How to get that ‘live’ bass drum kick from HT?

[Troyus_]

I saw a live band (crappy Christmas carols lol) last week and again I was enthralled by the bass kick coming from the drum set sent into a wide, open field environment. The music was at a certain level but the bass was kicking hard without distorting the rest of the sound. I’ve always wanted this type of dynamic sound at home, say when playing music or an explosion goes off in a movie. However turning up the gain or power on the sub amp increases all the background bass and sounds pretty bad.

 

how can I get this type of sound at home?

 

I have 2x dual 15inch opposes home made subs and a inuke6000dsp to work with. I have dsp the response to be pretty flat at the moment.

[Snoopy8]

Unfortunately, a flat DSP response is not enough.  To get good bass at home requires understanding of the room, room treatment, careful placement of subs and use of DSP.  It takes work, suggest reading

https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/

 

If it is all too hard, then pay someone to do it.

[Marc]

I hear you! I remember a conversation I had many years ago with a well-known veteran rocker that happened to be a Hi-Fi enthusiast also.

He said to me, "the problem with 95% of hifi speakers is they don't reproduce that snap of the kick drum that can feel in your chest". I agreed at the time.

Just yesterday I went to a very small local community festival. There was a stage and PA system set up by the local recording studio. As I walked nearer I could clearly hear the 'snap', and I was very impressed with the sound of the band overall.

 

Coincidentally I recalled that conversation from years ago just yesterday, and it reminded me why I like my JBL K2s so much. They do that live sound just so well. Complete with the 'snap'. 

 

Perhaps they're not as refined and polite as some of the higher-end 'reference' level speakers at the same price point on the market, but they're fun and allow me to enjoy music the way 'I' like it.

[joz]

I guessing if you know the frequency of the kick drum you could match a bigger driver with more power behind it to cover that range.

[hugo_wilco]

Have to agree with Marc on this. The only speakers currently made today that accurately replicate drums (not imitate), are JBL Tannoy Prestige and Klipsch speakers. 

 

I once took my snare drum and recorded a few whacks on a CD-R to see what would happen. The JBL and Tannoy were the only ones that did it!

[Satanica]

58 minutes ago, Marc said:

Coincidentally I recalled that conversation from years ago just yesterday, and it reminded me why I like my JBL K2s so much. They do that live sound just so well. Complete with the 'snap'. 

Have you ever listened to them with the ports closed? If so, does that 'snap' remain or disappear?

[Marc]

43 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Have you ever listened to them with the ports closed? If so, does that 'snap' remain or disappear?

No I can't say I have. There's a single rear port that in my room, works best with the speakers less than 1 metre from the rear wall.

[Satanica]

We've had at least one thread about this before.

 

[Neilsy]

I saw a live band (crappy Christmas carols lol) last week and again I was enthralled by the bass kick coming from the drum set sent into a wide, open field environment. The music was at a certain level but the bass was kicking hard without distorting the rest of the sound. I’ve always wanted this type of dynamic sound at home, say when playing music or an explosion goes off in a movie. However turning up the gain or power on the sub amp increases all the background bass and sounds pretty bad.
 
how can I get this type of sound at home?
 
I have 2x dual 15inch opposes home made subs and a inuke6000dsp to work with. I have dsp the response to be pretty flat at the moment.

Hey Troy,

I have exposure and work in live environments of various scale as a front of house audio engineer.

There's a few of elements at play:
- high sensitivity drivers able to achieve high volume very efficiently from a watts/amplification point of view.
- Frequency response and EQ used to achieve that sound.

First you must consider the environment you're in. A music concert and large PAs with line arrays, stacks of subwoofers is there to achieve a certain outcome at a certain volume level, within a certain space or seating capacity.
These systems are not always about achieving a ruler flat bass response to 15hz, for example.
It's not practical or needed. The lowest bass note from a bass guitar is an E @ 42hz.

These PAs or their sub processing typically have rolloffs built in to allow large volume without tiring or over-excursion. It's the SPL vs FR trade off.
So it could be 30hz or up to 40 or even I've seen specs 42 and 45hz rolloffs begin, even if they are minor on a dB per octave scale.

At home, where movies have a lot of sound below 60hz on the LFE track, these frequencies are more important. And we all want 20hz in our rooms at high levels.

These frequencies below 35hz can make a kick drum sound slow.
A kick drum has a lot of 55 - 70hz in particular 62hz.

At high volume those frequencies can hit your chest nicely.
But as an engineer, if I were to try and EQ in a live situation lots of 35hz on a kick drum I will tire out the sub drivers, and most likely end up with a lower overall volume and the kick won't sound tight.

Now in home theatre rare I see lots of 55-70hz peaks in our subwoofers response, right? Always lots of 30,40hz etc.

So, I'd try, if you can have a multiple subwoofers EQ option at home, put in a decent boost around 55hz or so and even try roll of from 25hz but just for your music.

Your sub will be able to achieve notably more volume and will sound tighter and you may be able to achieve a slightly similar sound on kick drums on a blu ray...

This is part of why I upgraded my subs - I went from 89dB sensitivity per 1w to 100dB 1w. And their response is very flat which I like

[Satanica]

48 minutes ago, Neilsy said:

These frequencies below 35hz can make a kick drum sound slow.

That idea was floating around in my head, that full range systems flat to 20Hz may sound "slower" especially with the extra standing waves in room of the lower frequencies.

I notice the JBL's mentioned roll-off pretty sharply bass wise: http://www.keithhaddock.com/assets/_managed/products/files/JBLK2.S9900release.pdf with -6db 48Hz and -10db at 33Hz.

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Satanica

[Gryffles]

@Troyus_ you could just get some Klipsch K Horns. Job done if you have the right room to put them in the corners 

Not overly expensive if you find used ones 

[JD1]

Reluctant to reply to this until Santiniia posted that link. I have Bose 901 and since I have had my equaliser rebuilt and added an amp with a 1000 watt it has changed the sound of the these speakers. They always sounded good but now  have base that is unbelievable. The whole range has improved. Have changed sound source with oppo and lossless music. The lossess improves the bass. Tracks like Time on DSOTM and the bass solo on Fleetwood Mac Chain rattle the couch and the whole room and this is at about quarter volume. I expect most will poo hoo this but they have not heard them set up properly with decent power. They are power hungry. Have listened to quite a few other speakers and always leave me feeling underwhelmed. 

[Nada]

7 hours ago, Troyus_ said:

....I have 2x dual 15inch opposes home made subs and a inuke6000dsp to work with. I have dsp the response to be pretty flat at the moment.

Your subs and available watts seem great. What are the drivers and subs cabinets?

 

To get chest thump I speculate we need need impact at chest wall resonant frequencies via high spl dynamic pulses free from being swamped by room nodes and reflections.  Playing outdoors gives a massive advantage in freedom from resonance and reflections. Whats your room like?

 

You might want to try boosting bass in your DSP significantly in the kick drum range

A kickdrum range

 

 

 

[Al.M]

With the 63hz freq in mind and reference to the human body part freq above, I think that’s where we need to be humping the bass curve more in our speaker bass systems. A lot of people are just chasing low as possible flat extension around 20-30hz or higher if the driver can’t do less but chest thumpiness in my experience happens more around 37 - 50+ hz ish.

 

Its still good to try and have both chest thumpiness plus a reasonably low 25 - 35hz response or at least a feeling of that.

 

When I try to model on paper a DIY box ported design I like to shorten the port less than theoretical flat response, which always sounds boring to me and instead achieve a moderate hump in the response above f3 response that is more likely to get chest thumping response.

 

The above is obviously a rudimentery description.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Al.M

[Snoopy8]

4 hours ago, Neilsy said:

....
These frequencies below 35hz can make a kick drum sound slow.
A kick drum has a lot of 55 - 70hz in particular 62hz.

At high volume those frequencies can hit your chest nicely.
But as an engineer, if I were to try and EQ in a live situation lots of 35hz on a kick drum I will tire out the sub drivers, and most likely end up with a lower overall volume and the kick won't sound tight.

Now in home theatre rare I see lots of 55-70hz peaks in our subwoofers response, right? Always lots of 30,40hz etc.

So, I'd try, if you can have a multiple subwoofers EQ option at home, put in a decent boost around 55hz or so and even try roll of from 25hz but just for your music.
....

Thank you.  I am running integrated dual subs with a DSP in my 2 channel system and tried your suggestion with a target curve that rolled off below 25 Hz and it made a difference compared to a target curve with a flat response below 25 Hz.  The kick drum in Dire Straits Money for Nothing is now better than ever..  

[Mushroom01]

Horn loaded subs is what works for me. I built a Bill Fitzmaurice designed "Table Tuba" (front loaded horn sub) with a Dayton Audio Reference 10"HF driver.  This thing just slams! powerful, fast & tight as a fishes ass! Very high efficiency and only uses a very small amount of watts...Very low distortion too. 

 

I also built a sealed 18" Dayton Audio (Reference HO driver) sub in 4.5cf, powered with DA SPA 1000w amp.......only to be left disappointed when compared to the BF TT sub.

Yes, the sealed 18" dug deeper, but lacked the fast, powerful & tight slam of the BF TT!  I've moved the sealed 18" sub on to a new owner...

 

If you have the room for Horn Loaded subs, then they might be what you're after. They really do hit you in the chest with clean, tight, powerful & exciting bass!

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

19 hours ago, Troyus_ said:

how can I get this type of sound at home?

Do not turn up the subwoofer.  Once it is set at the "correct" level, leave it there.  Instead, apply EQ through your AV processor.   Increase the levels between approximately 50Hz and 200Hz.

 

---

Troyus' post doesn't give us enough info to know there is anything lacking about the speakers .... so it's hard to jump to more/better subwoofers ....  especially when the 'live kick' is at the very upper end of subwoofer frequencies.

 

Troyus' post does tells us that he's doing something wrong (increasing the subwoofer level)...... so I think "start there".

Edited December 10, 2018 by davewantsmoore

[lusk]

I have never heard kick drum bass sound as good as live as l always figured a kick drum at live concerts is direct mic'd and mixed to sound that way. The recording in the studio generally doesn't overemphersize the kick drum so no amount of 15's will get you that same sound as everything else will be louder also.

 

 

[jamiebosco]

What speakers are you running along with the dual 15" subs?

 

I think a lot of that "slam" that is felt through midbass region (maybe around 50-120hz?), some of which is probably right in the crossover region between your subs and speakers, if they aren't time aligned/integrated well and you have a huge gaping null where the they crossover to each other this can take away a LOT of the chest slam/impact from drums. This made a HUGE difference in my room.

IMHO you also need to be listening at least "reasonably loud" to get some of the visceral impact from drums as well.

On that same note, you need speakers (along with enough amp power) to handle the dynamic range in these frequencies. No use having subs capable of 120dB peaks crossing over to speakers that are compressing heavily with 100dB peaks.

Depending on your speakers, you could try crossing over your subs at 100-120hz and let them handle more of this range and see if it helps

Edited December 10, 2018 by jamiebosco

[davewantsmoore]

24 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

I think a lot of that "slam" that is felt through midbass region (maybe around 50-120hz?), some of which is probably right in the crossover region between your subs and speakers, if they aren't time aligned/integrated well and you have a huge gaping null where the they crossover to each other

This ^^^

 

Also, the slam extends right up to 200, 300Hz .... but this frequency region is where small rooms typically have nulls created by the distance from the speaker to the nearest walls, and back to the listener.

 

.... so you can get multiple "holes" through the 3 octaves from 50 to 400 .... which can "disappear" some important frequencies.

 

 

[Neilsy]

That idea was floating around in my head, that full range systems flat to 20Hz may sound "slower" especially with the extra standing waves in room of the lower frequencies.
I notice the JBL's mentioned roll-off pretty sharply bass wise: http://www.keithhaddock.com/assets/_managed/products/files/JBLK2.S9900release.pdf with -6db 48Hz and -10db at 33Hz.
 

See Nexo Geo D:
http://www.gtaust.com/product_details/category/live/product/Nexo_GEO_SUB_Directional_Sub-bass

-6dB @35hz ...

Then check out one of the above responses showing a kick typical FR...
As you see, there is a lot LESS real LF data than people may think. It's the huge 60hz region per the body slam picture above as well....

The free field thing is definitely true. When I've done outdoor PA work room nodes just aren't an issue, you do need more PA but you can get a tightly controlled kick in the chest.

Indoor venues, depending on size, mean you end up having room resonances come into play but also room gain benefits but also the negatives.

E.g. If a room helps you add 6-9dB from bass reflex off a wall, a corner, etc that pressure is not arriving at your ears at the same time as what the sub /cone is producing. Effectively therefore the speakers works less. But in doing so, it's producing less instant SPL output - - which is what is needed for chest thump.

Try this test for fun.... Play a track with a kick drum, turn your system up and then get right in front of your sub. You should experience some chest thump to a degree.
This is due to the body experiencing higher SPL whilst being basically void of room interference.

Now stand up, take steps back, and likely the effect has gone.
In our small homes the room is now colourising this affect.

So.. Room treatment in the bass region is critical to help cease nodes overlapping each other, combing and cancellations.
Then the sub volume can actually come up and you might be able to achieve something, but likely you'll need your system up quite 'loud'

[Satanica]

 

2 hours ago, Neilsy said:

See Nexo Geo
http://www.gtaust.com/product_details/category/live/product/Nexo_GEO_SUB_Directional_Sub-bass

-6dB @35hz ...

Then check out one of the above responses showing a kick typical FR...
As you see, there is a lot LESS real LF data than people may think. It's the huge 60hz region per the body slam picture above as well....

The free field thing is definitely true. When I've done outdoor PA work room nodes just aren't an issue, you do need more PA but you can get a tightly controlled kick in the chest.

Indoor venues, depending on size, mean you end up having room resonances come into play but also room gain benefits but also the negatives.

E.g. If a room helps you add 6-9dB from bass reflex off a wall, a corner, etc that pressure is not arriving at your ears at the same time as what the sub /cone is producing. Effectively therefore the speakers works less. But in doing so, it's producing less instant SPL output - - which is what is needed for chest thump.

Try this test for fun.... Play a track with a kick drum, turn your system up and then get right in front of your sub. You should experience some chest thump to a degree.
This is due to the body experiencing higher SPL whilst being basically void of room interference.

Now stand up, take steps back, and likely the effect has gone.
In our small homes the room is now colourising this affect.

So.. Room treatment in the bass region is critical to help cease nodes overlapping each other, combing and cancellations.
Then the sub volume can actually come up and you might be able to achieve something, but likely you'll need your system up quite 'loud'

Some good information again thanks; some of which I'm aware of.

 

In my case I've found it's a bit damned if I do and damned if I don't.

If I remove my subs(s) out of the corners I end up with large nulls.

As you probably know by corner loading subs it will excite more room modes which will more likely reduce room nulls.

 

I get some chest thump right now, but not live concert level for sure.

What I'm thinking of doing is bringing down the crossover point of my mains from 80Hz to 50-60Hz to overlap the subwoofers.

Then there'll be four more 10 inch drivers working in the "chest thump" region along with my three subwoofers.

[marten]

5 hours ago, Neilsy said:

But as an engineer, if I were to try and EQ in a live situation lots of 35hz on a kick drum I will tire out the sub drivers, and most likely end up with a lower overall volume and the kick won't sound tight. 

.....

Your sub will be able to achieve notably more volume and will sound tighter and you may be able to achieve a slightly similar sound on kick drums on a blu ray...
.....
This is part of why I upgraded my subs - I went from 89dB sensitivity per 1w to 100dB 1w. And their response is very flat which I like
 

 

Catching up on this thread; referring to the above quotes -  very interesting observations, thanks for your detailed post.  

 

Large diameter drivers with high efficiency tend to always impress me in the LF department, but it is a very interesting perspective of yours that there may be this trade-off:  that a driver may impress more around 50Hz if it is not asked to deliver high output in the 30Hz region at the same time.

 

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, marten said:

that a driver may impress more around 50Hz if it is not asked to deliver high output in the 30Hz region at the same time.

Yes... it is important to keep distortion below audible levels, and this can be difficult in the bass.

[Nada]

Do drummers themselves experience chest slap when they pound the kick drum?

 

Is chest slap a creation of sound engineering?

 

Does chest slap only happen at >110dB?

 

Does chest slap = hearing damage?