georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) Naims new $25kaud? Flagship Reference R2R Multibit ND555 network player still using the PCM1704 dac converters. Maybe with this, streamed and dowloaded music, can sound as good to me that my Linn CD12 does? https://www.naimaudio.com/product/nd-555 https://brisbanehifi.com.au/products/naim-nd-555-reference-network-player Taking up from their legendary very sought after CD555 with 555 power base https://www.naimaudio.com/product/cd555 Cheers George Edited December 6, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Fantastico! https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/files/ND 555 White Paper Final_0.pdf There's a lot of mileage getting got, from hooking up "older and simpler" converters to "lots of pre-processing".... and essentially asking the converter to "get out of the way" so the processing can have it's way. Naim are using the (almost) same processors as MiniDSP, et al. ... where as others are using their own more bespoke efforts all the way up to things like the HQplayer and XXhighend efforts. MQA also works on the same kinda of mindset (ie. we know what errors your DAC will make - here's a digital filter for it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Naim are using the (almost) same processors as MiniDSP shame about the d to a converter in it, couldn't get rid of my minidsp 2x4HD quick enough. Cheers George Edited December 6, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Macfarlane Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, georgehifi said: shame about the dac, couldn't get rid of my 2x4HD quick enough. Cheers George George ,were you using the 2x4hd full range? I tried the 2x4HD processing the sound to both the mains speakers and subs and didn't like the compromises however I now feed the signal to the main speakers direct from the pre and used a second set of pre outs to feed the 2x4HD and then the subs. This seems to work very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) I tried it numerous ways, but in the end the cons (mids/highs) out weighed the pro's (bass). Not for me went back the Linn CD12 (4 x PCM1704K) to active analog 24db <150hz down, and passive 18db >150hz up, best I've had. Anything else done in the digital was surgical and sterile, except like I said the bass. Cheers George Edited December 6, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Ozcall said: I now feed the signal to the main speakers direct from the pre and used a second set of pre outs to feed the 2x4HD and then the subs. This seems to work very well. You would have a massive latency problem between subs and mains doing this I'm afraid. Cheers George Edited December 6, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 49 minutes ago, georgehifi said: shame about the dac, couldn't get rid of my 2x4HD quick enough These devices (especially the non-HD model) need to be used very carefully with respect to levels .... They need to be quite high, as there is very little margin before the DAC linearity, and noise floor are exposed. 1 hour ago, georgehifi said: You would have a massive latency problem between subs and mains doing this I'm afraid. No. By default there is no delay. Whether you get any delay or not, depends on what filters are programmed..... so it's up to the end user. Typical filters will not have any problematic delay .... let alone, a "massive problem". OTOH, some filters have huge amounts of inherent delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: By default there is no delay. If he's doing the bass/room/xover management with it and not going through it for the main speakers, there is a latency problem, even Allan and Kim from Deqx will tell you the same, as I told you before end of story. Back on topic please, and not get this thread locked as well. Edited December 6, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Macfarlane Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Crossover and eq for bass is done on the 2x4hd ,my Gales run full range. A latency problem may exist however the overall sound compared to just using the Gales is , on balance , improved to my ears. It all sounds coherent and ,yes, tunefull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 35 minutes ago, georgehifi said: If he's doing the bass/room/xover management with it and not going through it for the main speakers, there is a latency problem Completely wrong. There is no delay by default. The delay you get depends on the filter you program.... and only a specific type of filter (which most people won't use) have a "big delay issue". 36 minutes ago, georgehifi said: I told you before end of story. Yes you did... and you were wrong... and I explained to you that you were wrong at the time. This is not "technicality wrong" ..... This is where you are telling people to expect the exact opposite of what they should expect .... and this is quite basic stuff. Yet, it's "end of story". Niiice. 37 minutes ago, georgehifi said: even Allan and Kim from Deqx will tell you the same You have misunderstood their advice. They are specifically talking about a type of filter (FIR) which has a large amount of inherent delay. People would not use that filter type when they are doing what you are discussing. The other filter types available, do not cause problematic delay. As mentioned, the device has no delay by default, and the delay introduced depends on the filters programmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ozcall said: A latency problem may exist If you are using IIR based filters .... then there is no more delay happening than if you created the same filter as a "passive crossover" (ie. with resistor, capacitor and inductors). If you were using FIR filters (and using them at low frequencies*, in this case), then there will be a delay problem so big, that it would be un-listenable. * The reason being that the delay caused by a FIR filter increases at lower frequencies. Interestingly DEQX have some patent(s) on techniques to improve that issue (really long delays for low frequency FIR filter operation). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted December 6, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 hour ago, georgehifi said: Back on topic please, and not get this thread locked as well Dave got the other thread locked??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Macfarlane Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 14 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: If you are using IIR based filters .... then there is no more delay happening than if you created the same filter as a "passive crossover" (ie. with resistor, capacitor and inductors). If you were using FIR filters (and using them at low frequencies*, in this case), then there will be a delay problem so big, that it would be un-listenable. * The reason being that the delay caused by a FIR filter increases at lower frequencies. Interestingly DEQX have some patent(s) on techniques to improve that issue (really long delays for low frequency FIR filter operation). Not using FIR filters. Thanks for the info Dave. I am considering buying the Dirac upgrade for the 2x4 HD . Would you care to comment on the advisability of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 hour ago, georgehifi said: Back on topic please, and not get this thread locked as well. Just responding to things said by the "opening poster". 22 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: Dave got the other thread locked??? I got a message from Marc about that thread .... and I got the impression that the answer to your question was No, or at least "not directly". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Ozcall said: Not using FIR filters. Thanks for the info Dave. I am considering buying the Dirac upgrade for the 2x4 HD . Would you care to comment on the advisability of this? I will send you a PM. In short.... Dirac Live uses FIR type filters... so unacceptable delay is likely. Edited December 6, 2018 by davewantsmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) Don't send me anything, I know it's that time again in the afternoon for you, go talk to the Deqx designers Allan Langford and Kim Ryrie round the corner from me. I'd believe them before you any day of the week. And please do not take over this thread with barrages of posts that have nothing to do with the title of this thread, and get it into a **** fight and locked like you did with the "New R2R Holo DAC coming the KTE Spring-2" thread Edited December 6, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, georgehifi said: go talk to the Deqx designers Allan Langford and Kim Ryrie round the corner from me. I'd believe them before you any day of the week. You don't have to believe me. You could ask Allan ... or just try it.... or read the most basic text book. The fact that I can hook up the miniDSP 2x4HD right here right now.... do what was discussed and get zero delay ..... means you are wrong. It's nice because the basic theory of everything, says there should be no delay ... and there's not. Neat, huh?! 5 minutes ago, georgehifi said: Don't send me anything I was saying that to Ozcall.... it didn't seem appropriate to address his questions in your thread. 5 minutes ago, georgehifi said: And please do not take over this thread with barrages of posts that have nothing to do with the title of this thread George... I'm just responding to the things you say in this thread. You can't expect to have that any other way. If you don't want people correcting you ... then perhaps consider the accuracy of your posts. For the record.... I believe my comments in the other thread were very! relevant to the title and subject matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: If you don't want people correcting you Your not, go talk to Deqx. My last post till we get back on subject and you ** Edited December 6, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 Haven't been able to find a single listening review yet, if anyone finds one please post it up. Here is something else I came across though. https://www.audiostream.com/content/naim-nd-555-network-player-has-north-american-debut-invite-only-event Cheers George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 https://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2018/06/naim-nd555-new-top-of-range-streamer.htmlhttp://www.hifiplus.com/articles/first-listen-naim-nd5-xs-2-ndx-2-nd-555-streamers/ https://www.stereonet.co.uk/features/preview-naim-audios-nd-555-network-player-roadshow There's a lot more tech reviews up, these are just the listening ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 is there better R2R than PCM1704? I still think it's still the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgehifi Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, mloutfie said: is there better R2R than PCM1704 The PCM1704K ("K" stood for special selected) is "said" to be the last and best R2R made for audio, my Linn CD12 MkIII uses 4 of these K's in it. There are old R2R chips still being made like the Schiit Yaggy uses (Analog devices AD5791) but it wasn't designed for audio but said to be for a US missile guidance system or as it says on the data sheet high end aerospace instrumentation. https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ad5791.pdf Now it up to the discrete R2R designers Holo, Denafrips, Sokris, Total, ect, ect to get up to and maybe beat the PCM1704K, and if the Holo was any indication that I used, there already up there. Cheers George Edited December 7, 2018 by georgehifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firedog Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/11/nos-vs-digital-filtering-dacs-exploring.html 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, firedog said: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/11/nos-vs-digital-filtering-dacs-exploring.html To be clear... the ND-555 uses 16x oversampling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenelectro Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 On 07/12/2018 at 6:06 PM, davewantsmoore said: To be clear... the ND-555 uses 16x oversampling. At 44.1k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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