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Upgrading to Atmos 7.1.4


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Hi all. This Friday I'm having the ceiling speakers installed (4x Stratospherix krix) for a 7.1.4 Atmos setup. I would like advise please on their position in the room (refer to pics). Room is approx 5m long by 4m wide. I'm thinking the front ones can go to the sides of the ceiling acoustic panels which is pretty much the centre of the room and the rear ones in alignment but just behind where the projector is positioned to each side of the room. I did look at the Dolby Spec for 7.1.4 but I don't think I can get exactly what they recommend due to the room. Thoughts and ideas would be appreciated. Thank you.

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how close is the couch to the back wall ? thats probably an important point as hard to see from the pics 

 

the height speakers should line up with the fronts and rears if you a draw a line front to back. can be inside speakers but outside have to be careful to not get close to walls I think.

 

as far as positioning the front heights forward to listening position and rear ones behind and in-between the sides and rear speakers :)

 

something curious I found in all my demoing prior to putting my own system in. is if you sit in your main listening position and without raising your head look up with your eyes you shouldn't be able to see your front heights ... unless raising your eye brows.... then you see them...

 

with the rear heights important you space them out amongst the other speakers on the bed placing in between rather than along the walls...or sitting directly above another speaker. just gives speakers a bit of space to breath I think. 

 

the dolby guide is pretty spot on.

 

with your setup. if you had a sketch showing position it would be easier too grasp to positioning looking top down :) 

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1 hour ago, SimonNo10 said:

I did look at the Dolby Spec for 7.1.4 but I don't think I can get exactly what they recommend due to the room. Thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.

As Al said, the perspective in your photos makes it hard to assess what vertical angles the speakers will be at .... but it looks like you can't get within a country mile.

 

Look at the spec for 7.1.2 .... this is a much better fit.     Having the right speakers in the right locations, and calibrated properly.... is much more important than adding extra speaker which are not.

 

See: Side-view ....  at the very bottom of these pages

 

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.4-overhead-speaker-setup-guide.html

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.2-overhead-speaker-setup-guide.html

Edited by davewantsmoore
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Ok thanks. From looking at the diagram it shows the front Atmos ceiling speakers to be in the centre on the room so if that's the case then I can place mine to the sides of the acoustic panels which will put them in direct alignment with the front speakers. The couch is approx 1m from the back wall (where the blind is at the back), as the wall directly behind the couch is where a fire place used to be so it comes out so that's behind the couch (less than 1m). I've added a circle to the pics to show where I think the ceiling speakers should go but I will talk to the Audio installers on Friday to discuss optimal positioning. I work shift work so I may be late in replying as I'm on Avo's today.

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Edited by SimonNo10
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I suspect that would work. I’d move in as close to panels as can and away from walls 

 

I’d also err on not putting the in ceilings too far ahead ! Because likely the rears in ceilings are going to be not far behind you.

 

as I mentioned the the eye test is a great one I found in placing front heights 

 

Reality is you will find limitations of what have behind the plaster will limit that have ahead if one rafter or behind or to the left or right if rafter depending on which ways go in the ceiling (worth checking with stud finder ) also worth checking what else behind there electrics. Plumbing ventilation (ducts/heating cooling)

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1 hour ago, SimonNo10 said:

I've added a circle to the pics to show where I think the ceiling speakers should go

 

For the width position for the height, place it equal with your front speakers.

 

For the front/back positioning of the height ...... put it within the angle limits .... but put it front/back where it is approximately equal separation between your front speaker and your surround back speakers.      Seeing as you sit close to the rear speaker, this might mean placing your height speakers further forward in the room  (within the angle limit though)

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1 hour ago, betty boop said:

I’d also err on not putting the in ceilings too far ahead ! Because likely the rears in ceilings are going to be not far behind you.

That's actually a reason to put the height speaker further ahead  (within the guidelines, of course).

 

The reasoning is that the height speakers should "split the difference" between the front and back speakers - as much as possible.

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4 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

That's actually a reason to put the height speaker further ahead  (within the guidelines, of course).

 

The reasoning is that the height speakers should "split the difference" between the front and back speakers - as much as possible.

too far ahead.... and you disconnect... this has been my experience with some systems have experienced. There are limits to dispersion and angling can do. it creates a hole between the front heights and rear heights. particularly front heights especially in ceiling its important to not get too far ahead. otherwise stuff right above you doesn't work so well. 

 

if wanting to get really far ahead front heights on front wall firing back is an option. but to get true heights then is tough wiht given how far back the rear heights will be. its a main reason they have also created a middle height now. because some people move heights too far apart (still between guidelines) you get the hole... however with most if stay on the inside of the spec will find mid heights are really not necessary.

 

have to keep in mind heights do add true height. eg with some classic scenes where it re creates right above you. it also places objects in space in the plane between your lower bed and the ceiling. 

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3 hours ago, betty boop said:

too far ahead.... and you disconnect

No doubt  ?

 

Keep in mind I'm talking about 7.1.2   (I advised not to do 7.1.4, as there is no room for that layout)

 

You want the height speaker in x.1.2 to be approximately above the listener ......   but if the rears are much closer than than fronts (which is typical for many people home setup) then the danger is that there is very low separation between the surround, surround-back, and height channels.     Moving the x.x.2 channel a little bit further forward than directly above (within the angle limits) can address this.

 

 

3 hours ago, betty boop said:

it creates a hole between the front heights and rear heights

 

....

 

but to get true heights then is tough wiht given how far back the rear heights will be

Yep.   7.1.4 wont' work at all here.

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We will see. The installers have done dozens of Atmos installs so hopefully it can be done without jeopardising sound quality. 

 

Thanks for the input guys will post back on Friday after it’s been done. 

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If you mean 7.1.4 .... then the most important bit of info is difficult to see.    How far between the LP and the Surround-Back speakers.    It doesn't look like very far .....   it looks like it will mean that the .4 speakers won't be able to be centered over the LP, without being well outside the angle guidelines.

 

 

Lot's of people really want .4 due to the recommendations to do .4 if possible .....  but they shouldn't if they'll be in the wrong place.    I always "worry" that installers are just going to say "Yes Sir!"... rather than walking the idea back.

 

In a well calibrated system ......  .2 with a correct layout, will be better that .4 with a compromised layout.....  in a uncalibrated system all bets are off, and often "more speakers" can give a more immersive/expansive sound that people prefer  (but it's not rendering the sound scene well).

 

Anyways - go well!  :) ?

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1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

What do you mean by "it" ?

 

“It” meaning implementing Atmos . These installers aren’t just in it for the money, it’s a business I’ve dealt with for over 15 years for various HT related things. It’s Audio Trends in Ringwood and I used to live 10mins from them years ago and would visit their store pretty much every weekend. 

 

The system will will be calibrated using an Anthem AVM-60 processor with Electra amps powering the whole system. So do you have an Atmos setup? Al if you could post pics of your room showing the ceiling speaker placement, might give me an idea where they should be placed in my room if possible. 

Edited by SimonNo10
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13 hours ago, SimonNo10 said:

“It” meaning implementing Atmos . These installers aren’t just in it for the money, it’s a business I’ve dealt with for over 15 years for various HT related things. It’s Audio Trends in Ringwood and I used to live 10mins from them years ago and would visit their store pretty much every weekend. 

 

The system will will be calibrated using an Anthem AVM-60 processor with Electra amps powering the whole system. So do you have an Atmos setup? Al if you could post pics of your room showing the ceiling speaker placement, might give me an idea where they should be placed in my room if possible. 

Just check link in my signature ... I documented well what did ...

 

i think its possible in your setup (from what can glean from your photos) even the rear height. Just with carefull setup. 

 

kerping in mind as I said Likely where rafters are and such in the ceiling. behind plaster will limit in any case ...

 

i have have all respect of audio trends, there system and hearing was what drove me to explore 3D audio lot further. And so glad I did, even with challenges of my setting. To point I reckon if I can do it anyone can !!!

 

 

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15 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

If you mean 7.1.4 .... then the most important bit of info is difficult to see.    How far between the LP and the Surround-Back speakers.    It doesn't look like very far .....   it looks like it will mean that the .4 speakers won't be able to be centered over the LP, without being well outside the angle guidelines.

 

 

Lot's of people really want .4 due to the recommendations to do .4 if possible .....  but they shouldn't if they'll be in the wrong place.    I always "worry" that installers are just going to say "Yes Sir!"... rather than walking the idea back.

 

In a well calibrated system ......  .2 with a correct layout, will be better that .4 with a compromised layout.....  in a uncalibrated system all bets are off, and often "more speakers" can give a more immersive/expansive sound that people prefer  (but it's not rendering the sound scene well).

 

Anyways - go well!  :) ?

I don’t believe the centralising is the be all end all. Placement behind can be closer vs placement front. We hear differently sounds in front of us vs sounds behind in any case. Our listening behind our heads is poorer. In any case the system will sort out with measurement/we for distance differential ...angling tweeters helps too but too so as long as don’t skew so far that creates hole so can’t centralise for sounds directly above ... and in these systems sounds directly above is key capability. If system can’t do that because of a hole in sound stage then have a problem. 

 

I suspect he’ll be able to work between Angle recommendations, Audio trends aren’t chumps ...

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20 minutes ago, betty boop said:

I don’t believe the centralising is the be all end all.

It ends up being the difference between a diffuse kinda of "atmospheric" effect (pun not intended), and truly discrete localisable sounds.

 

Anyways...   Dolby are quite specific about it in their guide....   but I appreciate most people can't do much about it.   

 

If (as is typical) the front speakers are a bigger distance than the rears .....  Then you can move the front heights forward....  but to stay to the letter of the guidelines, you need to move the rear height backwards to keep it all centered.... and most people won't have the room to move the back heights further back.

 

The way to kill two-birds-with-one-stone here.... is to sit further forward, but this is impractical for the way most people want to setup a room.

24 minutes ago, betty boop said:

We hear differently sounds in front of us vs sounds behind in any case.

That's true... but it kinda of misses the point with how the discrete sound are rendered.    Objects are rendered using a combination of many speakers, so it could be that both the front and back speakers are participating to render a sound which is actually going to sound like it comes from above, or beside you.

24 minutes ago, betty boop said:

In any case the system will sort out with measurement/we for distance differential

Not really.     The system doesn't know anything about the angles, and where the speakers are located with respect to other speakers, or boundaries .... or the coverage patterns of each speaker.    It can only compensate the distances, and the frequency response.

 

That's why setting up the speaker locations correctly is so important.   The processor can ensure you get the right delay and axial response for each channel ..... but it can't compensate for the location of each speaker vs each other speaker, or each speaker vs surfaces.    Most people have experienced how critical this is for a stereo pair of speakers .... and it's no less complex or important (in fact, more) for multi-channel.

24 minutes ago, betty boop said:

don’t skew so far that creates hole

Definitely... but following the guide will ensure this.

24 minutes ago, betty boop said:

I suspect he’ll be able to work between Angle recommendations, Audio trends aren’t chumps ...

No doubt.    The picture made it hard to see.... there is perhaps more room behind the listener than it looks.:thumb:

 

I guess I am just stuck on what I hear repeated a lot, which is people want .4 either because more is better, or because Dolby recommend it .....  but people haven't been told that .2 will be better if it follows the guidelines more closely than a potential .4 deployment.

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1 minute ago, betty boop said:

@SimonNo10 so friday came and went... how did things go :)

It went smoothly. Audio Trends did the measurements and I was able to go .4 and stayed within the Dolby Specifications. I wanted to wait until I tested and listened to some Atmos 4K discs before posting. Suffice to say 7.1 is now a distant memory and can’t believe just how good Atmos is in completely enveloping the listener. I’ve tested Ready Player 1, A Quiet Place , Bladerunner 2049, MI: Fallout and Superman:The Movie. The last 2 I watched last night in their entirety. I’m completely sold on Atmos and look forward to future releases. No regrets ?

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6 minutes ago, SimonNo10 said:

It went smoothly. Audio Trends did the measurements and I was able to go .4 and stayed within the Dolby Specifications. I wanted to wait until I tested and listened to some Atmos 4K discs before posting. Suffice to say 7.1 is now a distant memory and can’t believe just how good Atmos is in completely enveloping the listener. I’ve tested Ready Player 1, A Quiet Place , Bladerunner 2049, MI: Fallout and Superman:The Movie. The last 2 I watched last night in their entirety. I’m completely sold on Atmos and look forward to future releases. No regrets ?

this is fantastic news. great fitted in and within spec and really pleased with the end result. I had a feeling it would work ! great stuff ! that you are describing as completely enveloping tells me it really is dialled in pretty well. 

 

some great movies have checked out !

 

I dont know if a fan of mad max fury road. but this should be a must the effects at the start are amazing the crows and such the voices :D  same goes with unbroken though. I can imagine re discovering many great movies in your collection ! 

 

I want to check out quiet place myself as all horror movies come up an absolute treat :) MI fallout has also had some great reviews.

 

I'm so pleased to hear this has worked for you as a positive experience :)

 

 

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10 hours ago, betty boop said:

this is fantastic news. great fitted in and within spec and really pleased with the end result. I had a feeling it would work ! great stuff ! that you are describing as completely enveloping tells me it really is dialled in pretty well. 

 

some great movies have checked out !

 

I dont know if a fan of mad max fury road. but this should be a must the effects at the start are amazing the crows and such the voices :D  same goes with unbroken though. I can imagine re discovering many great movies in your collection ! 

 

I want to check out quiet place myself as all horror movies come up an absolute treat :) MI fallout has also had some great reviews.

 

I'm so pleased to hear this has worked for you as a positive experience :)

 

 

Thanks Al. Sorry I forgot I did try Fury Road and it's incredible, that movie is brutal on a system and fully utilises every speaker for a fantastic experience.I tired Fury yesterday and that was amazing and watched the first hour and a half of BR2049 and it's very immersive and I love all the discrete effects that are placed in the ceiling speakers like the advertising billboards in BR and how they move depending on the view on screen. I wish Avengers: Infinity War was mixed as well as these titles. 

 

IMO Ready Player One the car race and Fallout (pretty much everything) for the best Atmos experience, but only watched the first 10mins of Fury Road. The helicopter sequence at the end of Fallout out is a go to demo scene for any Atmos system if you want to show it off. My neighours must hate me now.

Edited by SimonNo10
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