HT AVR with preouts & power amp for Kef LS50

[G-Dubz]

Hi team, 

 

I recently purchased Kef LS50's from SNA's classifieds section which I'm really excited about.

It's my first foray into the audiophile world of hifi & speakers. Have already learnt a lot from just a few days of research and I am keen to find a receiver with preouts +/- poweramp to help get the most out of the Kef's. 

We just moved into a small 2 bedroom apartment but the open plan living area is reasonable sized about 4x5m. I'm planning on starting with 2.0/2.1 set up first, then potentially moving to 3.1 if necessary. 

I would be using it mainly in a home theatre setting - 50% movies/netflix, 30% music, 20% xbox but since this is my first audiophile level purchase I was hoping to do the LS50's justice and drive them with something reasonable. For the AVR, I'd only need 2 HDMI ports at this stage for NVidia Shield & Xbox, but more the merrier I guess and don't have a 4k TV, still fairly happy with a 50" panasonic 1080p plasma ST. I don't use spotify or other streaming, but bluetooth/wifi to play flacs via NAS would be a bonus but not necessary.

 

I was hoping to just get some guidance on the types of AVR's I should be looking for on the forums to suit my needs? A yammy RXA680 has been suggested, would there be any other good older models to look for that might pop up regularly? I've read that the LS50 wireless speakers are so good in part due to the internal 200W amp & DSP's in them, is it a matter of more output the better? We won't be listening to music/movies at an extremely loud volume to avoid neighbour complaints. 

 

I've auditioned a few new AVR's and the Marantz SR6013 & Yamaha RX-A2080 both sounded great and they are $2k each. However, I won't be using any of the fancy new trimmings they come with for at least 3-4 years while we in a small apartment. I've also read that regular mid tier AVR's aren't sufficient to really drive the LS50's which has prompted me to think about a budget AVR with a poweramp.  

 

Buget would be about $1-2k all up for AVR +/- poweramp. 

 

Thanks in advance! 

Edited January 12, 2019 by G-Dubz
Addition

[Irek]

Hi,

If you have only 2 speakers than there is no point to get AVR. You need reasonably good integrated amplifier with DAC.  

Arcam A39 stereo integrated amplifier was recommended as a good match with LS50. The new Arcam HDA SA20 should be good as well and has a DAC build in. You can connect your Xbox and Nvidia to TV (HDMI) and from TV to amplifier by optical cable. 

It would be nice to have subwoofer for movies, something like Rel T5i is good for music and reasonably good for movies in small room. If you plan to use the integrated in the future as a power amp than you need HT bypass option.  

[G-Dubz]

27 minutes ago, Irek said:

Hi,

If you have only 2 speakers than there is no point to get AVR. You need reasonably good integrated amplifier with DAC.  

Arcam A39 stereo integrated amplifier was recommended as a good match with LS50. The new Arcam HDA SA20 should be good as well and has a DAC build in. You can connect your Xbox and Nvidia to TV (HDMI) and from TV to amplifier by optical cable. 

It would be nice to have subwoofer for movies, something like Rel T5i is good for music and reasonably good for movies in small room. If you plan to use the integrated in the future as a power amp than you need HT bypass option.  

Many thanks for your reply Irek. Will look into an integrated amp option. 

 

Not many A39's are around 2nd hand 

https://a1futureshop.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=355&search=arcam

 

As I'm not being from Sydney, is A1 Future shop a reliable seller? 

 

Thanks for the HDA SA20 suggestion too, that is cheaper also despite being newer, is it not as good as the A39 in some respects? https://www.avforums.com/review/arcam-sa20-integrated-amplifier-review.15164 

Doesn't seem to come with bluetooth which is a slight pity

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by G-Dubz

[SteveC]

back to an AVR but the NAD t758 v3 is worth a look, good honest power for your LS50 and you can always upgrade to power amps later if you really need it. You will have unused amp channels but no big deal.

[Chill3]

I think start with a good stereo amp with HT bypass, you can add the AV reciever later. With a AV reciever and stereo or 2,1 system your paying for lots of things you don’t need and hence getting cheaper built things you do. You could add a power amp but I think that will cost about the same as a stereo intergrated in any case.

 

 

 

[Snoopy8]

On 12/01/2019 at 12:11 PM, G-Dubz said:

I would be using it mainly in a home theatre setting - 50% movies/netflix, 30% music, 20% xbox ...

For the AVR, I'd only need 2 HDMI ports at this stage for NVidia Shield & Xbox, ...

Those 2 requirements suggests you should get a AVR.  It is on the high end of your budget, but you should investigate and audition the NAD T58V3.

[G-Dubz]

8 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Those 2 requirements suggests you should get a AVR.  It is on the high end of your budget, but you should investigate and audition the NAD T58V3.

Thank you for your suggestions. Will head to Melbourne hifi and take a look at the NAD. 

 

Just wondering about thoughts regarding the Primare sp33 in the classifieds for my needs? with the poweramp? I don't need 4k at this stage, and it's again out of my price range and potentially overkill but the poweramp could be used in a subsequent Atmos HT setup in several years time? Potentially more amp/speakers than I will need for an apartment without surround sound. 

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by G-Dubz

[Snoopy8]

3 hours ago, G-Dubz said:

Just wondering thoughts regarding this? with the poweramp? I don't need 4k at this stage, and it's again out of my price range and potentially overkill but the poweramp could be used in a subsequent Atmos HT setup in several years time? 

The NAD T58V3 has only 7 amps in total, enough  for 5.1.2 Atmos setup. You will need additional power amps if you want to go beyond that in the future

 

4K is only pass through, no video processing in most AVRs.

[G-Dubz]

10 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

The NAD T58V3 has only 7 amps in total, enough  for 5.1.2 Atmos setup. You will need additional power amps if you want to go beyond that in the future

 

4K is only pass through, no video processing in most AVRs.

Many thanks for your reply. 

 

Just wondering about thoughts between a new NAD T758V3 vs the 2nd hand primare sp33 seperates which costs more, higher quality lasting power amp but without Atmos capability for the future. Cheers 

[Snoopy8]

23 minutes ago, G-Dubz said:

Just wondering about thoughts between a new NAD T758V3 vs the 2nd hand primare sp33 seperates which costs more, higher quality lasting power amp but without Atmos capability for the future. Cheers 

Dirac Live is what makes the T58V3 so good for movies and music.  Plus properly rated multiple channel power.

 

No experience with Primare. A seperate multi channel power amp is the better option if budget and space permits. Pair it with a prepro or a mid to high level AVR with preouts will give you the best outcome.  

 

But with a limited budget, you could start with the T758V3 and add/change other components later?

[G-Dubz]

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Dirac Live is what makes the T58V3 so good for movies and music.  Plus properly rated multiple channel power.

 

No experience with Primare. A seperate multi channel power amp is the better option if budget and space permits. Pair it with a prepro or a mid to high level AVR with preouts will give you the best outcome.  

 

But with a limited budget, you could start with the T758V3 and add/change other components later?

Thanks, will read up on Dirac. I found a great thread on SNA on manual calibration by CAVX - fascinating stuff. Is that a reasonable substitute for Dirac?

 

There's so much awesome info on this site, love it. Will donate. 

 

I've decided to just yolo, skip a weekend away, dive into the deep end and go with the Primare seperates and will upgrade the older Primare pre/pro to an Atmos/4k capable receiver in several years. Although the primare is meant to be upgradeable too. 

 

Will have to figure out how to get Bluetooth working on it though 

 

Very excited to embark on my first audiophile journey! I think I'll stick with this for a while! 

Edited January 14, 2019 by G-Dubz

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, G-Dubz said:

Thanks, will read up on Dirac. I found a great thread on SNA on manual calibration by CAVX - fascinating stuff. Is that a reasonable substitute for Dirac?

I suspect manual calibration is not a substitute for decent room calibration software such as Dirac Live

1 hour ago, G-Dubz said:

Will have to figure out how to get Bluetooth working on it though 

Pity you are not going the NAD T58V3 route, has as standard Bluetooth and BluOS

[Primare Knob]

If you're just starting out I would keep things simple. An AVR + Poweramp is a bit unnecessary.

The improvement in the wireless LS50 will have more to do with the DSP tunning of the speaker and the lack of an analogue cross over. Don't mix this type of DSP up with the DSP in home theatre, they are the same but work in different areas.

Power ratings are overrated, and have more to do with the efficiency of the speakers and the desired output sound pressure.

If you run 2 speakers with perhaps a Sub, I would not put to much value in room correction. Most subs these days come with room correction, and that is where you want to use it. The rest I would leave to clever acoustic treatment and proper software to measure it. Not all seemingly problems are problematic.

I would start with an AVR, and later upgrade with an integrated 2 channel amp if you desire and looking to get more out of your music. For HDMI connectivity the AVR or PrePro is king.

Be careful when adding a sub to the LS50's. If you overdoing it, you will start to loose the magic of these speakers.

[Chill3]

16 hours ago, G-Dubz said:

Thanks, will read up on Dirac. I found a great thread on SNA on manual calibration by CAVX - fascinating stuff. Is that a reasonable substitute for Dirac?

 

There's so much awesome info on this site, love it. Will donate. 

 

I've decided to just yolo, skip a weekend away, dive into the deep end and go with the Primare seperates and will upgrade the older Primare pre/pro to an Atmos/4k capable receiver in several years. Although the primare is meant to be upgradeable too. 

 

Will have to figure out how to get Bluetooth working on it though 

 

Very excited to embark on my first audiophile journey! I think I'll stick with this for a while! 

The Primare separates will be awesome - real quality with focus on sound quality ! - just get  chrome cast for wireless / bluetooth - easy and cheap 

 

Enjoy

 

[Jventer]

@G-Dubz

Dont make things too complicated. 

Room correction, in whatever format you choose, is not really that important. I would like to stress this - dont go down this rabbit hole. (You could, but then you have to mutilply your budget.)

What is important is proper amplification and your physical room. 

The LS50 has fantastic specs and as othe members have said the only thing you may want to add is a sub. And such a sub may need room correction or proper placement.

Important:

• If you just want to do 2.1 just buy a good OLD AVR and move on. For example you can get a top of the range Pioneer here in the classifieds for less than $300 plus shipping.
• Alternatively buy the cheapest AVR with pre outs and a proper integrated amp.

Anyway, we all are on a journey, enjoy.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Jventer
Typo

[Snoopy8]

33 minutes ago, Jventer said:

@G-Dubz

Dont make things too complicated. 

Room correction, in whatever format you choose, is not really that important. I would like to stress this - dont go down this rabbit hole. (You could, but then you have to mutilply your budget.)

Have you tried room correction software such as Dirac Live or Anthem Room Correction?  It makes a big difference!

[Jventer]

2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Have you tried room correction software such as Dirac Live or Anthem Room Correction?  It makes a big difference!

Yes I have, with 7 and or 5 speakers and a sub. And yes it does make some difference. And I have stopped using it.

I have also experienced listening to a system with DEQX, which was replaced with a passive system with better results. 

The OP's budget is limited and he is only wanting to use 2 speakers and a sub.

Room correction cannot fix everything that is wrong with a system and room and it needs more investment, effort and work. if you have the budget - go for it - for a person like me I would rather spend some money on proper  equipment and the room.

There are a few members that say this, but it appears that it does not sink in - the important thing is THE ROOM. As in real estate the 3 most important things are location, location, location.

As an aside - Nad does not have the best history of reliability

 

 

[G-Dubz]

2 hours ago, Jventer said:

@G-Dubz

Dont make things too complicated. 

Room correction, in whatever format you choose, is not really that important. I would like to stress this - dont go down this rabbit hole. (You could, but then you have to mutilply your budget.)

What is important is proper amplification and your physical room. 

The LS50 has fantastic specs and as othe members have said the only thing you may want to add is a sub. And such a sub may need room correction or proper placement.

Important:

• If you just want to do 2.1 just buy a good OLD AVR and move on. For example you can get a top of the range Pioneer here in the classifieds for less than $300 plus shipping.
• Alternatively buy the cheapest AVR with pre outs and a proper integrated amp.

Anyway, we all are on a journey, enjoy.

Thank you for the advice, I've gotten clearance by the better half to extend the budget into separates. Although good chance she changes her mind lol 

 

Your post is spot on which is a reflection of the quality advice on SNA. My more sensible self should've probably just stuck with my original budget but I have always wanted to get into the audiophile scene and I hope that this Primare sp33/30.7 set is a good introduction into the world of separates as I will look to still use the class D power amp with an updated AVR in several years if we move into a bigger place. 

 

Having said that, the active 200W LS50W's sound fantastic, and potentially more will filter into the second hand market. But the flexibility of separates would mean that I could move the passive LS50's on in favour of other speakers down the track and still have a good amp setup. Hopefully the 150W from the primare 30.7 will be a great driver for them too.

 

How much does a pre/pro affect the sound signature compared to a cheap AVR with preouts? My assumption was that preouts route all the sound to the external device so I assumed it would not affect it. But I've read that it becomes a combination of the 2 devices too. 

 

In regards to location, which is a great point also, we are renting so can't do anything to the place. It's just a fairly typical carpeted 5x4 open living apartment. 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by G-Dubz

[Snoopy8]

1 hour ago, Jventer said:

There are a few members that say this, but it appears that it does not sink in - the important thing is THE ROOM. As in real estate the 3 most important things are location, location, location.

Fully agree it is the room and location of speakers which are the most important. And yes, room treatment is the best first step. 

 

But, many of us do not have the luxury of a dedicated room. A shared room limits the amount of room treatment, locations to put system, all subject to WAF.  Room correction makes a big difference in situations like this.

 

Am using Dirac Live for HT and bass management for 2 channel.

 

P/s can cite examples of many brands having reliability problems. The NAD T58V3 is value for money and is highly rated in SNA's review.

[Primare Knob]

Thank you for the advice, I've gotten clearance by the better half to extend the budget into separates. Although good chance she changes her mind lol 
 
Your post is spot on which is a reflection of the quality advice on SNA. My more sensible self should've probably just stuck with my original budget but I have always wanted to get into the audiophile scene and I hope that this Primare sp33/30.7 set is a good introduction into the world of separates as I will look to still use the class D power amp with an updated AVR in several years if we move into a bigger place. 
 
Having said that, the active 200W LS50W's sound fantastic, and potentially more will filter into the second hand market. But the flexibility of separates would mean that I could move the passive LS50's on in favour of other speakers down the track and still have a good amp setup. Hopefully the 150W from the primare 30.7 will be a great driver for them too.
 
How much does a pre/pro affect the sound signature compared to a cheap AVR with preouts? My assumption was that preouts route all the sound to the external device so I assumed it would not affect it. But I've read that it becomes a combination of the 2 devices too. 
 
In regards to location, which is a great point also, we are renting so can't do anything to the place. It's just a fairly typical carpeted 5x4 open living apartment. 
 

A pre pro is often a dressed down AVR, the biggest difference are found in the power supplies. The more features you have to combine in a single solution the more compromises need to made.

The Audiophile world isn't the same as the HT world, both want good sound quality but HT has more reference guide lines, complicated requirements and bang to buck is far more expensive than 2 channel.

There is no difference in sound quality, and equipment doesn't discriminate between music and movies. But the number of channels, and audience members, and impact makes a difference, and so does the source material.

Doesn't mean that you have to follow any of the guide lines and can't enjoy a setup that isn't in line with it.

Be sure to give your equipment some room to breathe, heat isn't doing it any favours.

Take your time to do a proper speaker setup, that is acceptable with your other half. Find the compromises you have to make and which one you can compensate for. Don't let knowing to much get in the way of enjoyment.

With 2 channels, aim for the setup that produces clear dialogue. Nothing more annoying than cranking up the volume to hear dialogue

[G-Dubz]

On 15/01/2019 at 8:06 PM, Primare Knob said:

A pre pro is often a dressed down AVR, the biggest difference are found in the power supplies. The more features you have to combine in a single solution the more compromises need to made.

The Audiophile world isn't the same as the HT world, both want good sound quality but HT has more reference guide lines, complicated requirements and bang to buck is far more expensive than 2 channel.

There is no difference in sound quality, and equipment doesn't discriminate between music and movies. But the number of channels, and audience members, and impact makes a difference, and so does the source material.

Doesn't mean that you have to follow any of the guide lines and can't enjoy a setup that isn't in line with it.

Be sure to give your equipment some room to breathe, heat isn't doing it any favours.

Take your time to do a proper speaker setup, that is acceptable with your other half. Find the compromises you have to make and which one you can compensate for. Don't let knowing to much get in the way of enjoyment.

With 2 channels, aim for the setup that produces clear dialogue. Nothing more annoying than cranking up the volume to hear dialogue

Fantastic advice. Thank you. 

 

The amps & speakers are all good to go just on standby while I look for cables & a rack. 

 

Just wondering what sort of brands I should start looking at for entry-mid level copper only interconnects? And also what sort of entry level speaker wire would suit this setup? 

 

Cheers 

[Primare Knob]

Fantastic advice. Thank you. 
 
The amps & speakers are all good to go just on standby while I look for cables & a rack. 
 
Just wondering what sort of brands I should start looking at for entry-mid level copper only interconnects? And also what sort of entry level speaker wire would suit this setup? 
 
Cheers 

Brands don't really matter, just keep it affordable. Make sure the speaker cable has a proper gauge/size 1.5 - 2.5mm, and that your inter-connects are shielded

[G-Dubz]

11 hours ago, Primare Knob said:

Brands don't really matter, just keep it affordable. Make sure the speaker cable has a proper gauge/size 1.5 - 2.5mm, and that your inter-connects are shielded

Will do! 

Have been watching the classifieds like a hawk trying to pick up some cables & a rack lol narrowly missed out on a rack last week it's such an active scene. Very cool!