Guest Peter the Greek Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) @Tweaky https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/the-dead-vent/ https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing-articles/how-can-i-ventilate-a-sealed-soundproof-room/ Then you need over sized supplies and returns so you can't hear the air flow. 200 fpm at the vent is supposed to be the benchmark Edited January 9, 2019 by Peter the Greek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter WM Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: This is my ultimate goal. For decades I have had to live in fear of upsetting someone... In the new house I want to play that sucker as loud as I can bare, and not be getting a knock on the door from the po po. If that means going to extremes to get that level of mental comfort, then I will do what ever that takes, even if it means I have to build four walls on every side. The ultimate is to build a room within a room. Separate stud walls and rafters supported on them that don't fix to the roof trusses. The obvious downside to this is the reduction in room size, particularly the ceiling height. Edited January 9, 2019 by Peter WM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinzan Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 You want to crank it but have mentioned master bedroom above (if I’ve read that right?) and not get yelled as an objective. Get a professional sound proofing design done and incorporated into your building plans before a sod of soil is turned! A few $k in plans now will pay back big time when you get the end result. If sound proofed correctly and the master bedroom above can’t hear the theatre, you won’t need to worry about the neighbour 30m down the road. My last room had significant soundproofing and you could barely hear the bass outside the room (internally). The neighbour 5m away couldn’t hear a thing! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 6 hours ago, Peter the Greek said: Doesn't work, in fact detracts. Isolation, mass, damping in that order. Spray foam does none of these Yep was in two minds if the greater surface area would of the spray outweighed it becoming quite a solid structure. Agree it definitely works against the idea of decoupling it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 hours ago, Tweaky said: One of the biggest problems to overcome when soundproofing a room to the degree you intend is air conditioning, both for sound escaping from a otherwise sealed room within a room, and sound from the air conditioning ruining what could be a low noise floor, if only a suitable plenum had been installed at the time of build. Pretty hard to enjoy your music loud if your rendered unconscious from oxygen deprivation , plus the room will heat up into a unbearable sweatbox once you have the equipment up and running without suitable air con. I've seem plenty of disastrous HT builds where this has been neglected. Really good point Tweaky and I will post some images shortly to get ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 hours ago, Peter the Greek said: @Tweaky https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/the-dead-vent/ https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing-articles/how-can-i-ventilate-a-sealed-soundproof-room/ Then you need over sized supplies and returns so you can't hear the air flow. 200 fpm at the vent is supposed to be the benchmark Some food for thought there Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 9 hours ago, Al.M said: If not already mentioned there are additional sound rated sheet products like Soundheck 13mm that is equal sound performance to two layers of normal 13mm (26mm total) gyprock helping with more effective result for less thickness. Hadn't been mentioned in this thread, but I was aware there were better products available than the common everyday Gyprock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Peter WM said: The ultimate is to build a room within a room. Separate stud walls and rafters supported on them that don't fix to the roof trusses. The obvious downside to this is the reduction in room size, particularly the ceiling height. This is definitely part of the plan and if needs be a room inside that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Zinzan said: You want to crank it but have mentioned master bedroom above (if I’ve read that right?) and not get yelled as an objective. Get a professional sound proofing design done and incorporated into your building plans before a sod of soil is turned! A few $k in plans now will pay back big time when you get the end result. If sound proofed correctly and the master bedroom above can’t hear the theatre, you won’t need to worry about the neighbour 30m down the road. My last room had significant soundproofing and you could barely hear the bass outside the room (internally). The neighbour 5m away couldn’t hear a thing! Not overly concerned about the master bedroom upstairs. If all goes to plan I will have a floating concrete floor upstairs as well as a second false roof, and if that fails we have a guest room at the other end of the house she can sleep in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter WM Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Silent Screamer said: Hadn't been mentioned in this thread, but I was aware there were better products available than the common everyday Gyprock. 16mm Gyprock is another option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, Peter WM said: 16mm Gyprock is another option. Yeah that's the 5/8th they talk about on the website, but I believe there is thinner better sound absorbing stuff on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 Did a bit of playing around in SketchUp and I think it would be possible to fit those silencers on both ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinzan Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 7 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: Yeah that's the 5/8th they talk about on the website, but I believe there is thinner better sound absorbing stuff on the market. With gyprock your getting the “mass” element of a soundproofing system...16mm fyrechek weighs about the same per sq/m as 13mm soundchek. The soundchek is a bit more expensive from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter the Greek Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 It's been years since I looked at it, but I wasn't aware the density of soundchek was higher than firechek? Density is all that matters, the rest is marketing BS. When I looked into it last, BCG's fire rated board was the most dense on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al.M Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) I’ve seen quite a few acoustic reports for quiet house designs and commercial night club sound attenuation barriers and they often recommend: Gyprock Soundcheck 13mm https://www.gyprock.com.au/products/plasterboard-soundchek or Soundstop 13mm https://www.usgboral.com/content/dam/USGBoral/Australia/Website/Documents/English/technical-data/12961_Soundstop_13mm_PDS.pdf or Equivalent 2 x 13mm layer of normal gyprock but this will have install implications for weight and loads etc. Havnt seen Fyrchek recommended much maybe because dont always need the fire rating properties https://www.gyprock.com.au/products/plasterboard-fyrchek-mr Do the math and prices and see which is best for the situation. Edited January 11, 2019 by Al.M 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solman Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 From gyprock website... Fyrchek 16mm = 12.5kg/m2 Soundchek 13mm = 13kg/m2 From https://madexplaster.com.au/ Gyprock Fyrchek 16mm 3000x1200x16mm Fyrchek Plasterboard$35.46 per sheet Soundchek 13mm 3000x1200x13mm Soundchek Plasterboard$43.20 per sheet Yes Soundchek is slightly better in density but it is 18% more expensive. Which can add up a fair bit when you doing two layers on all walls and ceiling plus I between joists if you go that path. I personally would use fyrchek, that way I could put that saving towards other things like green glue. Just some food for thought 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al.M Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) Some wider installation discussion, studio design, Building Code sound transmission figures per wall method and previous SNA post here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php in particular studio design National Construction Code wall construction methods with Rw sound transmission figures (see page 10 onwards, methods with higher Rw sound is better) https://www.renovateforum.com/f208/soundchek-fyrchek-noise-reduction-119196/ Edited January 11, 2019 by Al.M 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 (edited) Before I get too carried away I really need to investigate further what is achievable from a building perspective. I can't find a great photo, but the HT room is going to be on the high side of the block. It will be on the same level as the lower flat section you see (left of pic) and cut into the slope. That means that probably one meter of the south wall will be effectively under ground. My closest neighbour is on that side. The garage (front right of pic) will be about 1 meter higher than the HT room. You can just see a ridge of sandstone in the middle of the photo. I don't think it is particularly thick or hard sandstone (at least I hope its not). From where the photo was taken the road is about 60 meters behind Erika taking the photo. Edited January 11, 2019 by Silent Screamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br0d0 Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 11 hours ago, Al.M said: Some wider installation discussion, studio design, Building Code sound transmission figures per wall method and previous SNA post here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php in particular studio design National Construction Code wall construction methods with Rw sound transmission figures (see page 10 onwards, methods with higher Rw sound is better) https://www.renovateforum.com/f208/soundchek-fyrchek-noise-reduction-119196/ What's your weakest link? I'm not sure how the whole STC > 125Hz plays out in this case but... the last post of the link above from renovate forum touches on a very relevant point IMO: "As always, room is only as good as its weakest link, for most that's going to be windows or doorways, so green glue system would go great as long as you also put the effort into thick doors with double seals and Windows with the wide separated double glazed option. in the scheme of things given the cost of the whole project of building a studio, green glue is very cheap - a grand would probably see you through a whole room. If you have lots of space though a staggered stud wall would work better - pick your target reduction that you can get with your windows and doors, and then build the rest to exceed it by say 5db- if that needs green glue, then yes." What are people's opinions on the premise that a room is only as soundproof as its weakest link and how should this affect the target sound reduction? For example, according to Ted/soundproofingcompany, double drywall with green glue on clips and channel has STC of 71. It would seem that is a waste if only a single door is in place as: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/SIM-Doors.pdf "Even the best sealed, heavy door described above (see link) will still only get into the low 40s for an STC sound rating. This is the problem with any single door." - Looking at the below graph, if a single door is used you might as well go with resilient channel (STC 49) at the most. Thoughts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 1 hour ago, br0d0 said: What's your weakest link? I'm not sure how the whole STC > 125Hz plays out in this case but... the last post of the link above from renovate forum touches on a very relevant point IMO: Thoughts? I think the majority of those questions are answered on page 4 with pictures. Basically there will be no windows for several reasons... Noise leaks, light and security. Three door will separate the HT room from the rest of the house. My primary concern is <125Hz since these are the frequencies most likely to annoy the neighbours. Some of the HT room will be under ground so that is going count towards so natural absorption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
br0d0 Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Silent Screamer said: I think the majority of those questions are answered on page 4 with pictures. Basically there will be no windows for several reasons... Noise leaks, light and security. Three door will separate the HT room from the rest of the house. My primary concern is <125Hz since these are the frequencies most likely to annoy the neighbours. Some of the HT room will be under ground so that is going count towards so natural absorption. Ah yeah I see now. So the theatre only has one door but there are other doors on adjacent rooms that separate the theatre from the rest of the house? If you're ok with sound getting as far as those adjacent rooms then all good I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Screamer Posted January 12, 2019 Author Share Posted January 12, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, br0d0 said: Ah yeah I see now. So the theatre only has one door but there are other doors on adjacent rooms that separate the theatre from the rest of the house? If you're ok with sound getting as far as those adjacent rooms then all good I guess. The HT room will have at least two doors... An inner door to seal the inner room. Then an 8" outer Besser brick skin which could potentially have a custom door, then just outside that another door before the main part of the lower floor. Minimum of three doors between the HT room and rest of the lower floor. The only other thing that will be downstairs is the garage and the workshop. Edited January 12, 2019 by Silent Screamer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 On 06/01/2019 at 3:35 PM, Silent Screamer said: Also concrete seems to do a better job than most at absorbing the really low frequencies. Definitely not - it does a great job of not transmitting sound, but achieves that by reflecting the sound - as @davewantsmoore said, the more rigid the walls, the more low bass issues you'll have to deal with later inside the room. IMO your block/concrete walls will have sufficient isolation, and on those walls you need to build in some compliance. This can be achieved with your existing plans of an inner wall decoupled from the outer wall and insulation - but you don't need additional isolation (on those walls), and ordinary Gyprock provides compliance (ie will flex and absorb bass energy) - better than Fyrecheck/Soundcheck/double layers with greenglue etc. Absolutely use multiple layers of Gyprock/Fyrecheck/Soundcheck with Green Glue between for any walls/ceiling requiring additional isolation (especially the ceiling with the master bedroom above!!!). I helped a friend build a studio space, and isolation was a key requirement. We used 2 layers of Fyrecheck on each side of offset studs with Green Glue between (4 layers of Fyrecheck) + insulation on internal walls, and offset studs and 2 layers of Fyrecheck with Green Glue and insulation then the external weatherboards on the exterior walls. Ceiling had resilient clips and 2 layers of some sort of Gyprock/Fyrecheck and Green Glue and insulation. The timber floor was the weak point, and we ended up with flanking noise through that path, so isolation is OK, but could have been better... ...the point of this story is twofold: flanking noise is a key factor in every design this room with so many layers of dense Fyrecheck ended up as a reverberation chamber - significant bass trapping was required afterwards to manage the reflected sound. Likely not as much as block/concrete walls would have - Fyrecheck/Greenglue/Fyrecheck still has way more compliance/flex than block and concrete (which basically has no compliance, so all bass is reflected) IMHO if you've managed isolation with the "outer" walls, you want the "inner" walls to be as lossy as possible - without creating "flanking paths". Getting the bass right afterwards in a room with rigid walls is a significant challenge and consumes precious space. "Building in" some compliance/flex with the interior walls (ie "lossy") that have concrete/block as the outer wall will assist a lot when you're trying to get the "in room bass" right with treatment afterwards. I agree with @Peter the Greek that good isolation is a good thing - but as mentioned above - good isolation and good "in room" sound tend to work against each other - especially in the bass end. There's no point in building a room with fabulous isolation, but is so reflective inside that you can't manage the "in room" bass. You'll never bother the neighbours, but you won't be able to crank it either, as the boomy bass will drive you nuts - all of the band practise rooms our band uses being a great example - rigid walls, good sound isolation and terrible "in room" sound. cheers Mike 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 28 minutes ago, almikel said: Definitely not - it does a great job of not transmitting sound, but achieves that by reflecting the sound Indeed. Concrete walls, or being underground..... don't "absorb" sound.... they reflect it back into the room. I would say there's no point building an "underground concrete box" (my exaggeration), with all the bass problems that will bring ..... only to find out that you didn't need that much "sound proofing" anyways. Solving a problem you don't have (or haven't defined well), is usually a mistake. Only sound proof the room as much as it need to be. It is expensive, inconvenient... and if you end up with rigid walls, you will have poor LF performance. 8 hours ago, br0d0 said: What are people's opinions on the premise that a room is only as soundproof as its weakest link and how should this affect the target sound reduction? It's very true (which is why you see professional sites bringing it up so often) .... you can do extreme proofing .... but then the sound just gets out "gaps". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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