New R2R Holo DAC coming the KTE Spring-2

[sir sanders zingmore]

39 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Have you heard this particular Holo dac ?

 

11 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

 I wait to hopefully find out on day. 

 

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

All that waffle and you haven't even heard it, that says it all.

 

 

[kukynas]

17 hours ago, georgehifi said:

go and have a listen instead of "banging on" about 1 or 2db difference at 20khz or 15khz sine waves

maybe one day you'll use exactly the same approach when judging other electronics

 

anyway I hope the DAC is/will be (at least) at the same level as the predecessor, market with R2R's growing so does competition...

[georgehifi]

As I said, take the LP output filter off a R2R dac and compare it's noise to signal ratio on the scope to Class-D with the LP output filter taken off, then you'll be enlightened.

 

Cheers George 

Edited December 3, 2018 by georgehifi

[davewantsmoore]

11 hours ago, eltech said:

I hear that NOS thickens the upper midrange in an audibly similar way to how second order distortion sounds (if you're familiar with that?).

NOS makes audio sound thicker than it actually is (mostly in the upper midrange and highs) which is caused by aliasing.

Have you ever corrected the amplitude response of a NOS DAC to flat?

 

Those attributes you describe there are the ones people usually report 'disappear' once the difference is removed.

 

11 hours ago, eltech said:

I ought to point out that this NOS characteristic was observed by me on a variety of NOS DACs, but I haven't heard the Holo.

Interesting.     (Yes, a characteristic of the "NOS response", as opposed to a specific one).

 

DACs which have a wide range of very programable filters, are the most flexible for demonstrating this effect (eg soekris)

[davewantsmoore]

10 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

As I said take, the LP output filter off a R2R dac and compare it's noise to signal ratio on the scope to Class-D with the LP output filter taken off, then you'll be enlightened.

No.  It's a completely non-sensical comparison.  It doesn't explain anything useful.

 

If you think it does explain something useful .... then can you be (even just slightly) specific?!?

[georgehifi]

Na, ya still haven't slept it off. Just do it with an open mind.

[georgehifi]

Not for you Dave, since this thread is all about the new Spring 2,  and not what you've derailed it to,  I've asked Tim Conner of Holo, who btw also believes NOS is better than OS, to submit or send me a comparison of the new KTE Spring 2 v the Spring if one has been done yet. And hope it will put this thread back on track. 

 

Cheers George

 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

41 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

Not for you Dave, since this thread is all about the new Spring 2,  and not what you've derailed it to,  I've asked Tim Conner of Holo, who btw also believes NOS is better than OS, to submit or send me a comparison of the new KTE Spring 2 v the Spring if one has been done yet. And hope it will put this thread back on track. 

 

Cheers George

 

 

Of course his comparison will be “just waffle” because you haven’t heard the DAC yourself. 

 

Right?

[georgehifi]

44 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

because you haven’t heard the DAC yourself. 

 

Right?

 

I haven't said anything personally about it because I haven't heard it, except what I did say"if" it sounds better as the makers say than the one it's updated from, it should be a cracker, as I loved the older one especially in NOS mode.

Anyway it should hopefully soon be able to be listened to at one of these 3 Australian retail outlets then the thread derailers can also go and listen, as if they would bother. 

Krispy Audio  |  0411 968 902  |  info [at] krispyaudio.com.au  |  New South Wales

Sublime Hi-Fi  |  08 9205 1149  |  info [at] sublimehifi.com.au  |  Western Australia

Zensati Australia| 0413007440 | contact-us[at]zensatiaustralia.com | New South Wales

 

Australian Importer https://cruxaudio.com.au/

 

Cheers George

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by georgehifi

[PeteD]

Are all of the moderators asleep?  This pis*ing contest should have well and truly been shut down by now.

[davewantsmoore]

1 minute ago, PeteD said:

Are all of the moderators asleep?  This pis*ing contest should have well and truly been shut down by now.

Be very careful what you wish for IMVHO.

 

[georgehifi]

 

Why are there those here that want to derail or shut down a thread about a new product that's coming, that's got Australian importers and retail outlets that will have it, even one or two of which I believe advertise on this site??? really what gives????.

 

Cheers George

 

[PeteD]

3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Be very careful what you wish for IMVHO.

 

 

Whatever that is supposed to mean I think only you would know. All I am wishing for here is for this ridiculous ***-for-tat to be locked asap.

[PeteD]

2 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

 

Why are there those here that want to derail or shut down a thread about a new product that's coming, that's got Australian importers and retail outlets that will have it, even one or two of which I believe advertise on this site??? really what gives????.

 

Cheers George

 

Suggest starting a new thread because this one has become a total shambles.

[georgehifi]

7 minutes ago, PeteD said:

Suggest starting a new thread because this one has become a total shambles.

If Marc or whoever can't fix this, I will if they allow.

 

Cheers George

[davewantsmoore]

3 hours ago, georgehifi said:

Not for you Dave, since this thread is all about the new Spring 2,  and not what you've derailed it to

What do you mean "what I've derailed it to".     It's a perfectly reasonable question given what you've been saying on this site for ages.

 

 

When you look at the difference between the Holo Spring 2 in NOS and OS mode ......    We see is that the big difference is (as is expected) the error in amplitude and phase that extends down into the 20khz, 10hz, 5khz range (for NOS mode).

 

When we go over to the "class-D" thread(s), you are there saying that this exact same type of error (ie. the same error in amplitude and phase that extends down into the 20khz, 10hz, 5khz range) is the crux of what is wrong with the class-D amplifiers.    You say that this is why the switching frequency of class-D amps needs to be much higher - so we can avoid the filters effect reaching the audio band.

 

 

 

These two lines of thinking seem to run completely at odds with each other.   So why is this error OK in a DAC, but bad in a switching amplifier?

 

4 hours ago, georgehifi said:

As I said, take the LP output filter off a R2R dac and compare it's noise to signal ratio on the scope to Class-D with the LP output filter taken off, then you'll be enlightened.

I see "worse" noise in the in the R2R DAC ..... but that's completely beside the point.    As I've said a number of times - I didn't ask anything about the noise.

 

I asked about the thing (amplitude and phase errors) you say is wrong with most class-D amps..... and why you say that same thing, is not a problem here?

 

 

I'm happy to ignore the noise, it's a non-issue....  I'm even happy to avoid the in-band non-linear distortion (most audiophiles would not) - it's not audible, and completely fine for a playback oriented system   (a production workflow where distortion may accumulate, would be another story).

[davewantsmoore]

14 minutes ago, PeteD said:

Whatever that is supposed to mean I think only you would know

 

Person A:   All speakers which use kevlar cones are bad - you must not use them if you want acceptable sound

Person B:   Most people say kevlar cones are not always bad - and you can improve them (without abandoning them)

Person A:   Speaker X just came out, it uses a kevlar cone, it's really really good

Person B:   Didn't you say kevlar cones are all bad?.... How come this speaker is OK?

Person A:   Purple monkey dishwasher

Person B:   That didn't answer the question....  Lot's of people seem to listen to what you say, shouldn't you clarify this?

 

Person C :    I don't like this.

 

<Person B is moderated>

[sir sanders zingmore]

8 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Person A:   All speakers which use kevlar cones are bad - you must not use them if you want acceptable sound

Person B:   Most people say kevlar cones are not always bad - and you can improve them (without abandoning them)

Person A:   Speaker X just came out, it uses a kevlar cone, it's really really good

Person B:   Didn't you say kevlar cones are all bad?.... How come this speaker is OK?

Person A:   Purple monkey dishwasher

Person B:   That didn't answer the question....  Lot's of people seem to listen to what you say, shouldn't you clarify this?

 

Person C :    I don't like this.

 

<Person B is moderated>

Brilliant. 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

32 minutes ago, PeteD said:

Suggest starting a new thread because this one has become a total shambles.

If we don’t allow legitimate questions then the new thread will consist of:

 

Post 1: hey there’s a new Holo dac, it should be really good. 

Post 2 onwards: wow I’m also really looking forward to it, it should be really good. 

 

No one learns anything. 

[PeteD]

3 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

If we don’t allow legitimate questions then the new thread will consist of:

 

Post 1: hey there’s a new Holo dac, it should be really good. 

Post 2 onwards: wow I’m also really looking forward to it, it should be really good. 

 

No one learns anything. 

Yeah sure I get it, but Blind Freddy can see that this particular thread is more about one-upmanship and long ago ceased to be anything like a constructive discussion. Most of it is just a few of the usual suspects repeating themselves and wanting desperately to have the last word.

[davewantsmoore]

6 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

No one learns anything. 

Maybe, this isn't the right thread for "learning".   I can understand how people might prefer that.

 

However, I am just responding to something the OP lead with....

 

OP:   Posts picture of the extra roll off in NOS mode

OP:   "There was no additional roll off in NOS mode"

 

Given the comments on other threads that the roll off is the root of all evil.... it seemed like we should have a "what's all this then?!" moment.

 

 

 

[georgehifi]

10 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Post 1: hey there’s a new Holo dac, it should be really good. 

Post 2 onwards: wow I’m also really looking forward to it, it should be really good. 

If your going to quote me Ziggy get it right, as your way off the mark with this, and I mean way off!!!

[davewantsmoore]

3 minutes ago, PeteD said:

anything like a constructive discussion

I think it would be very constructive to understand the basis for the comments.    Who knows what great information might materialise?!

[acg]

22 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

<Person B is moderated>

 

Gee I hope not. 

 

Person B tends to try to cut through BS when he sees it and we are all the better for it as far as I am concerned.

 

[davewantsmoore]

4 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

If your going to quote me Ziggy get it right, as your way off the mark with this, and I mean way off!!!

You .... can't ... be ... serious .... ?!

 

 

Here's what SSZ said that you said:

15 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

"hey there’s a new Holo dac, it should be really good"

Here is what you actually said:

On 28/11/2018 at 3:35 PM, georgehifi said:

dac from Holo promises to be something

 

 

... He's way off the mark????   Riiiiight.    Wut?