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Aside from this discussion, I give full credit to the OP for admitting he has parted with wads of good money, and feels he has had no return for it. Most, I feel, would trip over their ego long before admitting that they had possibly made a poor decision, preferring to proliferate a possible myth. Not referring to anyone in particular of cause. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 17 hours ago, t_mike said: Aside from this discussion, I give full credit to the OP for admitting he has parted with wads of good money, and feels he has had no return for it. Most, I feel, would trip over their ego long before admitting that they had possibly made a poor decision, preferring to proliferate a possible myth. Not referring to anyone in particular of cause. My pride has long since been shown the door. I know beyond any doubt I don't know anywhere near what some people here commenting know, despite being at this stuff for decades. I don't have the attention span to read article after article I don't understand (besides not being a natural reader), or worse know that I won't retain it. I have a pitiful memory. That's why I like to ask generic questions, because if I am going to have half of a chance of retaining it I can't afford to get too bogged down in the detail. Occasionally I do find some value in these off topic discussions, and pick up the odd nugget of gold I wasn't expecting, but unfortunately for the most part it goes over my head and I leave the discussion to those that might benefit from it. As for making poor decision. I am the first to admit I was sucked in by salesmen fast talking pitch about interconnects, and why you need the latest and greatest. I do to some degree believe that they believed what they were saying was right, but to date I have not found the improvements to be had, anywhere near in line with the dollars spent, and I do feel a little ripped off in some of my purchases. It is for this reason I am on the look out for improvements and ways to avoid being ripped off. And in the last few years I have started to adopt a bit of a wire is just wire attitude. But knowing I don't know everything I am having to remain open minded to make sure I don't miss some golden opportunity for simple change. Like so many have professed before... You can't hear any difference by changing a power cable, yet the greatest difference I have heard have come from a power cable change, and not an interconnect. I am reluctant to spend crazy money on fuses because again it might be more snake oil. So I send out these little probes from time to time to try sort fact from fiction. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstream Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Pretty much agree with you. My 8 or 9 year old pure silver Slinkylinks ICs cost me about $430NZ at the time and the matching speaker cables $460 for 2 x 2M lengths, expensive for me at the time, but having heard some costing far more than that over the years, none have actually been BETTER as a whole and certainly not as a 'whole-greater-than-the-sum-of-the-parts' as running these two items together, a synergy and purity that leaves me with no desire to look for anything else. They prove themselves to me time and time again. I do use (when the gear allows for them) well made and very well shielded power cables, not that I hear an awful lot of difference, compared to using lesser cables than the Slinkylinks. I might add that the difference in SQ between using a stock USB cable from laptop to DAC and a Kimber USB cable (well reviewed in HIFI News some years back) is very noticeable! No contest, a hundred bucks well spent. That oughta rile a couple of folks However, back on topic, I have dug out some solid core CAT 6 cable and am about to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Lightstream said: However, back on topic, I have dug out some solid core CAT 6 cable and am about to play. For spkr cables, I presume? I'm a big fan of using Cat5/6 solid core cable for spkr cables (I use Belden 1585A - which is solid core with teflon insulation, instead of PVC, on each strand). For ancillary speakers in other rooms (up to 15m away), I simply use 1 'jacket' (4 twisted pairs) to each spkr terminal - as these ancillary spkrs don't have to be "hi fi". For normal lengths (up to, say, ~3m), I again use 8 tps - and use the solid-colour wires of each tp for '+ve' and the striped wires for '-ve'. This gives the lowest inductance possible - but the penalty is relatively high capacitance ... 1700pF for a 3m length. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstream Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 No, not in this case, single solid core conductors to make a parallel pair as in Paul's video suggestion. I did use whole cable for speakers many years ago (or the CAT 2/3/4 at the time), but it's not my intention at this time. It certainly would be high capacitance, however, this idea can be used to make Litz cables for other uses as well, such as the famous Hafler amp mods running Litz cable from the power supply to the boards, something I have done with my kit amp. I also did this in the '80s with internal speaker cable, to woofers in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, andyr said: For spkr cables, I presume? I'm a big fan of using Cat5/6 solid core cable for spkr cables (I use Belden 1585A - which is solid core with teflon insulation, instead of PVC, on each strand). For ancillary speakers in other rooms (up to 15m away), I simply use 1 'jacket' (4 twisted pairs) to each spkr terminal - as these ancillary spkrs don't have to be "hi fi". For normal lengths (up to, say, ~3m), I again use 8 tps - and use the solid-colour wires of each tp for '+ve' and the striped wires for '-ve'. This gives the lowest inductance possible - but the penalty is relatively high capacitance ... 1700pF for a 3m length. Andy So am I to assume you wouldn't use solid core cat 6 (or any other) for say lengths like 10? Sounds like this wire might be good for internal speaker wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 On 19/01/2019 at 2:47 PM, HdB said: My opinion, for what it's worth, is the ICs are just another component in the signal chain and so are subject to the components connected and this doesn't seem to be the passive tested parameters but rather, a combination of circuit type, impedance loading, and all those intangible things that really add up to 'guesswork' ... but these things aren't intangible or guess work. For example, the knowledge of the impedance in a cable/connected devices ... is one of the things which says to put one of the conductors around the other one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HdB Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Well Dave, perhaps some people can relate measured IC characteristics to a specific sound but unfortunately, I'm not one of them - for some strange reason, I did expect the $s spent on Audioquest, MIT, Chord, etc, etc cables to sound perfect in my system but they don't - perhaps in other systems they might. This is why I say that you have to try them in your own system to see if the result appeals to your hearing, not the measuring instrument. Perhaps designing a sound system sound on component specifications is the best way of organizing things but it doesn't seem to work well in my experience - maybe this works for you, but not me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Lightstream said: No, not in this case, single solid core conductors to make a parallel pair as in Paul's video suggestion. Aah, a tp for interconnects. No, I myself would not do that as: if you buy unshielded Cat6 - then, yes, you can separate out one tp from the other 3 tps ... but this tp is unshielded if you buy shielded Cat6 - then you have 3 more tps that you're not using (under the shield) ... so what's the point? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: So am I to assume you wouldn't use solid core cat 6 (or any other) for say lengths like 10? If you mean 10 metres, SS - then, yes, I said I used it up to 15m. Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightstream Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, andyr said: Aah, a tp for interconnects. No, I myself would not do that as: if you buy unshielded Cat6 - then, yes, you can separate out one tp from the other 3 tps ... but this tp is unshielded if you buy shielded Cat6 - then you have 3 more tps that you're not using (under the shield) ... so what's the point? Andy Ah, but I would, have and did! The point is Andy, that years ago when I used two totally unshielded single conductors in a parallel taped cable per channel exactly as Paul described, I had brilliant results. Quiet, clean, precise imaging. It works as a very simple and cheap way to make your own cables, which, as I understand it is what Paul was getting at in answer to the viewer's question. There are none of the apparent effects of multiple stranded cables interacting with each other, the effects of which with the cables I've heard previously and have to hand here, add smearing and grain, varying between the cable structures. They may sound good overall, they just simply are nowhere near as pure tonally as my silver cables which have minimal structural interaction. I'm a fan of silver, but my copper cables worked the same way. Only moments ago, I was listening to my home-made pure silver ICs that have two 0.25mm conductors loose within a Teflon tube per polarity, the results are so close to the far more expensive Slinkylinks - relatively - that I could happily live with them if needed. They would come at under 1/4 of the price, as the Bullett plugs are around $100 a set of four .. or were. Each pair of conductors is enclosed in a fairly loose fitting plastic braid. These simple ICs easily best many braided cables I've heard. Using my QP1R DAP into the Mimby and the silver cables into the Magni 3, the Ref1s show how superbly clean the sound is, playing the brilliant recording of Ry Cooder and Ali Farka Toure's Talking Timbuktu, try Sega and Ai Du. Also Ricki Lee Jones live album "Naked Songs", even the finale with Autumn Leaves where Ricki is just singing with bass guitar for accompaniment, there is a highly suppressed sneeze from someone in the audience that can easily be missed. Not so here, it surprised my that it was so clear at such a low level, suspended in space, not blurred by other noise. There is no trace whatsoever of electrical noise from anywhere, volume on full, nada, utter silence. The point of Paul's video was "Just do it", in my view. Try it for yourself (generically) and see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, HdB said: Well Dave, perhaps some people can relate measured IC characteristics to a specific sound I doubt anyone can do that ... as it depends on the source/receiver equipment, etc. I wasn't at all talking about subjective evaluation/listening. 3 hours ago, HdB said: This is why I say that you have to try them in your own system to see if the result appeals to your hearing I think this is a mistake. Get cables which don't have defective performance ..... if you don't like the sound, then find the problem (it's elsewhere) and fix it at the source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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