Sound Proofing...When do you have enough?

[Silent Screamer]

On 15/01/2019 at 1:08 AM, Al.M said:

To make it worse most of us sleep in beds with our heads near walls and the room mode can excite their sub doof doof noise by up to another 10dB(A). See below pics

Yep that the exact scenario my head is close to the wall nearest where the noise is coming from. I haven't yet filed a noise complaint because one I don't think it is neighbourly, and two I want a bit of understanding when  I use my CNC.

 

On the property though I don't think one of the neighbours will hesitate to call the cops, she is that kind of neighbour. So I would rather overkill than under do it. Even if it means having to treat room problems.

[Silent Screamer]

On 15/01/2019 at 10:20 PM, almikel said:

Totally unrelated to audio, but make sure anything underground has appropriate moisture control.

 

PS: you're welcome to come and listen to my "lightly constructed/leaky room with lots of absorption" any time.

IMHO my room has bass "reasonably" under control - sufficient that the bass sounds "dry" and typically gets turned up not down on the remote.

Audio memory is cr@p, so you'll never be able to properly compare - but listening to different rooms is worthwhile.

 

 

Won't be underground underground but cut into a slope although moisture will still be an issue so good advice.

Are you southside or northside? Guessing southside if you can hear the freeway.

 

[Silent Screamer]

18 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Regarding multiple walls, see triple leaf effect

 

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/triple-leaf-effect/

 

Can be avoided by having the room layer porous. I used peg board wherever I could if I needed to bring walls out to certain levels. 

 

But really no point. Just clip and channel the whole thing, then deal with the bass then....as I say just put a riser trap in...if my old room was big enough,  this one Certainly is

That flooring gave me an idea for getting air into the room. If I was to put pipes in or under the slab it might make for less noise escaping, also some kind of wood floor like that might help absorb some of the sound from reflecting.

[Silent Screamer]

16 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Nah.... Just as much as you "need".     What I am saying is don't fall into the trap of not defining the problem well, and then just saying "Arg, I'm not sure if there will be enough soundproofing .... i'll just put in absolute shitloads to make sure it's not a problem".

 

Definitely.   You can achieve the right level of sound proofing, while still having good sound in the room ...... but you don't usually get there by putting in a concrete box (it sounded like that was being proposed), or need to do that.  

 

Too some degree there is no getting away from the concrete box since the whole bottom layer of the house needs to remain cosmetically the same.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Silent Screamer

[Al.M]

1 hour ago, Silent Screamer said:

I haven't yet filed a noise complaint because one I don't think it is neighbourly, and two I want a bit of understanding when  I use my CNC.

From this Qld link http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/report-a-problem-noise-42558.html on which government department handles types of noise complaints the Police look after stereo music. However, noise from your CNC use appears to be unrestricted in the day time so you are allowed to use it legally. Your description of the current noisy neighbour using his sub day, night and morning it is cleary ridiculous, unreasonable and excessive, you are being too generous and afraid to complain. 

 

Since this EU WHO study in 2011 https://www.who.int/quantifying_ehimpacts/publications/e94888/en/ confirmed that environmental noise clearly affects human health in terms of long term exposure affects on heart disease from cortisone induced stress anxiety, sleep issues and child mental impairment, things at government level actions to stop noise have been taken more seriously due liability potential. It is no longer a case of mere low level nuisance with unproven health affects and winging complainers.

 

Back to your house plans, with the additional information given above. If the lots are only 20m wide then there is future potential for a neighbour to build a house closer than 30 or 50m from you so yes it would be good to build a margin into the acoustic works. The audio room being sunk partly into the ground helps a lot and your current house orientation of the audio room away from the red roof neighbour with your other rooms shielding it helps further.

 

With regards to audio room ventilation and and damp proofing, those will need to be addressed as standard issues in your building licence approval compliance with Building Code. Note ventilation ducts and shafts are common overlooked noise entry and escape paths and suitable design is needed such as acoustic grade seals and duct housing, baffles, self closing vent shutters and pointing the external vent away from noise entry and exit directions.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Al.M

[Silent Screamer]

44 minutes ago, Al.M said:

From this Qld link http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/report-a-problem-noise-42558.html on which government department handles types of noise complaints the Police look after stereo music. However, noise from your CNC use appears to be unrestricted in the day time so you are allowed to use it legally. Your description of your current noisy neighbour using his sub day, night and morning it is cleary ridiculous, unreasonable and excessive, you are being too generous and afraid to complain. 

 

Since this EU WHO study in 2011 https://www.who.int/quantifying_ehimpacts/publications/e94888/en/ confirmed that environmental noise clearly affects human health in terms of long term exposure affects on heart disease from cortisone induced stress anxiety, sleep issues and child mental impairment, things on at a government level and actions to stop noise have been taken more seriously due liability potential. t is no longer a case of mere low level nuisance with unproven health affects and winging complainers.

 

Back to your house plans with the additional information above, if the lots are only 20m wide then there is future potential for a neighbour to build a house closer than 30 or 50m from you so yes it would be good to build a margin into the acoustic works. The audio being sunk partly into the ground helps a lot and your current house orientation of the audio room away from the red roof neighbour with your other rooms shielding it helps further.

I have cut the noisy neighbour all the slack they are going to get since the last cop visit they have been quieter than church mice and music turned off at a reasonable hour.

 

Nope can't build any closer... The house up the front with the trees in the back are the only ones that could be closer if they relocate the house to the back of the block. The area is not only character housing (must conform to an early 1900's look) but it is also designated low density, so you can't have two houses on a block. My block was sub divided 20 years ago but never built on, and I can't see the council allowing the neighbour up the front to sub divide, especially since the guy who sub divided my block originally had to purchase some land off the neighbour to make the driveway wide enough to comply with the sub devision, so they are probably about 18m across the front.

 

On the other side of me there are two 10m strips belonging to two different owners. Not sure how this come about but there is a dry creek bed that starts right next to my blocks goes around the back of the block and through one of the 10m strips, so even if they bought both 10m strips there probably isn't enough room to construct a house there.

 

Unless the rules change radically there is pretty much no way to build me out. Hard to believe from these pictures but I am just 500 meters from the CBD.

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Silent Screamer

[Silent Screamer]

View from the road, you can see the triangle piece of land on the right where they bought it off the neighbour's front yard to create a 5m wide driveway.

Shed is about 1m inside other neighbours boundary.

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Silent Screamer

[Guest Peter the Greek]

5 hours ago, Silent Screamer said:

That flooring gave me an idea for getting air into the room. If I was to put pipes in or under the slab it might make for less noise escaping, also some kind of wood floor like that might help absorb some of the sound from reflecting.

I like the idea from a mass perspective. Not sure what a HVAC guy would think regarding maintenance.

 

Regarding the floor. I put down a layer of a product called Angel Step that Acoustica supply. Then chip board on top of that. If I had the space (height) I'd have down a second layer with GG in between. It felt good to walk on - sort of springy 

 

[Silent Screamer]

I could always stagger the seating and bring the pipe work for the vents in under the seats...

Could put some serious padding in under there too.

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Silent Screamer

[davewantsmoore]

13 hours ago, Al.M said:

for typical broaddbandish background or ambient environment noise

Exactly.   The spectrum of his noise floor could be substantially different from this.

13 hours ago, Al.M said:

This and many literature summarises A-weighting as the closest to what humans hear and therefore mostly what we perceive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

The A weight is good for showing you a single number for what noise you will be sensitive to..... it might not be appropriate for other versions of this sort of question  (like how much dynamic range do you have in your system, etc.) .... where you might want to not exclude any data, ie. look at a whole chart.

Quote

In legal noise complaint nuisance, urban planning, environmental noise and building design settings it always discussed as A-weighting for human occupancy. Individual freq spectrums are part of these discussions to narrow down on specific issues and causes.

Yes, I'm quite well aware of all of this....

Edited January 17, 2019 by davewantsmoore

[almikel]

10 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Yes, I'm quite well aware of all of this....

I wasn't - so thanks for the info @Al.M

 

I've typically used my Sound Level Meter in C mode because I'm measuring the output of my stereo and want to know what's going on inside my room including the bass end.

 

15 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

If I had the space (height) I'd have down a second layer with GG in between. 

that's extreme - what was the expected benefit of the 2nd layer? additional isolation or additional compliance?

Compliance I get.

 

Mike

[Al.M]

4 hours ago, almikel said:

want to know what's going on inside my room including the bass end.

Although your ears won’t percieve it exactly as that in C-weighting, it is used to generally monitor the bass region as it gives a flatter meter response of all the combined frequencies and potentially better for reducing the doof doof for the neighbour. Whereas A-weighting is seriously tailed off in the bass region by about 30dB less at 50Hz for example (refer to my previous A, C, Z graph). 

 

Many simple sound meters only flick from A, C and Z with no freq selection so there may not be much to glean from staring at C-weighting levels alone.

 

C-weighting is used alongside A-weighting at open venue music events where a max level is set to control both overall levels and keep handle on the doof doof. So for example, a large rock concert with 20,000 people would specify 97dB LAeq and 104dB LCeq at the mixing desk 30m from stage and a sound meter can be switched from A-weighting overall perceived noise and then to C-weighting to check on the doof doof noise. But if they pump it up too loud and heaps of residential complaints happen it will be the excessive A-weighted level they will be fined or prosecuted on by law.

 

A difference of 10dB(A) over another general broadbandish (most situations we come across) and not frequency dominant or specific sound is perceived as about twice the loudness, so if one is mixing up A vs C weighting the percieved difference is significant when two people are discussing how loud something is and one is using A-weighting and the other person C-weighting.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Al.M

[Guest Peter the Greek]

9 hours ago, almikel said:

that's extreme

Is there any other way?  

Just a bit more damping and mass on the floor, trying to bring its performance up to the same level as the walls. The floor in that instance was somewhat isolated with the Angel Step and as I show in the last photo, free floating, so the chip board didn't actually physically touch the walls - acoustic sealant (the green glue one) filling the gap

 

I had zero issues with that room, so really the additional clip board is not necessary - structurally it would be beneficial to have another layer going 90 degrees, screwed into one another. I'm not sure how the single layer will perform over time

[davewantsmoore]

10 hours ago, almikel said:

I've typically used my Sound Level Meter in C mode because I'm measuring the output of my stereo and want to know what's going on inside my room including the bass end.

The key part here is "want to know what is going on".

 

Depending on what it is you want to know, a weighting may be appropriate.   AI.M is pushing a A-weighting, as "that is how we hear", and this is generally misleading.

 

If you want to quantify some relatively pure tone noise, with a single number (you probably don't as it isn't particularly helpful.... but, let's say you did for some reason) .... then A will weight it towards what you care about.

 

If you're looking at "how annoying will this noise be" .... or "how quickly will my ears hurt" type of questions, then A is more appropriate ......  BUT, if you are comparing different broadband noisefloors, which are all quite quiet (like we are here) .... then a weighting on the data, doesn't seem at all appropriate....   a "single number" dB doesn't seem very appropriate either.

7 hours ago, Al.M said:

C-weighting is used alongside A-weighting at open venue music events where a max level is set to control both overall levels and keep handle on the doof doof. So for example, a large rock concert with 20,000 people would specify 97dB LAeq and 104dB LCeq at the mixing desk 30m from stage and a sound meter can be switched from A-weighting overall perceived noise and then to C-weighting to check on the doof doof noise. But if they pump it up too loud and heaps of residential complaints happen it will be the excessive A-weighted level they will be fined or prosecuted on by law.

Just to note that measuring these levels, is very very different from measuring the noise floor itself (like we are doing here).

Quote

two people are discussing how loud something is and one is using A-weighting and the other person C-weighting.

Definitely.

Edited January 18, 2019 by davewantsmoore

[Silent Screamer]

3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

The key part here is "want to know what is going on".

 

Depending on what it is you want to know, a weighting may be appropriate.   AI.M is pushing a A-weighting, as "that is how we hear", and this is generally misleading.

 

If you want to quantify some relatively pure tone noise, with a single number (you probably don't as it isn't particularly helpful.... but, let's say you did for some reason) .... then A will weight it towards what you care about.

 

If you're looking at "how annoying will this noise be" .... or "how quickly will my ears hurt" type of questions, then A is more appropriate ......  BUT, if you are comparing different broadband noisefloors, which are all quite quiet (like we are here) .... then a weighting on the data, doesn't seem at all appropriate....   a "single number" dB doesn't seem very appropriate either.

Just to note that measuring these levels, is very very different from measuring the noise floor itself (like we are doing here).

Definitely.

The only question that matters is which one will the cops be using when they turn up to measure it?

[Silent Screamer]

4 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Is there any other way?

Isn't overkill the default setting?

[Al.M]

2 hours ago, Silent Screamer said:

The only question that matters is which one will the cops be using when they turn up to measure it?

I agree it depends what answer is chased, but predominantly in society and the overall acoustic environment we live in backed by community laws, workplace hearing safety and building acoustic insulation standards etc A-weighting is commonly referenced or the only one mentioned. You have to abide by and design buildings to an A-weighted standard e.g. COPs attending complaints, two types of noise inspectors involved for neighbour annoyance complaint and workplace hearing safety, acoustic consultants advising developers, builders and architects, road traffic noise barriers and design etc A-weighting is the common,y referenced parameter generally.

 

Some more info links https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/acoustics-noise-decibels-t_27.html

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/decibel-dba-levels-d_728.html

 

This one is quite educational on many room build subjects 

 

More info on A or C weighting usage with a simple sound meter for noise floor measurements (noises in the room from appliances, external noise influences etc), see last sentence page bottom http://nuancetone.com/noise-floor/

 

Qld Police are responsible for music noise complaints and unlikely to be trained or have noise meters so resort to subjective noise assessment by listening for how annoying it is and the A-weighting measurement would best support this. If you are using your own Sound meter to monitor your audio noise to the neighbour it should be set in A-weighting at the property boundary. If you are trying to ensure your own hearing safety in the audio room to prevent gradual deafness over many years, the sound meters should be set in A-weighting.

 

Therefore A-weighting is not just for noise annoyance measurements.

 

The disadvantage of Qld Police assessing noise complaints subjectively by ear only is that method is not very precise compared to using a noise measure. It won’t be any good for noises at the low end of the scale exceeding the background by less than 5dB(A), won’t pickup tonally annoying frequencies and other issues. With noise annoyance it’s not only about how loud it is as there can be other issues like low level sound with slight doof-doof, annoying tones, siren like modulation and short 1-2 second high impact sounds every few hours that drive people crazy. In WA, the Police only deal with music from noisy parties and refer stereo and audio system noise to other types of people who are trained to operate noise meters and take measurements, so the noise is dealt with more effectively.

 

So stereo music noise makers in Qld have an easier time compared to WA.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Al.M

[davewantsmoore]

12 hours ago, Al.M said:

Although your ears won’t percieve it exactly as that in C-weighting, it is used to generally monitor the ....

 

Wow.   I'm having a bad day today.

 

Mmuch of my reply(ies) were based on me thinking this is the "how quiet is your background" thread.

 

I think a lot of it does still apply though .... ie. you don't want to jump to a weighting to quickly.   The raw data is much more enlightening.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

Say you're targeting a 19db level, are the affordable meters capable of measuring that?

[Al.M]

Please don’t get me wrong about the Qld Police attending stereo music noise compliants. In many cases it would be very quick and effective for the simple noises as people get the message straight away with uniformed officials turning up at their door step. Whereas in WA the non-uniformed people turning up at noisy houses take longer to setup their noise meters, even longer to check the results and decide what to do days later, while people are suffering.

[davewantsmoore]

5 minutes ago, Peter the Greek said:

Say you're targeting a 19db level, are the affordable meters capable of measuring that?

The errors at such a quiet level are large ....  and I don't think this level is at all required for a normal playback system...  get it under 30, and forget about it IMVHO.

[davewantsmoore]

4 minutes ago, Al.M said:

Whereas in WA the non-uniformed people turning up at noisy houses take longer to setup their noise meters, even longer to check the results and decide what to do days later, while people are suffering.

Yeah I was going to say.... it seems like the Queenslanderers really have it tougher ..... the cops come, and make their judgement  (which is usually probably 'turn it down, mate').

 

Where as in WA it's not so fast or confronting, and the situation might be that you are just under the limit, and you're allowed to keep playing, even though your neighbours don't like it.

[Al.M]

48 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

WA it's not so fast or confronting, and the situation might be that you are just under the limit, and you're allowed to keep playing, even though your neighbours don't like it.

Not so confronting in WA but tougher to comply with the legal noise limits because the fancier noise measurement fleshes out all the problems with the noise. It requires compliance with a predetermined outside noise level for the zoning and traffic of the area, which is about the same as a Qld background, then applies penalties for annoying characteristics in the noise by adding another 5-15dB on top of what was measured and music automatically attracts 10dB penalty, so the final figure can appear that you are making more noise than measured.

 

This is intended so that lower level noise emissions are basically at inaudiblity at the affected persons house so people can sleep etc. 

 

Also, depending how on the Qld Police Officer turned up at the persons house they wouldn’t be able to assess low level noises that can still be an issue. For example, at 2am they drive there exposed to an internal car noise environment of 80dB(A), then proceed into a house to listen for the noise, the house noise floor is 20-25dB(A), the offending doof doof noise inside the room is 30-35dB(A) and due to their ears not adjusting for 20mins to the quieter noise floor they are unable to hear anything or it doesn’t sound loud enough, they conclude it’s not an issue, while the complainant is unable to sleep being woken all night by their bedroom noise floor being raised from 20dB to 30dB(A) perceived as twice the loudness. 

 

I have personal experience of this where as a non-uniformed person I measured problematic noise levels albeit low end of the scale but Police and other officials couldn’t hear it. I had acoustic experts confirm my results and explain why.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Al.M

[Al.M]

1 hour ago, Peter the Greek said:

Say you're targeting a 19db level, are the affordable meters capable of measuring that?

Just random checking the specs of cheaper meters out there and looks like none capable less than 30dB(A). Unless you have above average noisy appliances in the room, the majority of Aust homes in low to medium density areas with no major roads greater than 15000 vehicles per day within 100m would easily have after 10pm particularly after 2am noise floors of 17-25dB(A) with Windows and doors closed, no snoring and heavy breathers around.

 

Perhaps others who earlier reported 15-25dB noise floors in their houses could list their equipment prices and models.

 

For example:

 

$60 meter with 40-120dB(A) Range only https://www.instrumentchoice.com.au/instrument-choice/environment-meters/sound-level-meters-1/0-200-sound-level-meters/ic1591-micro-sound-level-meter?keyword_k=?device_d=t?campaign_c=1466279182&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0IGOyNP23wIVzbWWCh3oPQDDEAQYAiABEgLSyfD_BwE

 

$135 meter with 30-120dB(A) Range only https://www.instrumentchoice.com.au/instrument-choice/environment-meters/sound-level-meters-1/music-and-entertainment-noise/neighbour-noise/c-dsm1-compact-digital-sound-level-meter-ed5s?keyword_k=?device_d=t?campaign_c=1466279182&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0IGOyNP23wIVzbWWCh3oPQDDEAQYASABEgKIufD_BwE

 

$380 meter 30-120(A) ra ge only

https://www.instrumentchoice.com.au/instrument-choice/environment-meters/sound-level-meters-1/200-1000-sound-level-meters/ic1592-pro-sound-level-meter-with-calibrator?keyword_k=?device_d=t?campaign_c=1466279182&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0IGOyNP23wIVzbWWCh3oPQDDEAQYAyABEgJg_vD_BwE

 

$1300 meter 30-120dB(A) Range only https://www.instrumentchoice.com.au/instrument-choice/environment-meters/sound-level-meters-1/1000-and-above-sound-level-meters/casella-246-digital-sound-level-meter-cel-246?keyword_k=?device_d=t?campaign_c=1079758032&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0IGOyNP23wIVzbWWCh3oPQDDEAQYCCABEgLwhPD_BwE

Edited January 18, 2019 by Al.M

[almikel]

1 hour ago, Al.M said:

no snoring and heavy breathers around.

My snoring annoys my wife more than me cranking the stereo

 

Reminds me of cheap ski trips decades ago with bunk rooms of 12 people. My brother (another snorer) and I would hand out ear plugs to the other bunk room occupants...I was never bothered by other snorers with ear plugs in...

...of course my wife can't put up with wearing ear plugs

 

Mike