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buddyev

Beggars Banquet most important album 1968?

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Ad hominem does not suit the discussion.

 

Rob Wood's contribution to the Stones is due for reappraisal. Yes, he is not Mick Taylor nor Brian Jones. But he does care for the music and does keep Mr Jagger in a box, and has pushed himself as a guitarist to the point where he is under-rated and the comparisons to Brian and MT are now not really relevant. These are all good things.

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11 hours ago, Luc said:

 

#The hand of fate is on me now
It pick me up and knock me down
I'm on the run, I'm prison bound
The hand of fate is heavy now
I killed a man, I'm highway bound #

 

Mick n Keeth at their best yeah...

That is tick-box rock music, just going through the outlaw motions in an exhausted genre. Sure it was foot-tappy and entertaining - I quite liked it - but it was show biz. It could have been written by anyone. It could have been written by an algorithm. 

Gimme Shelter, Street Fighting Man, Sympathy for the Devil, on the other hand, are maybe a bit pompous but they’re incredibly inventive and original, and they were a direct response to the social and existential dilemmas facing people. Beggars Banquet absolutely expressed its time. And it was kick ass music. 

Edited by buddyev

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3 minutes ago, caddisgeek said:

Black and Blue has no menace, which is the essence of rock n roll

House trained

Edited by buddyev

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 It would appear, that with much like Ronnie Wood joining the Stones, @Luc joining in on the discussion has killed off this thread

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In the 1950s and '60s (and 70s and 80s for that matter) the idea of human beings playing rock music in their 70s or of a rock band surviving for more than half a century was looked upon as being ludicrous.  And so it was, and still is, and rightly so.  By the late 1970s, the Stones were not a rock band, they were an institution.  Ronnie Wood did much better work for the Faces than anything he ever did for the Stones.  But it cannot be denied that he's had a very good gig with the latter for the past four decades and counting.  So have the rest of them, but they haven't made much music worth listening to for a very long time now.

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On 09/12/2018 at 10:30 PM, caddisgeek said:

Interesting discussion. The existence of "Oh-bla-di-o-bli-dah' (or whatever its called) not only disqualifies the White Album, but is clear evidence on why the Stones are better than the Beatles.

 

I don't think I'm qualified to say what is the most important album for all popular music from 1968, but for the stuff I dig (punk and sleazy rock n roll) it's a toss up between VUs 'White Light/White Heat' and Blue Cheers 'Vincebus Eruptum'. Both are monstrous albums in their own way, the Velvets chewed up and spat out what rock n roll means with stuff like 'Sister Ray' and 'The Gift', Blue Cheer just blew the doors off everything that went before it.

 

Special mention to the Mothers for 'We're Only it it for the Money, coz it's awesome

The Beatles never made a record as bad as Satanic Majesties 

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On 09/12/2018 at 10:38 PM, buddyev said:

The Beatles did some truly awful crap, mcartney couldn’t fart without churning out some vacuous jingle - half rock half English music hall.

White Light is one of my faves. 

McCartney never made a record as bad as Mick did

Twice

And Band On The Run is better than any Stones album after Exile and that includes Some Girls

And Wings were no worse than The Stones albums after Some Girls

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On 10/12/2018 at 9:58 AM, caddisgeek said:

Black and Blue has no menace, which is the essence of rock n roll

Don’t think so

Its just one feature of what makes great rock n roll

Nothing threatening about New York Dolls Television Ramones Let alone Elvis Or Chuck Berry the Beatles Or early Stones

 

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1 hour ago, keyse1 said:

McCartney never made a record as bad as Mick did

Twice

And Band On The Run is better than any Stones album after Exile and that includes Some Girls

And Wings were no worse than The Stones albums after Some Girls

I agree Stones after Some Girls are pretty much a waste of space and I think all the Stones solo albums are pretty crap. Never could come at Band on the Run or post-Beatles McCartney. 

Every dog has his day, and few artists do groundbreaking stuff all their lives. Celebrate the good stuff and ignore the rest. Plenty of great music around. Life’s too short.

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I think when you talk about great rock n roll bands it is really only a decade sometimes less and so to with great records by a single artist and 

Usually within that time frame and only 3 or 4 records 

There are exceptions of course

Great writers of course often remain so well into the last years of their lives

in retrospect my feelings of disappointment in relation to great bands and their fall from my lofty expectations is an age thing

both for them and for me

nowdays I think it is silly to expect rock n roll players to be as great at 40 50 or 60 as they were in their 20’s 

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16 minutes ago, keyse1 said:

I think when you talk about great rock n roll bands it is really only a decade sometimes less and so to with great records by a single artist and 

Usually within that time frame and only 3 or 4 records 

There are exceptions of course

Great writers of course often remain so well into the last years of their lives

in retrospect my feelings of disappointment in relation to great bands and their fall from my lofty expectations is an age thing

both for them and for me

nowdays I think it is silly to expect rock n roll players to be as great at 40 50 or 60 as they were in their 20’s 

Yes, agree with all that.

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43 minutes ago, keyse1 said:

I think when you talk about great rock n roll bands it is really only a decade sometimes less and so to with great records by a single artist and 

Usually within that time frame and only 3 or 4 records 

There are exceptions of course

Great writers of course often remain so well into the last years of their lives

in retrospect my feelings of disappointment in relation to great bands and their fall from my lofty expectations is an age thing

both for them and for me

nowdays I think it is silly to expect rock n roll players to be as great at 40 50 or 60 as they were in their 20’s 

Agree! 

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On 10/12/2018 at 6:33 PM, caddisgeek said:

 It would appear, that with much like Ronnie Wood joining the Stones, @Luc joining in on the discussion has killed off this thread

 

Just goes to show how much you know my lad. Or is that how much you don't know. Moot point obviously.

Do they still teach rhetoric as a subject at Uni these days?

 

Now that the discussion has continued to move along and silly asides(from me obviously) have stopped until at least the Caddis replies, I reckon this discussion about a seminal album by a kickarse band from a period  50 years ago and who it seems most people are in agreement that they haven't really done much else up to and including Some Girls can be played out  against another seminal band that while only in it's 33rd year has kept a relevant sharpness to their ourvre.

 

Have they had such a social impact on popular culture as the Stones? Nuh. But the 60's as a social experiment and indeed movement, was techtonic plate movement wasn't it.

 

Beatles& them headlined the period but perhaps the late 50's guys actually started it.

 

Radiohead my band of 33 years really appeal to me for their continual chameleon-niss and their uncomprimising-ness.(not quite menace obviously but constant menace would be tiring yeah?) They didn't/haven't petered out like the Strolling Bones did decades ago and of course many other bands besides them. Beatles just never managed to get to the ennui stage that the Stones have represented for decades.

 

@buddyev and that brings me back to your OP topic and heading.

 

You are correct and I was being silly as the good doctor of bugs&water suggests although I'll always listen to B+B before the album you champion. Silliness is a very underrated ability and Auberon Waugh had somewhat to say upon the subject.

Sadly I've forgotten what it was but it was a favourite of mine. My bêtes noires seem to includes a lot of others loves.

 

Completely  lost where we are...I think

 

 

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13 hours ago, keyse1 said:

The Beatles never made a record as bad as Satanic Majesties 

Correction, Beatles never made an album as good as Satanic Majesties (except for maybe Help)

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13 hours ago, keyse1 said:

Don’t think so

Its just one feature of what makes great rock n roll

Nothing threatening about New York Dolls Television Ramones Let alone Elvis Or Chuck Berry the Beatles Or early Stones

 

All those artists are full of menace (except for the Beatles)

 

Ask any middle class parent from the 50s if Elvis or Chuck Berry present no menace to society

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12 hours ago, keyse1 said:

I think when you talk about great rock n roll bands it is really only a decade sometimes less and so to with great records by a single artist and 

Usually within that time frame and only 3 or 4 records 

There are exceptions of course

Great writers of course often remain so well into the last years of their lives

in retrospect my feelings of disappointment in relation to great bands and their fall from my lofty expectations is an age thing

both for them and for me

nowdays I think it is silly to expect rock n roll players to be as great at 40 50 or 60 as they were in their 20’s 

Fair comment I reckon

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9 hours ago, caddisgeek said:

All those artists are full of menace (except for the Beatles)

 

Ask any middle class parent from the 50s if Elvis or Chuck Berry present no menace to society

Menace and subversion are the vital energy sources of rock, but the best is more subliminal, attitude and snarl just gets boring. The Beatles had that at times, but their social threat level dropped pretty quickly, probably because they usually had at least a few songs on each album that your mum could sing - as well as some gems. There is a lot of trash music hall filler on their later albums.

 

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Subversion and menace can take many forms, the New York Dolls, playing sleazy rock n roll about cheap sex and cheaper drugs while dressed and even cheaper transexual hookers would have been fairly menacing to polite society 

 

Just to clarify, rock doesn't need menace, but rock and roll does

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Without the roll you just end up with Bon Jovi...

 

 

.....or the Beatles 😛

Edited by caddisgeek

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15 hours ago, caddisgeek said:

Correction, Beatles never made an album as good as Satanic Majesties (except for maybe Help)

I think it ranks alongside Hotel California as the worst record ever made by a famous band

The difference being The Stones created the 4 of the best records ever made immediately after while the Eagles descended into drivel

 

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7 minutes ago, keyse1 said:

I think it ranks alongside Hotel California as the worst record ever made by a famous band

The difference being The Stones created the 4 of the best records ever made immediately after while the Eagles descended into drivel

 

Harsh, but fair. 

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