Power conditioning - choking the system!"

[Big Dog RJ]

5 hours ago, ThirdDrawerDown said:

Were you using the Thor power board (plugs/ sockets) as well as the transformer?

 

I ditched the power board but kept the transformer. The power board was the problem. 

 

(Apologies if that isn't news to some, I've mentioned it on the forum 4 times now.  That's the final time.)

Yes, at first I was using the board as well. With its plastic casing and pretty cheap looking lights, bells & whistles, I knew this was definitely not high quality. I used it for a very short time until I first got the Ikeman power board instead. This certainly made a difference in terms of better grounding. When I had Maggie's this is what I was using. Then I finally got the Nordost Qbase power board along with special power cords for the AC mains made by Gary Cawsey.

 

Gary Cawsey's power cords are top quality stuff, he even uses Furutec plugs on specific orders. He also makes high quality power boards. Now I'm using three power cords made by Cawsey with high quality furutec connections. I must say these are mighty fine compared with any highend power cords out there. He uses Australian sourced materials, high grade wiring and top end connectors, what more do you need? 

 

After quite a few years, many highend speaker systems came and went... But that silly Thor remained, mainly because it was doing the job "conditioning the power".

 

This is as my title reads "power conditioning". I'm not talking about isolators, regens, power boards etc. But power conditioning, that is any gadget that conditions the power going into your highend gear, will definitely ruin it! 

 

Your high quality audio amplifiers already have built in high quality power supplies, therefore I sincerely believe that if you add some sort of "conditioning" before the amplifiers are drawing proper un-altered power from the AC mains, your amplifiers will never sound the way they were intended to. Rather they are being fed this conditioned power, which is basically inferior to what the amplifiers are actually capable of on their own. 

 

As another member pointed out, other devices that do not add filters, active tracking, buffering current output stages and include transformers, such a device is being added as parallel to the AC mains to help sort out other areas, such as magnetic strays, EMI, RFI,  etc. And this is exactly what the Nordost devices do. They work on QRT - Quantum resonant technologies, and they certainly help a great deal! You can actually feel and see the difference.

Also, if your speakers are highly transparent, these flaws or attributes are so profound, they are very apparent from the first note!

 

At the end of the day, the point I'm trying to make is that it was ruining the overall Dynamics, resolution and finesse of my system, and I was not aware of it until a second pair of ears listened carefully. Don't get me wrong, with the Thor placed in, the sound was wonderful but without it, the sound is stunning!

 

Any such devices to be used, I would highly recommend a home trial on your particular system before laying out the $$$, it's better to be safe than sorry and end up with mediocre sound.

 

BTW, I have a Thor, does anyone want it? Let me know, cheers RJ

[tripitaka]

15 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

 

BTW, I have a Thor, does anyone want it? Let me know, cheers RJ

After such a terrific sales pitch, hehe ! 

[JohnL]

16 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

Yes, at first I was using the board as well. With its plastic casing and pretty cheap looking lights, bells & whistles, I knew this was definitely not high quality. I used it for a very short time until I first got the Ikeman power board instead. This certainly made a difference in terms of better grounding. When I had Maggie's this is what I was using. Then I finally got the Nordost Qbase power board along with special power cords for the AC mains made by Gary Cawsey.

 

Gary Cawsey's power cords are top quality stuff, he even uses Furutec plugs on specific orders. He also makes high quality power boards. Now I'm using three power cords made by Cawsey with high quality furutec connections. I must say these are mighty fine compared with any highend power cords out there. He uses Australian sourced materials, high grade wiring and top end connectors, what more do you need? 

 

After quite a few years, many highend speaker systems came and went... But that silly Thor remained, mainly because it was doing the job "conditioning the power".

 

This is as my title reads "power conditioning". I'm not talking about isolators, regens, power boards etc. But power conditioning, that is any gadget that conditions the power going into your highend gear, will definitely ruin it! 

 

Your high quality audio amplifiers already have built in high quality power supplies, therefore I sincerely believe that if you add some sort of "conditioning" before the amplifiers are drawing proper un-altered power from the AC mains, your amplifiers will never sound the way they were intended to. Rather they are being fed this conditioned power, which is basically inferior to what the amplifiers are actually capable of on their own. 

 

As another member pointed out, other devices that do not add filters, active tracking, buffering current output stages and include transformers, such a device is being added as parallel to the AC mains to help sort out other areas, such as magnetic strays, EMI, RFI,  etc. And this is exactly what the Nordost devices do. They work on QRT - Quantum resonant technologies, and they certainly help a great deal! You can actually feel and see the difference.

Also, if your speakers are highly transparent, these flaws or attributes are so profound, they are very apparent from the first note!

 

At the end of the day, the point I'm trying to make is that it was ruining the overall Dynamics, resolution and finesse of my system, and I was not aware of it until a second pair of ears listened carefully. Don't get me wrong, with the Thor placed in, the sound was wonderful but without it, the sound is stunning!

 

Any such devices to be used, I would highly recommend a home trial on your particular system before laying out the $$$, it's better to be safe than sorry and end up with mediocre sound.

 

BTW, I have a Thor, does anyone want it? Let me know, cheers RJ

 

Why not try your Thor running other less demanding stuff like Source and Display?

Edited December 19, 2018 by JohnL

[Assisi]

17 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

"any gadget that conditions the power going into your highend gear, will definitely ruin it!"

@Big Dog RJ

My emphasis above.  I would be curious to know whether you have tried any other quality conditioners or regenerators besides the Thor?  To base your all encompassing categorical negative comments upon on a single device that at best is probably a low end one , whilst it fulfills its role in varying the outgoing voltage, is not particularly pertinent to me.  The Thor at its low price point does not seem to me to be hiend. 

 

I have heard various conditioners and regenerators.  Some did suck the life out of the system that they were connected to.  Some definitely don't do that.  Some devices do make a noticeable beneficial contribution to the listening outcome.  You may be surprised as to what you may find device wise that do provide a benefit if you tried a quality one that works with your system.

 

I have a Giggawatt PC3 EVO SE feeding some quite serious equipment.  It does a provide definite benefit for me!  Try one.  If you don't you will never know what you are missing.

John

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Assisi

[Guest rmpfyf]

On 17/12/2018 at 11:19 PM, Addicted to music said:

A variation of 190-260V is unacceptable..  As per other  threads the standards defined in AS61000.3.100,  mains shouldn’t vary outside +10 -6% thats defined between 216-253v.    If you had such a large variation at the time you should have reported it to the grid.    The preferred range is +6 -2% .    They would have attended your premises immediately and placed a logger for 48hrs and told you what the next step would be after examining the data.

 

Careful - that range is acceptable depending on the duration of the excursion(s) and the state of the grid at the time (whether degraded or not). 

 

Your advice is correct - call your DNSP in any instance and have 'em investigate just in case.

[Big Dog RJ]

7 hours ago, tripitaka said:

After such a terrific sales pitch, hehe ! 

I'm offering it FOC, if anyone has a use for it. My CJ distributor wants it back, claiming that customers keep asking for one, and they don't want to pay more than 1500 for it.

I will give it back to him in any case, since the sarcasm has already begun...

At least he can make something out of it. Cheers, RJ 

[Big Dog RJ]

6 hours ago, JohnL said:

 

Why not try your Thor running other less demanding stuff like Source and Display?

Not required, those components are very well built and deal with any AC mains issues with no problems, McIntosh and Rega, solid stuff. It was mainly a concern for me in the past with regards to the amplifiers. Being all CJ and full tube design, no SS whatsoever. 

I was thinking using it for the screen but since we're moving soon, I'll be upgrading the screen anyway, so I'll see whether it's required then.

Thanks for the suggestion though, makes perfect sense. 

RJ 

[Big Dog RJ]

5 hours ago, Assisi said:

@Big Dog RJ

My emphasis above.  I would be curious to know whether you have tried any other quality conditioners or regenerators besides the Thor?  To base your all encompassing categorical negative comments upon on a single device that at best is probably a low end one , whilst it fulfills its role in varying the outgoing voltage, is not particularly pertinent to me.  The Thor at its low price point does not seem to me to be hiend. 

 

I have heard various conditioners and regenerators.  Some did suck the life out of the system that they were connected to.  Some definitely don't do that.  Some devices do make a noticeable beneficial contribution to the listening outcome.  You may be surprised as to what you may find device wise that do provide a benefit if you tried a quality one that works with your system.

 

I have a Giggawatt PC3 EVO SE feeding some quite serious equipment.  It does a provide definite benefit for me!  Try one.  If you don't you will never know what you are missing.

John

 

 

Yes seems to be a fair statement. However, with the gear I have, power conditioning is not required. In fact many years ago when I met up with both Eve Anna Manley and Lew Johnson, both of them clearly pointed out that power conditioning is not required, unless:

1. the power is terrible off the grid

2. Unable to bias the output tubes within S stable bias current.

3. If the AC mains power is that bad, they further went on to say not to use their gear at all, until the grid was fixed! 

 

Since this was not very possible back in home town cmb, I installed the BEST power unit and that stabilized everything, except for the hum...

 

I know of high quality devices such as PS Audio, Isotek, and Shunyata but I'm not going to spend that kind of money for those accessories unless it was one from Nordost. If power "conditioning" was all that important and proved to be successful in a high-End system where it had a totally neutral character and did not alter the sound in any way or form, then by now Nordost would have made one, they don't! 

 

That itself explains why. I'm not willing to spend 13-20 grand for such items, and especially when it's not required. I think we're very fortunate in Aus, since we have good voltage and reliable power. 

 

I was just in touch with another CJ owner in the US, has very similar amplification to what I have. Lives in South Florida, the power is terrible, varies from 107v to 190v, now that's an issue. Too many people using air cons all the time, especially during nights, causes sudden surges snd drops in the local grid. The authorities do Didley squat! He's using a top line unit from PS Audio, and it's helping a great deal. Similarly used the Thor as well, to no benefit at all, other than stabilizing the voltage swing. 

 

At the end of the day, do what's best for YOUR particular system but try out first without it, it may work out far better. 

 

Don't get me wrong, as I said before and I'll reiterate my statement: with the Thor the sound was wonderful but without it, the sound is stunning!

Cheers to all, RJ 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Big Dog RJ

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

then by now Nordost would have made one, they don't!

Your basing an opinion on a product because Nordost don’t make one?

 

ok. 

[Ittaku]

5 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

I'm offering it FOC, if anyone has a use for it.

I'll take it. It'll make for fun experimentation! You can come and listen to my system as some kind of compensation if you like? Otherwise I'll come and get it. Will make an SNA donation too.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Ittaku

[Guest Music monster]

Thanks raj for the wonderful comments on my system , I have to return and have a listen to your clx art again since you removed the thor no doubt it will now sound surberb.thanks mate.gary

[Big Dog RJ]

On 20/12/2018 at 6:51 AM, Sime V2 said:

Your basing an opinion on a product because Nordost don’t make one?

 

ok. 

Yes correct, when it comes to audio accessories, I believe Nordost is right at the top, and all their products deliver 110% outcome of what they claim, you just can't fault them. And they're not cheap... 

 

There's another brand and company that does make accessories and I highly respect them, and that's PS Audio, Paul McGowan knows his stuff. They do make a power block to tame the incoming voltage with Regen technology and delivers a pure sinewave, and these things are phenomenal but as I stated they are not "conditioners ". Once again I state for the nth time, anything that conditions the power from the AC mains will alter that power being drawn from the amplifiers. It's pretty basic physics and science and when you omit this "conditioning gadget," the sonic results are quite profound. 

 

The PS Audio gear works very differently to what the Thor does and similar to what another forum member states as not having transformers, filtering and active tracking, these features all ruin the true quality of high-End audio. 

 

For low-end, or entry level or HT, power conditioning works fine, definitely not for high quality audio reproduction.

I also think we are very lucky down unda, compared to other countries with drastically varying power grids. No good at all for such systems. 

Cheers to all and thanks for sharing your points across.

RJ 

[bob_m_54]

8 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

Yes correct, when it comes to audio accessories, I believe Nordost is right at the top, and all their products deliver 110% outcome of what they claim, you just can't fault them. And they're not cheap... 

 

There's another brand and company that does make accessories and I highly respect them, and that's PS Audio, Paul McGowan knows his stuff. They do make a power block to tame the incoming voltage with Regen technology and delivers a pure sinewave, and these things are phenomenal but as I stated they are not "conditioners ". Once again I state for the nth time, anything that conditions the power from the AC mains will alter that power being drawn from the amplifiers. It's pretty basic physics and science and when you omit this "conditioning gadget," the sonic results are quite profound. 

 

The PS Audio gear works very differently to what the Thor does and similar to what another forum member states as not having transformers, filtering and active tracking, these features all ruin the true quality of high-End audio. 

 

For low-end, or entry level or HT, power conditioning works fine, definitely not for high quality audio reproduction.

I also think we are very lucky down unda, compared to other countries with drastically varying power grids. No good at all for such systems. 

Cheers to all and thanks for sharing your points across.

RJ 

I agree with the last sentence of the highlighted bit.

 

Most important cable in your setup

 

That tends to make it difficult for me to agree with the rest of the bit highlighted.

[Ittaku]

37 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

I agree with the last sentence of the highlighted bit.

 

Most important cable in your setup

 

That tends to make it difficult for me to agree with the rest of the bit highlighted.

That sort of post from them makes me put them on the least-likely-to-buy list.

[Steve M]

11 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

Yes correct, when it comes to audio accessories, I believe Nordost is right at the top, and all their products deliver 110% outcome of what they claim, you just can't fault them. And they're not cheap... 

 

There's another brand and company that does make accessories and I highly respect them, and that's PS Audio, Paul McGowan knows his stuff. They do make a power block to tame the incoming voltage with Regen technology and delivers a pure sinewave, and these things are phenomenal but as I stated they are not "conditioners ". Once again I state for the nth time, anything that conditions the power from the AC mains will alter that power being drawn from the amplifiers. It's pretty basic physics and science and when you omit this "conditioning gadget," the sonic results are quite profound. 

 

The PS Audio gear works very differently to what the Thor does and similar to what another forum member states as not having transformers, filtering and active tracking, these features all ruin the true quality of high-End audio. 

 

For low-end, or entry level or HT, power conditioning works fine, definitely not for high quality audio reproduction.

I also think we are very lucky down unda, compared to other countries with drastically varying power grids. No good at all for such systems. 

Cheers to all and thanks for sharing your points across.

RJ 

 

I am enjoying the honesty in this thread about how useless power conditioning devices generally are, and based on my own experiences over the years also. Like most us experimenting with these things they initially sound ‘different’ maybe considered good, kind of like they smooth the music and makes things sound more refined.  However, with extended listening or removal of such device you realise that they are actually blunting the sound, there’s a loss of life and dynamics, a shrinking of the sound stage and reduction in harmonics and decay to notes.

 

Not sure about the PS Audio power conditioners either? I haven’t had one in my house, but I know of three people with ultra systems who had the RRP $8K PSA P10, and all of them have been removed from the systems over time.

 

I would qualify the above by saying that I would like to hear the power regeneration units from Accuphase, they look to be seriously engineered and I’m not sure a company like that would engage in producing such a device if it did not benefit their other components.

 

Steve.

 

 

 

.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Steve M

[Big Dog RJ]

Cheers Steve, nice to know that someone observes more critically and has experienced the issues with power conditioners...

 

All I said was the experience that I had with a few types before, and then lastly the one I was using here in Aus. 

 

Back in home town cmb, when we had the highend dealership, the brands we offered: amplification: CJ, VTL, Manley, ARC, Krell, Bryston, Parasound, and Plinius. Speaker systems: Magnepan, Apogee, Martin Logan, Quad, Infinity, Theil, Energy, Paradigm and Jamo. These were the main lines we carried amongst a host of other brands as sub-dealers through Spore and Thailand / Malaysia. We sold some pretty heavy gear, mostly top end stuff because we catered only to a certain market that could afford such gear.

 

In nearly 90% of our installations, we had to choose power conditioners mainly due to the erratic power grid, it was awful! Most of our customers bought separate voltage stabilizers, along with power conditioners and used these in conjunction. Even in our own personal reference systems, I used separate stabilizers for each monoblock, and conditioners for the rest of the gear.

 

Fast fwd nearly 20 years, and the overall sound I get from my current system without the use of power conditioners beats all those systems we sold put together, even the mighty Infinity Beta's.

There's just no comparison, the level of transparency, speed and inner detail, along with soundstage depth and resolution is far above. Only now I'm beginning to understand the true potential and top end quality of CJ's monoblocks driving the CLX's.

 

Now, perhaps these previous systems would have sounded far better if not for power conditioning, I don't know. But one thing for sure is, whenever I placed orders, I would fly off to either Spore or Bkk for an audition before buying the consignment. In all the dealers / importers system's, all of them used power conditioners, except for a few. Those few were one of my long term trusted dealer mates, who still is the main importer for Maggie's and Dan D'Agostino amplifiers and CJ. Prior to DD's, he was importing Krell's, and the big stuff, such as Pass Labs, Threshold and Boulder amps. Still to this day he has one of the best audio systems I have ever heard to date, and nothing can surpass it as yet... The Martin Logan Statement Evolution II, what a majestic performance!

 

I'll be visiting his place in Feb for a listen to the new Maggie's MG30.7, driven with a full line up of Dan's Momentum monoblocks. This chap is nearly 70+ years now and still does his martial arts, I guess that keeps him fit. One thing I learned from him in regards to amplification, never rely on external power conditioning elements, unless there's no choice.  Just allow the amplifiers to do their job, and the music will flow allowing the speakers to sing!

 

Cheers to all and enjoy your music. 

RJ

[t_mike]

I'm a little baffled as to the comments about the Thor choking the sound with it's conditioning. That thing ain't a conditioner, it's a variac with a filtering power board, that's why it's so light weight. Don't believe me? Get a techie to open one up. The only component it has that can make a difference is the power board, the rest is just power supply voltage stabilization with a little waveform tidying up. If your incoming voltages are stable, you don't need it.

[Addicted to music]

5 hours ago, t_mike said:

I'm a little baffled as to the comments about the Thor choking the sound with it's conditioning. That thing ain't a conditioner, it's a variac with a filtering power board, that's why it's so light weight. Don't believe me? Get a techie to open one up. The only component it has that can make a difference is the power board, the rest is just power supply voltage stabilization with a little waveform tidying up. If your incoming voltages are stable, you don't need it.

We are talking about this device:

 

https://www.aussiehifi.com.au/products/thor-ps10-smart-power-station?variant=6980199120929&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkLqhmYOl3wIVQyUrCh3hFQVdEAQYASABEgLti_D_BwE

[t_mike]

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

We are talking about this device:

 

https://www.aussiehifi.com.au/products/thor-ps10-smart-power-station?variant=6980199120929&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkLqhmYOl3wIVQyUrCh3hFQVdEAQYASABEgLti_D_BwE

Yes. Mine is an earlier model, but I believe the differences are basically cosmetic. I only use it because I have at times extended periods of 255v power supplied to my home. Also the power on delay after a blackout is a very good idea. I don't use the power board. 

[Snoopy8]

28 minutes ago, t_mike said:

Yes. Mine is an earlier model, but I believe the differences are basically cosmetic. I only use it because I have at times extended periods of 255v power supplied to my home. Also the power on delay after a blackout is a very good idea. I don't use the power board. 

Where did you get cable to connect only the conditioner?

[t_mike]

4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Where did you get cable to connect only the conditioner?

I had a plug attached to a standard power board. Any sparky/technician can do this for you.

[Ittaku]

I was recently lent an Isotek EVO3 Aquarius power conditioner. I gave it a red hot go and auditioned it with every component plugged into it sequentially, including my power amps. I heard nothing, neither good, nor bad, as a result of it being in the power circuit. Your mileage may vary!