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GS' next speaker - TAD CR-1, ME-1, PMC MB2BSE, Magico?


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Hi Everyone,

 

The time has come to hopefully settle on a speaker that should keep me happy for the next 5 to 10 years. 

 

We've finally moved into our newly built house, and with that, I've got access to what will be my listening room. The room itself is small, very small: 3.5M x 3.5M. It's meant to be a study and is the first room you encounter when you enter the house, there isn't a door, but there is a doorway that opens up to a hallway that connects itself to the rest of the house. 

 

As you'd all well know the challenge with a room of this size is getting the most appropriate speaker that gives me the type of fidelity and resolution I'm pursuing, without overloading the room and compromising the rest of the system. The components that make up the system are:

 

Pre-Amplifier: Accuphase C2820

Power-Amplifier: Accuphase A70

Digital Front-end: Chord DAVE DAC + Blu Mk2 Upsampler

Speaker/Room Correction: DEQX Pre-Mate Plus

Speakers: ?

 

I listen to mostly electronica, but also enjoy modern classical, jazz, and soul. Dynamics, impact, and resolution are very important to me. You could argue that I enjoy speakers with a brighter tonality, however I subscribe to the theory that most speakers that play in the ball-park I'm looking at will deliver all the Dynamics, impact and resolution I'm looking for regardless of whether they fall on the warmer side (SF Guarneri Traditional or the new Dynaudio Contour range) or brighter side (TAD, Magico etc) of the tonal spectrum. I'm very much letting the room guide this next purchase.

 

I'll be using this thread to chronical my decision making with a hope to tap into the collective knowledge of this awesome community. 

 

My budget for my next speaker is $30K. Given the outlay, I'm not too keen on getting the selection wrong and having to sell them while taking a bath on the resale.

 

To complicate matters further I also have a pair of Pioneer S-1EX floor standers that I purchased last year that I intended on using as main speakers in my lounge room. They are currently at my parent's place and will be making their way down to my house in the coming weeks. I'm looking forward to this as I'll be able to put the big speaker + small room (plus room correction) theory to the test. For those that don't know the Pioneers employ similar magnesium and beryllium coaxial mid-range/tweeter as found in TAD's evolution line, all be it with a different cross-over, cabinet, and woofers. It could well be that what I'm looking for has been here along (story of my life!)

 

I have a few questions that I'd love your thoughts on:

 

Big Speakers vs Small Room

I'll be about 2 meters away from the speakers, and I suspect the tweeters of the Pioneers (and indeed most floor standers) would cross over behind my head. Will the deployment of the DEQX make accommodating bigger speakers in my room achievable? I note the DEQX technology allows for timing and room correction, however, am I expecting too much to allow me to deploy bigger speakers in a room my size? 

 

The Usual Suspects

With my budget some of the speakers I'll be considering include:

Magico A3 - All though stock availability appears to be an issue (apparently Magico can't keep up with demand)

Magico S3 Mk2 - Second hand  (if I can find a pair)

TAD CR1 - Second hand (if I can find a pair)

TAD ME-1 

Dynaudio's new Confidence range - all though this would mean I'd have to wait till April

PMC MB2SE's - I love everything about these speakers, and since the room they'll be going into is my own space my wife's interior design rules don't apply too much here. LOL, all though i'm sure they'll take her breath away in a slightly different way. My only concern does I have the amplifier to drive them. The A70 is 65 watts into 8 ohms, but is high current so it doubles down to 2 ohm without issue. 

Martin Logan ESL 11a - I listened to a pair of Martin Logan's at Lifestyle store last year and the speed and transparency they bought to the table was a revelation. The 11a comes with DSP and Anthem Room Correction, so it's an option. Again, only question I have is whether my amp can handle them.

 

So there you have it team. A classic SNA'r help me  spend my money thread if ever there was one! All input appreciated! :)

 

Cheers,

GS

 

 

 

 

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Any consideration for actives? I'm very sad I have to return a pair of Kii Threes that Ive been lucky to have in my setup over Xmas, hopefully a pair finds its way permanently into my system this year and I can dispense with the majority of separates. 

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There be some mighty fine speakers in your line up there. They're all also quite different so you'll get a fairly different sonic signature depending on what you're after. You'll obviously get a different opinion from everyone but I'd personally rule out the dynaudio myself. You unwittingly already expressed a preference for the PMC and they're a fine full range speaker to go with, but maybe even too big for your room. On the other hand, if you've experienced the magic of planar dipoles in the Martin Logans, you may find it hard to listen to boxed speakers again. Of those, however, I'd personally lean towards the Magicos, though getting them would be very hard, as you've already worked out... If your amp is stable and delivers high current into 2 ohms then you should be able to drive virtually any of these speakers without issue. I don't get what you're saying about the tweeters crossing over behind you; are you talking about the amount of toe-in? Room correction can do a lot to tame bass modes but can't do anything about nulls, and your room is unfortunately square which means you'll likely bigger nodes than you otherwise would. For what it's worth, my room's a study too and not a great deal bigger than yours, though I have dynamic dipole speakers (and heavy DSP room correction) which aren't anywhere in your line up.

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Maybe slightly over budget but what about the Wilson Audio duettes series 2?

 

Wilson Audio are well known for their dynamics, impact and resolution but these are supposed to be for designed for near boundary placement which should be useful in a small room.

 

Surely for the price range you’re looking at you can trial whatever you choose in your own room.

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My room is about 3.6 x 5m and the speakers lined on the longer wall length and seated back against wall within a  listening triangle of about 2.5m, speakers 0.8m from wall and this position works well so you should be able to get a reasonable setup.

 

I am not limited to using only standmount speakers and can use medium size floostanders and panel speakers. With head against wall the bass is enhanced but not overblown. Within this setup I can achieve very good imaging and no other issues I can notice, although using very tall and wide speakers does not work out as the space isn’t there to get into the sweet spot.

 

You have a shorter room but open space on one side so it should still work for you.

Edited by Al.M
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Some fantastic choices there GS.

 

I agree the Dynaudio Confidence may not be a great choice in that small a  room. I tried my C2’s in a similar sized room and it just didn’t work. they need more space. The new Confidence may be completely different however, but I’m not convinced they will be “that” different. They do however have the tweeter at a lower height which will help with clarity et. at close range.

 

The Wilson speakers sound like they may definitely be an option based on your sound sig preference description.

 

i think these could be added to your list. I have heard them and they offer excellent clarity and speed without being in your face or etched/bright;

 

http://consumer.e-e.com.au/audio/floorstanding-speakers/raidho-acoustics-c-2-1-reference-floorstanding-loudspeaker.html

 

Potentially you could go one better and import a pair of second hand d2.1 etc;

 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis994fh-raidho-d2-beautiful-piano-black-customer-trade-in-full-range

 

Also in this price range you have the big VA, they are nice too, and can work in slightly smaller rooms for a big speaker. they also work quite well with lower power amps, ie they work well with pass labs class a;

 

https://www.lifestylestore.com.au/vienna-acoustics-the-music-reference-floor-standing-speakers.html

 

Kef Reference 5 also sound quite nice and detailed with a good soundstage;

 

https://www.lifestylestore.com.au/kef-reference-5-floor-standing-speakers.html

 

wilson Bensch also potentially;

 

https://www.soundgallery.com.au/product-page/wilson-benesch-vector-speakers

 

Marten design;

 

https://www.soundgallery.com.au/product-page/marten-heritage-getz-2-floorstanding-loudspeakers

 

I second @hydrology ‘s recommendation of the KIi three, but sell your amps and add the bxt bass module. I was very surprised by the kii three alone, I imagine with the bxt module, it would be quite amazing, it would work in a smaller room also;

 

https://sonicpurity.com.au/store/active-speakers/kii-three

 

I think the PMC’s would be. very compelling long term though as long as they worked with your amp/s.

 

Good luck mate, i envy your position !

Edited by Ray H
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2 hours ago, Hydrology said:

Any consideration for actives? I'm very sad I have to return a pair of Kii Threes that Ive been lucky to have in my setup over Xmas, hopefully a pair finds its way permanently into my system this year and I can dispense with the majority of separates. 

Good suggestion. 

Possibly also consider D&D as apparently they work really well placed close to the front wall 

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If I was in your position, looking at keeping your main amp and the excellent DEQX (I use DEQX in my system too), 

I would buy the best and most cohesive sounding Stand Mounts or book shelf speakers that will match well with the amp. 

 

I will also buy a couple of Sub Woofers and integrate them with the mains using the DEQX. This way your amp is kept away from driving the demanding bottom end and using the DEQX you'll have much better control of the bass management and levels as it will be driven by a different amp to the mains. Integration with the sub and mains is seamless with the DEQX. 

 

I would look at Subs like the Rel G series, Rythmik etc. And book shelfs can be from the brands you were looking at Magico, Dynaudio, TAD etc.  

I have also been impressed Raidho.  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Black Orange said:

If I was in your position, looking at keeping your main amp and the excellent DEQX (I use DEQX in my system too), 

I would buy the best and most cohesive sounding Stand Mounts or book shelf speakers that will match well with the amp. 

 

I will also buy a couple of Sub Woofers and integrate them with the mains using the DEQX. This way your amp is kept away from driving the demanding bottom end and using the DEQX you'll have much better control of the bass management and levels as it will be driven by a different amp to the mains. Integration with the sub and mains is seamless with the DEQX. 

 

I would look at Subs like the Rel G series, Rythmik etc. And book shelfs can be from the brands you were looking at Magico, Dynaudio, TAD etc.  

I have also been impressed Raidho.  

 

 

The most appropriate advise so far, and yes Raidho are impressive.

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Your room dimensions are a problem as it’s a cube.  Very bad.  Would expect some bass problems that will need room treatment.

 

Have heard most of your possibles.  All are good.  I also love the mb2’s but not sure in so small a space.  The stands add to the already large size and they would dominate the room - maybe not a problem  Am certain the A70 would be fine.

 

My pic of your list would be the CR1’s ( but where to find them?  ) for your music preference.  Fast, slam, accurate, almost full range, imaging to die for - just fabulous  I have also heard the Raidho in a similar size room and they were utterly brilliant - just not sure they have the thump you may want if you like the mb2’s or the TAD.  Magico also good but not heard the A3’s.

 

Happy searching.  Whatever you end up with we will need pictures.

 

 

 

Edited by Steam
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10 hours ago, pond44 said:

I smell Fish, if you have soooo much money to spend on your “System” why the hell didn’t you put in for a bigger room? It ain’t going to work unless you start talking Headphones!

2

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here? As for, "why the hell" I "didn't put in for a bigger room", when it came to finalizing the design of my house the needs and requirements of my 3 kids, and wife was a higher priority for me than the size of my listening room. 

 

BTW,  not sure if the opening of your post was a cry for help, but, I've been told that the further away you are from a backwater, the less pervasive the smell of fish. Bathing regularly, and maintaining a decent standard of hygiene tends to help as well. 

Edited by Galactic Soap
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14 hours ago, Hydrology said:

Any consideration for actives? I'm very sad I have to return a pair of Kii Threes that Ive been lucky to have in my setup over Xmas, hopefully a pair finds its way permanently into my system this year and I can dispense with the majority of separates. 

 

A pair of actives would have absolutely been part of the equation (either the Kii's or the 8C's as suggested), however, I've already invested in a set of separates I feel complement each other beautifully and would like to experience this system for at least the next 5 years before parting it out (and potentially wearing a loss on resale). 

 

14 hours ago, Ittaku said:

There be some mighty fine speakers in your line up there. They're all also quite different so you'll get a fairly different sonic signature depending on what you're after. You'll obviously get a different opinion from everyone but I'd personally rule out the dynaudio myself. You unwittingly already expressed a preference for the PMC and they're a fine full range speaker to go with, but maybe even too big for your room. On the other hand, if you've experienced the magic of planar dipoles in the Martin Logans, you may find it hard to listen to boxed speakers again. Of those, however, I'd personally lean towards the Magicos, though getting them would be very hard, as you've already worked out... If your amp is stable and delivers high current into 2 ohms then you should be able to drive virtually any of these speakers without issue. I don't get what you're saying about the tweeters crossing over behind you; are you talking about the amount of toe-in? Room correction can do a lot to tame bass modes but can't do anything about nulls, and your room is unfortunately square which means you'll likely bigger nodes than you otherwise would. For what it's worth, my room's a study too and not a great deal bigger than yours, though I have dynamic dipole speakers (and heavy DSP room correction) which aren't anywhere in your line up.

2

Thanks for pointing out that I'll need to address the nulls. Clearly, there's quite a bit more learning I need to do. I'm hoping the lads from DEQX will be able to advise here i.e. offer to measure my room, and advise me on where their technology helps, and what else I'll need to do to optimize the space. 

13 hours ago, jt301 said:

Maybe slightly over budget but what about the Wilson Audio duettes series 2?

 

Wilson Audio are well known for their dynamics, impact and resolution but these are supposed to be for designed for near boundary placement which should be useful in a small room.

 

Surely for the price range you’re looking at you can trial whatever you choose in your own room.

4

Ah! The Duette's. I'd do well to listen to them. I have to admit, while I love all the other Wilson designs the Duette's (and indeed the new Tune-Tots) don't do it for me. None-the-less, I'll be sure to hear them. As for auditioning speakers in my room is concerned, it's not as easy as you'd think. I've had a few retailers who exclusively stock some of these lines knock me back despite the offer of putting down a substantial deposit. :(

13 hours ago, 44maloo said:

I would suggest JBL 4367.For electonica and dynamics this is the one and well under 30k.

The 4367's are definitely a consideration as I've seen them deployed in smallish rooms, fairly close to room boundaries. :)

11 hours ago, Black Orange said:

If I was in your position, looking at keeping your main amp and the excellent DEQX (I use DEQX in my system too), 

I would buy the best and most cohesive sounding Stand Mounts or book shelf speakers that will match well with the amp. 

 

I will also buy a couple of Sub Woofers and integrate them with the mains using the DEQX. This way your amp is kept away from driving the demanding bottom end and using the DEQX you'll have much better control of the bass management and levels as it will be driven by a different amp to the mains. Integration with the sub and mains is seamless with the DEQX. 

 

I would look at Subs like the Rel G series, Rythmik etc. And book shelfs can be from the brands you were looking at Magico, Dynaudio, TAD etc.  

I have also been impressed Raidho.  

 

 

3

Indeed, it's increasingly looking l like the decision will come down to medium sized floor stander or stand-mounts + subs while leaning heavily on the DEQX for integration of both scenarios in my size.

 

Appreciate the Raidho suggestion. I may have the chance to listen a pair of D3's locally. Will do and report back! :)

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1 minute ago, Galactic Soap said:

Thanks for pointing out that I'll need to address the nulls. Clearly, there's quite a bit more learning I need to do. I'm hoping the lads from DEQX will be able to advise here i.e. offer to measure my room, and advise me on where their technology helps, and what else I'll need to do to optimize the space.

You can't electrically do anything to fix nulls. They have to be physically minimised by moving the speakers till they cause the least harm. Having an asymmetrical position with respect to the walls and listening position goes some way to help fix this; i.e. different distance to front and side walls. Probably the best way to address them though would be a couple of subwoofers placed in strategic locations to smooth over the frequencies that your mains would otherwise cancel out, which then allows you to use smaller mains. How you then cross over to the subs then also becomes another decision - if possible, cutting out the low frequencies from your mains will allow them to work better rather than just having the subs supplement the same frequencies.

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@Galactic Soap I've heard the MBSE's at CAV. If Electronica is your main genre, the PMC'S will put the others to bed in an instant ,

as it should because it is totally full range and one of PMC's finest speakers. The impact and slam is mesmerising, end game if there is such thing.

The Magico's and Tad's are different to the MBSE'S, I found them possibly more on the refinement side of things, but we're splitting hairs here. They are also more demanding on higher end electronics to get the best out of them, think Dartzeel, Karan, Vitus, MBSE's bog standard M/F or Bryston still sound great.  

The room dimensions are on the smaller side, this is why I'm going to recommend two down firing high end speakers which I've also heard in smaller rooms, being Avalon Indra's or Proac K6's. The imaging on the Proacs was as good as the MBSE's.

Apart from the room dims', the big issue is going to come down to preferred amp/speaker matching. The choice speaker here might not necessarily sound best with your electronics, so don't rush the decision.

 

Good Luck....Frank.

 

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A few thoughts for you GS:

 

1) Being a sealed box design, the Magico speakers can work better in smaller rooms if you get positioning right.  Ported speakers can be harder to get right in small rooms.  Any port, including a transmission line, introduces a degree of delay and distortion in the bass, which will be exaggerated in a small room.  Fast, tight bass from a sealed box design isn’t everyones cup of tea, but done right, it works well with electronic music.

 

2) I own MB2ses.  Love them.  They will work in any room, but they need careful amp matching because they use massive drivers (the magnet assembly on the midrange driver alone weighs around 10kg... then there is the 12” woofer!). To get the right response you need an amp with real grip. Yes, they work well with electronic music.

 

3) I understand the thinking in ruling out the kii system.  Let me say, don’t rule it out.  It would be perfect for your situation.  Give it a listen at least.

 

Hope that helps

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First dibs on the Pioneers!

 

Have  you treated the room? Bass traps etc.? If not have a look at the Artnovion line - looks really good.

 

Electrostats with sub/s are hard to match, and I think would suit your listening preferences. I recently got some full range electrostats in my small listening area,  your welcome to come and have a listen.

 

At that price point an in room demo is a must.

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Guest Eggcup The Daft
16 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Can you realistically get bass traps in a 3.5X3.5 room?

Of course you can.

But do you want the speakers in there as well?

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5 minutes ago, Blade74 said:

I agree the corner bass traps would work well.
Used these in a few jobs.

From my experience in a small room, I would say set up the speakers first, then measure and see if you even need them. It's not universal that you'll benefit from or even need bass traps... You can make vague predictions based on the room dimensions, wall/floor/roof construction, thickness, etc. but you won't know for sure until you actually put them there.

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Guest Eggcup The Daft

Where are the doors in this room? If you have corner door/doorway, you'll have problems with equipment and seating placement before planning on corner bass traps. This being effectively the front entrance, I think that you'll soon find that it isn't going to be your "own space" once you start adding unusual looking bass traps and stuff as well as your own choice of speakers... I'm prepared to bet that you'll find the sound runs through the house as well without a door to the hallway.

 

Personally I'd consider living with the wife's interior design rules to access a better room with speakers in this price range - but audition some speakers in the small room with "normal" furnishings first, you might be fine.

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