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How to get that ‘live’ bass drum kick from HT?


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I saw a live band (crappy Christmas carols lol) last week and again I was enthralled by the bass kick coming from the drum set sent into a wide, open field environment. The music was at a certain level but the bass was kicking hard without distorting the rest of the sound. I’ve always wanted this type of dynamic sound at home, say when playing music or an explosion goes off in a movie. However turning up the gain or power on the sub amp increases all the background bass and sounds pretty bad.

 

how can I get this type of sound at home?

 

I have 2x dual 15inch opposes home made subs and a inuke6000dsp to work with. I have dsp the response to be pretty flat at the moment.

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Hey Troy, I have exposure and work in live environments of various scale as a front of house audio engineer. There's a few of elements at play: - high sensitivity drivers able to achieve high volume

I hear you! I remember a conversation I had many years ago with a well-known veteran rocker that happened to be a Hi-Fi enthusiast also. He said to me, "the problem with 95% of hifi speakers is t

Your subs and available watts seem great. What are the drivers and subs cabinets?   To get chest thump I speculate we need need impact at chest wall resonant frequencies via high spl dynamic

Unfortunately, a flat DSP response is not enough.  To get good bass at home requires understanding of the room, room treatment, careful placement of subs and use of DSP.  It takes work, suggest reading

https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/

 

If it is all too hard, then pay someone to do it.

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I hear you! I remember a conversation I had many years ago with a well-known veteran rocker that happened to be a Hi-Fi enthusiast also.

He said to me, "the problem with 95% of hifi speakers is they don't reproduce that snap of the kick drum that can feel in your chest". I agreed at the time.

Just yesterday I went to a very small local community festival. There was a stage and PA system set up by the local recording studio. As I walked nearer I could clearly hear the 'snap', and I was very impressed with the sound of the band overall.

 

Coincidentally I recalled that conversation from years ago just yesterday, and it reminded me why I like my JBL K2s so much. They do that live sound just so well. Complete with the 'snap'. 

 

Perhaps they're not as refined and polite as some of the higher-end 'reference' level speakers at the same price point on the market, but they're fun and allow me to enjoy music the way 'I' like it.

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I guessing if you know the frequency of the kick drum you could match a bigger driver with more power behind it to cover that range.

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Have to agree with Marc on this. The only speakers currently made today that accurately replicate drums (not imitate), are JBL Tannoy Prestige and Klipsch speakers. 

 

I once took my snare drum and recorded a few whacks on a CD-R to see what would happen. The JBL and Tannoy were the only ones that did it!

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58 minutes ago, Marc said:

Coincidentally I recalled that conversation from years ago just yesterday, and it reminded me why I like my JBL K2s so much. They do that live sound just so well. Complete with the 'snap'. 

Have you ever listened to them with the ports closed? If so, does that 'snap' remain or disappear?

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43 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Have you ever listened to them with the ports closed? If so, does that 'snap' remain or disappear?

No I can't say I have. There's a single rear port that in my room, works best with the speakers less than 1 metre from the rear wall.

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I saw a live band (crappy Christmas carols lol) last week and again I was enthralled by the bass kick coming from the drum set sent into a wide, open field environment. The music was at a certain level but the bass was kicking hard without distorting the rest of the sound. I’ve always wanted this type of dynamic sound at home, say when playing music or an explosion goes off in a movie. However turning up the gain or power on the sub amp increases all the background bass and sounds pretty bad.
 
how can I get this type of sound at home?
 
I have 2x dual 15inch opposes home made subs and a inuke6000dsp to work with. I have dsp the response to be pretty flat at the moment.
Hey Troy,

I have exposure and work in live environments of various scale as a front of house audio engineer.

There's a few of elements at play:
- high sensitivity drivers able to achieve high volume very efficiently from a watts/amplification point of view.
- Frequency response and EQ used to achieve that sound.

First you must consider the environment you're in. A music concert and large PAs with line arrays, stacks of subwoofers is there to achieve a certain outcome at a certain volume level, within a certain space or seating capacity.
These systems are not always about achieving a ruler flat bass response to 15hz, for example.
It's not practical or needed. The lowest bass note from a bass guitar is an E @ 42hz.

These PAs or their sub processing typically have rolloffs built in to allow large volume without tiring or over-excursion. It's the SPL vs FR trade off.
So it could be 30hz or up to 40 or even I've seen specs 42 and 45hz rolloffs begin, even if they are minor on a dB per octave scale.

At home, where movies have a lot of sound below 60hz on the LFE track, these frequencies are more important. And we all want 20hz in our rooms at high levels.

These frequencies below 35hz can make a kick drum sound slow.
A kick drum has a lot of 55 - 70hz in particular 62hz.

At high volume those frequencies can hit your chest nicely.
But as an engineer, if I were to try and EQ in a live situation lots of 35hz on a kick drum I will tire out the sub drivers, and most likely end up with a lower overall volume and the kick won't sound tight.

Now in home theatre rare I see lots of 55-70hz peaks in our subwoofers response, right? Always lots of 30,40hz etc.

So, I'd try, if you can have a multiple subwoofers EQ option at home, put in a decent boost around 55hz or so and even try roll of from 25hz but just for your music.

Your sub will be able to achieve notably more volume and will sound tighter and you may be able to achieve a slightly similar sound on kick drums on a blu ray...

This is part of why I upgraded my subs - I went from 89dB sensitivity per 1w to 100dB 1w. And their response is very flat which I like

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48 minutes ago, Neilsy said:

These frequencies below 35hz can make a kick drum sound slow.

That idea was floating around in my head, that full range systems flat to 20Hz may sound "slower" especially with the extra standing waves in room of the lower frequencies.

I notice the JBL's mentioned roll-off pretty sharply bass wise: http://www.keithhaddock.com/assets/_managed/products/files/JBLK2.S9900release.pdf with -6db 48Hz and -10db at 33Hz.

 

Edited by Satanica
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Reluctant to reply to this until Santiniia posted that link. I have Bose 901 and since I have had my equaliser rebuilt and added an amp with a 1000 watt it has changed the sound of the these speakers. They always sounded good but now  have base that is unbelievable. The whole range has improved. Have changed sound source with oppo and lossless music. The lossess improves the bass. Tracks like Time on DSOTM and the bass solo on Fleetwood Mac Chain rattle the couch and the whole room and this is at about quarter volume. I expect most will poo hoo this but they have not heard them set up properly with decent power. They are power hungry. Have listened to quite a few other speakers and always leave me feeling underwhelmed. 

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7 hours ago, Troyus_ said:

....I have 2x dual 15inch opposes home made subs and a inuke6000dsp to work with. I have dsp the response to be pretty flat at the moment.

Your subs and available watts seem great. What are the drivers and subs cabinets?

 

To get chest thump I speculate we need need impact at chest wall resonant frequencies via high spl dynamic pulses free from being swamped by room nodes and reflections.  Playing outdoors gives a massive advantage in freedom from resonance and reflections. Whats your room like?

 

You might want to try boosting bass in your DSP significantly in the kick drum range

1200px-Lindos1.svg.png

A kickdrum range

 

image.thumb.jpeg.2415fc7acd5090448023d6f9cb451443.jpeg

 

 gjmky.jpg

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With the 63hz freq in mind and reference to the human body part freq above, I think that’s where we need to be humping the bass curve more in our speaker bass systems. A lot of people are just chasing low as possible flat extension around 20-30hz or higher if the driver can’t do less but chest thumpiness in my experience happens more around 37 - 50+ hz ish.

 

Its still good to try and have both chest thumpiness plus a reasonably low 25 - 35hz response or at least a feeling of that.

 

When I try to model on paper a DIY box ported design I like to shorten the port less than theoretical flat response, which always sounds boring to me and instead achieve a moderate hump in the response above f3 response that is more likely to get chest thumping response.

 

The above is obviously a rudimentery description.

Edited by Al.M
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4 hours ago, Neilsy said:

....
These frequencies below 35hz can make a kick drum sound slow.
A kick drum has a lot of 55 - 70hz in particular 62hz.

At high volume those frequencies can hit your chest nicely.
But as an engineer, if I were to try and EQ in a live situation lots of 35hz on a kick drum I will tire out the sub drivers, and most likely end up with a lower overall volume and the kick won't sound tight.

Now in home theatre rare I see lots of 55-70hz peaks in our subwoofers response, right? Always lots of 30,40hz etc.

So, I'd try, if you can have a multiple subwoofers EQ option at home, put in a decent boost around 55hz or so and even try roll of from 25hz but just for your music.
....

Thank you.  I am running integrated dual subs with a DSP in my 2 channel system and tried your suggestion with a target curve that rolled off below 25 Hz and it made a difference compared to a target curve with a flat response below 25 Hz.  The kick drum in Dire Straits Money for Nothing is now better than ever..  👍😀😁

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Horn loaded subs is what works for me. I built a Bill Fitzmaurice designed "Table Tuba" (front loaded horn sub) with a Dayton Audio Reference 10"HF driver.  This thing just slams! powerful, fast & tight as a fishes ass! Very high efficiency and only uses a very small amount of watts...Very low distortion too. 

 

I also built a sealed 18" Dayton Audio (Reference HO driver) sub in 4.5cf, powered with DA SPA 1000w amp.......only to be left disappointed when compared to the BF TT sub.

Yes, the sealed 18" dug deeper, but lacked the fast, powerful & tight slam of the BF TT!  I've moved the sealed 18" sub on to a new owner...

 

If you have the room for Horn Loaded subs, then they might be what you're after. They really do hit you in the chest with clean, tight, powerful & exciting bass!

 

 

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19 hours ago, Troyus_ said:

how can I get this type of sound at home?

Do not turn up the subwoofer.  Once it is set at the "correct" level, leave it there.  Instead, apply EQ through your AV processor.   Increase the levels between approximately 50Hz and 200Hz.

 

---

Troyus' post doesn't give us enough info to know there is anything lacking about the speakers .... so it's hard to jump to more/better subwoofers ....  especially when the 'live kick' is at the very upper end of subwoofer frequencies.

 

Troyus' post does tells us that he's doing something wrong (increasing the subwoofer level)...... so I think "start there".

Edited by davewantsmoore
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I have never heard kick drum bass sound as good as live as l always figured a kick drum at live concerts is direct mic'd and mixed to sound that way. The recording in the studio generally doesn't overemphersize the kick drum so no amount of 15's will get you that same sound as everything else will be louder also.

 

 

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What speakers are you running along with the dual 15" subs?

 

I think a lot of that "slam" that is felt through midbass region (maybe around 50-120hz?), some of which is probably right in the crossover region between your subs and speakers, if they aren't time aligned/integrated well and you have a huge gaping null where the they crossover to each other this can take away a LOT of the chest slam/impact from drums. This made a HUGE difference in my room.

IMHO you also need to be listening at least "reasonably loud" to get some of the visceral impact from drums as well.

On that same note, you need speakers (along with enough amp power) to handle the dynamic range in these frequencies. No use having subs capable of 120dB peaks crossing over to speakers that are compressing heavily with 100dB peaks.

Depending on your speakers, you could try crossing over your subs at 100-120hz and let them handle more of this range and see if it helps

Edited by jamiebosco
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24 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

I think a lot of that "slam" that is felt through midbass region (maybe around 50-120hz?), some of which is probably right in the crossover region between your subs and speakers, if they aren't time aligned/integrated well and you have a huge gaping null where the they crossover to each other

This ^^^

 

Also, the slam extends right up to 200, 300Hz .... but this frequency region is where small rooms typically have nulls created by the distance from the speaker to the nearest walls, and back to the listener.

 

.... so you can get multiple "holes" through the 3 octaves from 50 to 400 .... which can "disappear" some important frequencies.

 

 

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That idea was floating around in my head, that full range systems flat to 20Hz may sound "slower" especially with the extra standing waves in room of the lower frequencies.
I notice the JBL's mentioned roll-off pretty sharply bass wise: http://www.keithhaddock.com/assets/_managed/products/files/JBLK2.S9900release.pdf with -6db 48Hz and -10db at 33Hz.
 
See Nexo Geo D:
http://www.gtaust.com/product_details/category/live/product/Nexo_GEO_SUB_Directional_Sub-bass

-6dB @35hz ...

Then check out one of the above responses showing a kick typical FR...
As you see, there is a lot LESS real LF data than people may think. It's the huge 60hz region per the body slam picture above as well....

The free field thing is definitely true. When I've done outdoor PA work room nodes just aren't an issue, you do need more PA but you can get a tightly controlled kick in the chest.

Indoor venues, depending on size, mean you end up having room resonances come into play but also room gain benefits but also the negatives.

E.g. If a room helps you add 6-9dB from bass reflex off a wall, a corner, etc that pressure is not arriving at your ears at the same time as what the sub /cone is producing. Effectively therefore the speakers works less. But in doing so, it's producing less instant SPL output - - which is what is needed for chest thump.

Try this test for fun.... Play a track with a kick drum, turn your system up and then get right in front of your sub. You should experience some chest thump to a degree.
This is due to the body experiencing higher SPL whilst being basically void of room interference.

Now stand up, take steps back, and likely the effect has gone.
In our small homes the room is now colourising this affect.

So.. Room treatment in the bass region is critical to help cease nodes overlapping each other, combing and cancellations.
Then the sub volume can actually come up and you might be able to achieve something, but likely you'll need your system up quite 'loud'
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2 hours ago, Neilsy said:

See Nexo Geo 😧
http://www.gtaust.com/product_details/category/live/product/Nexo_GEO_SUB_Directional_Sub-bass

-6dB @35hz ...

Then check out one of the above responses showing a kick typical FR...
As you see, there is a lot LESS real LF data than people may think. It's the huge 60hz region per the body slam picture above as well....

The free field thing is definitely true. When I've done outdoor PA work room nodes just aren't an issue, you do need more PA but you can get a tightly controlled kick in the chest.

Indoor venues, depending on size, mean you end up having room resonances come into play but also room gain benefits but also the negatives.

E.g. If a room helps you add 6-9dB from bass reflex off a wall, a corner, etc that pressure is not arriving at your ears at the same time as what the sub /cone is producing. Effectively therefore the speakers works less. But in doing so, it's producing less instant SPL output - - which is what is needed for chest thump.

Try this test for fun.... Play a track with a kick drum, turn your system up and then get right in front of your sub. You should experience some chest thump to a degree.
This is due to the body experiencing higher SPL whilst being basically void of room interference.

Now stand up, take steps back, and likely the effect has gone.
In our small homes the room is now colourising this affect.

So.. Room treatment in the bass region is critical to help cease nodes overlapping each other, combing and cancellations.
Then the sub volume can actually come up and you might be able to achieve something, but likely you'll need your system up quite 'loud'

Some good information again thanks; some of which I'm aware of.

 

In my case I've found it's a bit damned if I do and damned if I don't.

If I remove my subs(s) out of the corners I end up with large nulls.

As you probably know by corner loading subs it will excite more room modes which will more likely reduce room nulls.

 

I get some chest thump right now, but not live concert level for sure.

What I'm thinking of doing is bringing down the crossover point of my mains from 80Hz to 50-60Hz to overlap the subwoofers.

Then there'll be four more 10 inch drivers working in the "chest thump" region along with my three subwoofers.

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5 hours ago, Neilsy said:


But as an engineer, if I were to try and EQ in a live situation lots of 35hz on a kick drum I will tire out the sub drivers, and most likely end up with a lower overall volume and the kick won't sound tight. 

.....

Your sub will be able to achieve notably more volume and will sound tighter and you may be able to achieve a slightly similar sound on kick drums on a blu ray...
.....
This is part of why I upgraded my subs - I went from 89dB sensitivity per 1w to 100dB 1w. And their response is very flat which I like
 

 

Catching up on this thread; referring to the above quotes -  very interesting observations, thanks for your detailed post.  

 

Large diameter drivers with high efficiency tend to always impress me in the LF department, but it is a very interesting perspective of yours that there may be this trade-off:  that a driver may impress more around 50Hz if it is not asked to deliver high output in the 30Hz region at the same time.

 

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2 hours ago, marten said:

that a driver may impress more around 50Hz if it is not asked to deliver high output in the 30Hz region at the same time.

Yes... it is important to keep distortion below audible levels, and this can be difficult in the bass.

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Do drummers themselves experience chest slap when they pound the kick drum?

 

Is chest slap a creation of sound engineering?

 

Does chest slap only happen at >110dB?

 

Does chest slap = hearing damage?

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5 hours ago, Nada said:

Do drummers themselves experience chest slap when they pound the kick drum?

 

Is chest slap a creation of sound engineering?

 

Does chest slap only happen at >110dB?

 

Does chest slap = hearing damage?

Chest slap or the feeling of as far as I reckon is demonstrated in one of the emails above showing the human stick figure where human biology body sound freq resonance shows the human chest cavity or the muscle diaphragm or combination of the two typically resonates at 63hz thereabouts, not much higher or lower.

 

Chest slap and hearing damage will not only depend on one particular frequency. Worksafe legislation codes and standards about hearing damage safety levels refer to a broad range of the octave frequencies that exist such as in music and a total of that expressed as 85dB Leq (A) over an 8 hour exposure period, see chart below for higher noise levels vs less time exposure (Note: A weighted bell curve, not a flat or linear noise measurement as often mentioned in hifi).

 

Exposure to any high noise environment, commonly concerts, home audio and work related activities will gradually cause loss of hearing permantly over time if you constantly and repeatedly exceed the limits set in the charts below according to hearing health medical sources. 1 in 5 people experience these issues in western countries though not only from loud music exposure, and above 50 years age related hearing loss increases dramatically according the stats.

 

The last chart below isn’t quite right but helps to demonstrate hearing damage for too loud a music environment as the Australian safe noise limit for 8 hours is 85 dB(A), not 40 hours, the rest correspondingly less.

 

The chest slap affect would vary for each person per decibel loudness level depending on your body mass, fat etc.

 

Post edit: Personally I have felt this in concerts emiting a 30m distance from stage to mixing desk level at around 95dB(A) vs above post saying 110dB (no weighting stated so means nothing, but likely to be Z or linear weighting, that might translate to about 103dB(A)) still some ways off my experience at much less perceived hearing loudness.

 

17BD64B4-ECD1-46BB-ACAA-710213E62910.png

9E5C5080-7B52-4C67-957E-86525EF10955.jpeg

3025027C-CEBD-4F1D-8BD4-6FBEF65EEA3E.png

DA101721-FDC8-4C49-98C1-B024593F3A65.png

Edited by Al.M
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Interesting thread.  I do like a 'live' sound.

Have always preferred 12" drivers in a nice big box for my main stereo speakers to maintain a good even clean response into the lower bass regions.

 

I also have a PA system for band and party duties. The main speakers are DIY with Etone 1225 Woofers and CTS (Motorola) rectangular horns in 90L ported enclosures.  I designed the crossover for a smooth transition from the woofer to the horn, but the limitation of the box size and the port design I used for extending the bass a little, resulted in a small hump in the region we are discussing.

 

When using them for the band (folk/country/bluegrass styles) I EQ a little to even it out, but I must admit that when using them for a party, (or a fun listening session during setup or the day after) I do prefer to leave it flat and enjoy that extra bit of 'kick'.

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To get the chest thump you do need a considerable amount of SPL. Something that home speakers are generally not designed for. At least not without high amounts of distortion and more importantly large compression.

To get the crisp 'snap' of the drum kit, including the bass drum you need enormous dynamic range in the 100-500Hz region. This has little to do with the subwoofer when talking HT.

Any reasonable recording will be good enough. You don't need a live band hooked up directly to get this chest thump and snap.

The room comes into play. With a single subwoofer, your typical frequency response will be full of peaks an nulls making the bass sound limp and swampy. With two well-placed subwoofers, the problem will be halved. A third well-placed subwoofer can tighten up the bass tremendously to outperform a single sub by a large margin.

large and lightweight cone. This is completely contrary to most home speakers, that achieve reasonably deep bass from very small enclosures. It's a tradeoff. The laws of physics are quite clear on this. Add mass to get bass extension, power handling and compression will suffer. Sure, we can design extreme excursion drivers and huge amps to somewhat compensate, but compression and impulse response is no match to an efficient design that all things equal, will be physically huge in comparison.

@Marc describes his experience with a large efficient speaker very well earlier in this thread. Practicality and personal preference are of course large factors in all of this.

/Mark

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Do drummers themselves experience chest slap when they pound the kick drum?
 
Is chest slap a creation of sound engineering?
 
Does chest slap only happen at >110dB?
 
Does chest slap = hearing damage?
Generally speaking I'd say, no. Drummers will get the most acoustic noise from the kit, definitely vibrations from hitting the bass drum but not in those lower frequency regions.

The sound is typically 'crafted' or 'enhanced' through the mics and mixing console so what is heard from the PA is often different.
110dB of a kick drum, per acoustic truth would hurt... 110dB of 60hz in the chest is typically the opposite.
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Some good information again thanks; some of which I'm aware of.
 
In my case I've found it's a bit damned if I do and damned if I don't.
If I remove my subs(s) out of the corners I end up with large nulls.
As you probably know by corner loading subs it will excite more room modes which will more likely reduce room nulls.
 
I get some chest thump right now, but not live concert level for sure.
What I'm thinking of doing is bringing down the crossover point of my mains from 80Hz to 50-60Hz to overlap the subwoofers.
Then there'll be four more 10 inch drivers working in the "chest thump" region along with my three subwoofers.
Hmmm.. I'm not sure I'd recommend that and not because your 10 inch drivers probably aren't capable but in a home theatre environment the LFE channel is meant to be level tuned to 10dB louder than the mains...
So following simple math, yes you may have more speaker cones emitting 50-70hz but only at that channel level - which will be 10dB less than LFE(sub) level.

I have 15" drivers in my main speakers and yet I actually find 80-90hz LFE to my 18" Cyclonix subs to be the sweet spot of sending them LFE data as it retains a strong 50-70hz presence.
Dropping to a point where only 50hz and lower is sent to the subs will thicken your bass but possibly make it too rubbery and slow.
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2 minutes ago, Neilsy said:

Hmmm.. I'm not sure I'd recommend that and not because your 10 inch drivers probably aren't capable but in a home theatre environment the LFE channel is meant to be level tuned to 10dB louder than the mains...
So following simple math, yes you may have more speaker cones emitting 50-70hz but only at that channel level - which will be 10dB less than LFE(sub) level.

I have 15" drivers in my main speakers and yet I actually find 80-90hz LFE to my 18" Cyclonix subs to be the sweet spot of sending them LFE data as it retains a strong 50-70hz presence.
Dropping to a point where only 50hz and lower is sent to the subs will thicken your bass but possibly make it too rubbery and slow.

I'm going to try leaving the sub-wooofers at 80Hz and then simply lower my mains from 80Hz to 50-60Hz.

This is with a miniDSP, not an AVR or HT processor.

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On 11/12/2018 at 11:37 PM, Al.M said:

Chest slap and hearing damage will not only depend on one particular frequency. Worksafe legislation codes and standards about hearing damage safety levels refer to a broad range of the octave frequencies that exist such as in music and a total of that expressed as 85dB Leq (A) over an 8 hour exposure period, see chart below for higher noise levels vs less time exposure (Note: A weighted bell curve, not a flat or linear noise measurement as often mentioned in hifi).

Note:  Because of the A-weighting ..... 60Hz will never be above this limit.... as it would require 60Hz @ ~110dB (unweighted) for 8 hours.

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20 hours ago, m8audio said:

To get the crisp 'snap' of the drum kit, including the bass drum you need enormous dynamic range in the 100-500Hz region. This has little to do with the subwoofer when talking HT.

Any reasonable recording will be good enough. You don't need a live band hooked up directly to get this chest thump and snap.

The room comes into play. With a single subwoofer, your typical frequency response will be full of peaks an nulls making the bass sound limp and swampy. With two well-placed subwoofers, the problem will be halved. A third well-placed subwoofer can tighten up the bass tremendously to outperform a single sub by a large margin.


High quality thread.  Another insightful post, thanks Mark.

 

One of my favourite music types is solo piano (pure acoustic), and I get visceral sensations from sitting about 30ft from a grand piano when the soloist bangs out some LF chords (bum off the seat, hair flying...).   

A piano has a surprising amount of dynamic range.  When reproduced, it is relatively easy to hear any distortion in your chain. And I find it's difficult to reproduce that exploding piano effect cleanly in your listening room.

 

So I have been fussing about my subwoofers and crossover points, but the above insights from guys with pro audio and live sound experience are sure useful, encouraging more focus on the 100Hz +  freq range.
 

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11 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Note:  Because of the A-weighting ..... 60Hz will never be above this limit.... as it would require 60Hz @ ~110dB (unweighted) for 8 hours.

Are you saying we can listen to 60Hz at 110dB for hours without hearing damage?  I do like visceral bass in rock  but I dont want to do deaf.

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The realm of the occupational hygienist. As a layman:

 

Earmuffs are required at 85dB for 8 hour dose (of noise) so as to protect the population as a whole. IIRC there are some outliers, these are people to whom lesser exposure can be as damaging as 8 hours to most. Also note that it's dose-related: that it works out to 8 hours at 85bB. Extreme spikes of course cause critical hearing damage (120dB anyone)?

 

[Text deleted because @Al.M covers it far better in the post below ]

 

More info from earmuff manufacturers' web sites and the American Occupational Hygienists for the background and research into noise dose.

 

So the query can be answered but needs to come back to a benchmark, say 85dB at 8 hours. "Does a noise dose 85dB at 8 hours of 60Hz sound cause less damage than the noise 85dB at 8 hours of full spectrum noise (low med high frequency combined)?"

Edited by ThirdDrawerDown
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12 hours ago, ThirdDrawerDown said:

earmuffs at 85dB for 8 hours protection also provide

Would have thought the ear muffs provide greater than that protection and here is an explanation, which shows greater levels of protection from ear muffs....

 

quote: 

How does NRR change decibels of exposure?

“When hearing protection is worn, your level of exposure to noise is based on the NRR rating of the protection device being used. Keep in mind, however, that while the NRR is measured in decibels, the hearing protector being used does not reduce the surrounding decibel level by the exact number of decibels associated with that protector’s NRR. For example, if you are at a rock concert where the level of noise exposure is 100 dB and you are wearing earplugs with an NRR 33dB, your level of exposure would not be reduced to 67 dB. Instead, to determine the actual amount of decibel deduction applied (when decibels are measured dBA which is the most common), you take the NRR number (in dB), subtract seven, and then divide by two. Given the previous example, your noise reduction equation would look like the following: (33-7)/2 = 13. This means that if you are at a rock concert with a level of noise exposure at 100 dB and you are wearing a hearing protector with an NRR 33 dB, your new level of noise exposure is 87 dB. If you are wearing a product with an NRR of 27 it would deduct 10 decibels (27-7/2=10).”

 

Also, 60Hz @ 110dB is just pure theoretical as in practice listening to music and just about every normal sound source in the human world there will rarely if ever be just a single frequency to contend with. It will nearly always be broad spectrum. So things like a bass note will range from say 20 - 200+ Hz. A single freq tone of whatever 60, 500 or 1000hz etc has nothing in it of itself that one would enjoy as music. You can hear examples of single tones though possibly not perfectly accurate frequencies depending what the iPad, tablet speakers can do at such links as http://onlinetonegenerator.com/

Edited by Al.M
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it's all been said above

To replicate the "kick in the chest" feel of an outdoor concert you need a treated room that soaks up the bass and decent speakers in the 60 - 300Hz range where that "kick in the chest" range is - nothing to do with subs.

Without room treatment, the bass will hang/reverberate, and you won't get that snap/slam - it will be "smeared" or more muddy.

 

The mid bass slam of my TD18s running 40Hz - 350Hz in a treated room is staggering - so good I created a thread seeking out tracks that have the "kick in the chest" feel

It doesn't need to be that loud to feel it - the room just needs to have a "dry" sound in the 100-500Hz region.

You end up wearing a silly grin and turning the bass up on the remote - tight dry bass is completely addictive.

 

Unfortunately you lose the ability to cope with boomy bass and ask friends to turn the bass down on their systems/in their cars cos it sounds so bad.

 

Mike

 

 

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A lot of great info in this thread, thanks. 

 

I use to mix live bands years ago as a hobby, so I was far from a professional. The best kick sound I have ever had from my home system is about 20 years ago when I had to do with what I had and I built 2 sealed subwoofers using 10" Alpine car subs I bought off a mate cheaply. 

 

They were very average for Movies but for rock music, especially the kick drum they were out of this world. 

 

They didn't go low, which makes the 55hz comments above ring true. 

 

I am still to this day trying to get that live kick sound back in my lounge room. 

 

Edited by Hytram
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In my experience ( the best man at my wedding was / is a drummer ) 

So I have heard my fair share of drumming in practice and live gigs 

Horn loaded subs “ coupled with” high sensitivity drivers are the best match 

 

One issue that may impact the soundwave timing is slow lumbering bass 

So the answer is to use an active subwoofer with high sensitivity drivers  - let’s say over 95db 

 

My Klipsch speakers do a very good job reproducing drum prat 

 

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