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6 hours ago, Stardust said:

@Snoopy8

This is probably audio heresy, but after experimenting I have found positioning the sub on the side wall to give the best (tightest/most musical) results.

This is the correct way! ? You experimented and trusted your ears.

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26 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Thanks @Snoopy8 , but it might be worthwhile investigating the DSP option. Cheers.

The Anti mode suggested by @powerav is the simplest way. Other methods will require calibrated microphone, a DSP (can get both from miniDSP) and a PC to run measurement software (REW) and other software packages.  Should you choose to do measurements, you will need to invest time and effort to learn things but you can get lots of help here.

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Whilst it probably isn't for the uninitiated, running REW( Room Equaliser Wizard) in your room is a very revealing exercise.

Everyone usually says " trust your ears", and that's all well and good. 

Yes , you may think your system sounds great. 

But when you measure it, it makes you realise you have this "great big peak at 40hz" that kicks your kidneys, but there's nothing under 30hz, and there's a giant null at 80hz. You love it. But it's not a "flat response ".

But the specs for your sub says it's flat from from 20hz to 150hz. WTF?????

Your ROOM has more influence on this stuff than your Sub.

You may be extremely lucky and have a perfect room, and thus be able to get away with one really good sub.

But in 99.9% of the time, we don't have perfect rooms .

To get an "accurate" frequency distribution from 20hz( or below) to 150hz you will need at least one sub in one position, then another one in another position to "fill in the holes".

You will probably need to use a DSP ( digital sound processor) to be able to EQ the two subs to give the flatest response at the main seating position, but it's not essential. 

None of this stuff is easy. 

That's why people like @Red Spade Audio make a living out of creating a great sound from any room. 

You could spend $50k on the greatest, biggest ,most mo-fo of a sub , but unless you have a perfect room, you could definitely get something that sounds WAY better by spending less on two( or more) subs that are placed ( and/or EQ'd) in the right places within your room.

 

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Whilst it probably isn't for the uninitiated, running REW( Room Equaliser Wizard) in your room is a very revealing exercise.

Everyone usually says " trust your ears", and that's all well and good. 

Yes , you may think your system sounds great. 

But when you measure it, it makes you realise you have this "great big peak at 40hz" that kicks your kidneys, but there's nothing under 30hz, and there's a giant null at 80hz. You love it. But it's not a "flat response ".

But the specs for your sub says it's flat from from 20hz to 150hz. WTF?????

Your ROOM has more influence on this stuff than your Sub.

You may be extremely lucky and have a perfect room, and thus be able to get away with one really good sub.

But in 99.9% of the time, we don't have perfect rooms .

To get an "accurate" frequency distribution from 20hz( or below) to 150hz you will need at least one sub in one position, then another one in another position to "fill in the holes".

You will probably need to use a DSP ( digital sound processor) to be able to EQ the two subs to give the flatest response at the main seating position, but it's not essential. 

None of this stuff is easy. 

That's why people like [mention=251097]Red Spade Audio[/mention] make a living out of creating a great sound from any room. 

You could spend $50k on the greatest, biggest ,most mo-fo of a sub , but unless you have a perfect room, you could definitely get something that sounds WAY better by spending less on two( or more) subs that are placed ( and/or EQ'd) in the right places within your room.

 

And I wish[mention=112239]Red Spade Audio[/mention] did home calls to Adelaide.... [emoji6]

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On 12/01/2019 at 6:01 PM, Nada said:

if you play music via your sub only with the main speakers unpowered  you might find it easy to locate the subwoofer.

If so, the solution is to not dive them so hard, or use a steeper low pass filter ...... setting them up "near the mains, as 'stereo' subs" isn't a good strategy.

16 hours ago, Stardust said:

Thanks for your posts, but I'm afraid I don't know what a DSP is.

"digital signal processing" .... ie. "EQ".   You already have it inside your Denon amplifier ..... it's the thing which calibrates all the speakers/subwoofers.

 

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12 minutes ago, Kensell21 said:

And I wish[mention=112239]Red Spade Audio[/mention] did home calls to Adelaide.... emoji6.png

He does if you pay the airfare and accommodation (or provide room & board as I did).  I think nowadays will do remote service. You set up ? and follow prompts via webex / vid-conf. 

Edited by frankn
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1 hour ago, IMDave said:

Everyone usually says " trust your ears"

Not everyone ;) 

 

So you say.... All you have to do is test yourself vs measurements, and you will understand the hilarity. 

1 hour ago, IMDave said:

You could spend $50k on the greatest, biggest ,most mo-fo of a sub , but unless you have a perfect room, you could definitely get something that sounds WAY better by spending less on two( or more) subs that are placed ( and/or EQ'd) in the right places within your room.

?

 

.... no, I'm Dave!  ;) 

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Yeah, it always makes me laugh when I  see people say " trust your eyes/ears".

Seriously,  a subjective opinion of what sounds "great" to a novice ( or someone who thinks they know it all for that matter), is just " taste" over accuracy. 

Unless you measure it , you'll  never know whether it's 'right' or not.

Despite how self opinionated everyone feels they are, nobody has a golden  ear/eye. 

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IMO start with a known measurement as a reference.

once you have measured you can see the peaks and troughs.

Only then you can tell if it needs fixing, people can get used to weird FRs and not really know what their system can sound like with an altered FR curve.

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It can get complicated, but there’s a lot of great YouTube vids to step you through everything. 

 

You’d need a mic (UMIK-1 about $100) and a laptop with REW software to measure the room and adjust the curve. https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

 

Then you can buy a mini-DSP (about $300) or use Roon), or maybe your AVR to implement the new frequency curve.

 

Other alternatives, like DEQX exist, but they’re way more expensive and I’m not so sure they’re simple. They do send someone out to do it for you I think.

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2 minutes ago, Kensell21 said:


emoji1785.png.

As I found out, for the price of an audio consult to measure your room and tell you where you could put acoustic treatment, you could buy a mic and a mini-DSP, watch you tube, and do it yourself :)

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21 hours ago, Stardust said:

@Snoopy8 @Gridmon  Thanks for your posts, but I'm afraid I don't know what a DSP is.

 

In my system I use one sub, positioned on the side wall (pointing directly across the room) about half way between my mains and the optimal listening position. This is probably audio heresy, but after experimenting I have found positioning the sub on the side wall to give the best (tightest/most musical) results.

Well I think you have gone a fair way to providing your own proof about low frequencies interacting with the room. As mentioned the dual subs + positioning +  eq (ie tweaking the signal with a DSP eg the one in your amp and/or others) is all about trying to get the best most realistic reproduction in your environment. You would be lucky indeed if one sub in your room is all that’s needed.

 

My Umik mic just arrived. Looking forward to measuring my room and seeing what it does. It’s apretty awful room with only one solid wall to hang tv on, 2 others are floor to ceiling glass and last one is half open to kitchen (half height partition), floor is all hard surface too (wood) and ceiling is glass in a pyramid shape.

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11 hours ago, IMDave said:

when I  see people say " trust your eyes/ears".

It will answer one question, "do you like this?"  :)

11 hours ago, IMDave said:

nobody has a golden  ear/eye. 

I spent a decade trying to leverage my "golden ear" for speaker design .... before I realised it was mostly a farce.

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6 hours ago, Gridmon said:

My Umik mic just arrived. Looking forward to measuring my room and seeing what it does. It’s apretty awful room with only one solid wall to hang tv on, 2 others are floor to ceiling glass and last one is half open to kitchen (half height partition), floor is all hard surface too (wood) and ceiling is glass in a pyramid shape.

That sounds OK for bass.  The hardness of the surfaces isn't relevant, but how much they flex.   Wood and glass are much better than concrete/brick.

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49 minutes ago, Stardust said:

@davewantsmoore  So if I'm not mistaken, what you are saying is that the human ear is not to be trusted when it comes to home audio. Apparently, we all need to invest in expensive equipment, which will tell us when our ears are experiencing audio nirvana

No that's not what I'm saying.

 

To tell you if you like you "like" something... your ears are the most appropriate tool.

 

To tell you if there is distortion, or a peak or a dip on the response... or the left and right speakers aren't lined up properly (etc. etc.)  ..... then your ears (even very !!!experienced ones) do a very poor job of this.

 

ie. you don't have to go out an buy equipment to tell you if you like something.... but juts cos you say you like it doesn't mean it's actually any good.

49 minutes ago, Stardust said:

.....Ha, Ha, Ha! I would have thought that it is the human ear....above all other considerations...which will tell us when the measuring equipment has finally got it right.

What is a "good measurement" is obviously based on our knowledge of how we hear sound.

 

... however, no.   Your areas are not very good at identifying or quantifying problems with your stereo.

49 minutes ago, Stardust said:

I for one won't be purchasing any of this fancy equipment

A SPL meter costs very little.    I don't reckon I paid more than $20 for my outside one.

49 minutes ago, Stardust said:

and I'll bet my britches that I'll still hit on the right spot (after some experimentation) for positioning of subs or any speaker for that matter.

Bass is the frequency range where your ear is the worst....    I'm sure you will chose a spot that you are happy with, and that you like, by using your ear.    It will be fairly poorly setup.

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2 hours ago, Stardust said:

@davewantsmoore  So if I'm not mistaken, what you are saying is that the human ear is not to be trusted when it comes to home audio. Apparently, we all need to invest in expensive equipment, which will tell us when our ears are experiencing audio nirvana.....Ha, Ha, Ha! I would have thought that it is the human ear....above all other considerations...which will tell us when the measuring equipment has finally got it right. When it comes to music (or the appreciation of sound reproduction), give me the human ear every time.

 

I for one won't be purchasing any of this fancy equipment and I'll bet my britches that I'll still hit on the right spot (after some experimentation) for positioning of subs or any speaker for that matter.

REW is free

Umik-1 is about $140 or the Dayton UMM-6 is $160 from LSK in Australia

...and you need a laptop or PC nearby.

so it's not THAT expensive to get a measurement rig up and running

 

I'm sure it's possible to get a nice flat bass response at the MLP just using your ears, but I'm also sure the process would be 100x quicker (and more accurate) with a  calibrated mic and REW.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Stardust said:

 

What a lot of tosh. Totally needless complexity. Trust your ears, or get a musical friend to do that for you.

Not sure whether you're trolling, but one thing's for sure: 

The more you learn, the more you appreciate you don't know very much.??

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3 hours ago, Stardust said:

What a lot of tosh.

Nope just reality.     You can test it for yourself, that's the great thing about reality.

 

If you have never measured the result, then you would never know whether you picked the errors accurately by ear.    All you know is that you found the result acceptable.

 

 

People use "measuring tapes", because they know they cannot accurately enough determine the dimensions of things "by eye" ..... but in fact we are much (!!!) better at "by eye measurements" than we are at picking an error in a speaker reproducing an audio recording.

 

Edited by davewantsmoore
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32 minutes ago, Stardust said:

 

Well, it's evident to me that you appear not to know very much and accusations of trolling is the last refuge of the ignorant.

Good luck. Bye for now.

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Back on topic. So whether two subs are better than one, is best determined by listening. Throw away those fancy gadgets and measuring equipment....they're all but useless...and trust to your ears.

Oh noooo. Both my new subs come with builtin DSPs and have fancy apps to use. How can I throw that **** out and still have some bottom end for my LS50s?
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4 hours ago, Gridmon said:


Oh noooo. Both my new subs come with builtin DSPs and have fancy apps to use. How can I throw that **** out and still have some bottom end for my LS50s?

 

Don't worry, Gmon - 2 subs is definitely better than one ... for several reasons.  And for some of those reasons ... 4 subs is better than 2!  :thumb:  And you need the DSP to integrate them optimally.

 

Andy

 

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Thumbs up to 4! I had 4 for a couple of years...

 
Don't worry, Gmon - 2 subs is definitely better than one ... for several reasons.  And for some of those reasons ... 4 subs is better than 2!  :thumb:  And you need the DSP to integrate them optimally.
 
Andy
 
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On 15/01/2019 at 4:00 PM, Stardust said:

Back on topic. So whether two subs are better than one, is best determined by listening. 

Listening will tell you whether or not you like a specific setup, or not......   It won't tell you anything else.    You won't know the cause of what you are listening to (eg. too many subwoofers, or poorly setup?).

 

You should expect that adding additional bass sources will lower distortion due to not moving the woofers as much for the same SPL .... and smooths the frequency response due to the acoustic modal behaviour of a room  (ie. the problem is that not enough room modes are excited).

 

Both of these things are usually a problem that needs to be solved, but not necessarily.

 

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