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twofires

Something I've never understood about Klipsch speaker specs

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23 hours ago, twofires said:

Feel free to boot this to the Beginners section if it's too dumb a question... 

 

So, take your typical Klipsch bookshelf speaker. Continuous power handling is somewhere around 100w, and Klipsch say  to get an amp that can supply something roughly equal to that.

 

Thing is, sensitivity is 96dB, so when would you ever need 100w? How far away from your speakers do Klipsch think we are sitting? Or is this some headroom thing to do with the woofer? I heard the speakers linked above in a store recently, and they certainly sounded like they needed more something than the amp was providing.

 

But then, there are all these folk powering Klipsch with teeny valve amps.

 

It confuses me.

 

If we assume that the 96dB figure is for 1w input power @ 1m distance from the speaker .....  and assume that we're listening 4m away .... this shows us a "worst ish case scenario"

 

96dB/w/1m

90dB/w/2m

84dB/w/4m

 

1w = 84dB

2w = 87

4 = 90

8 = 93

16 = 96

32 = 99

64 = 102

 

128 watts  = 105dB @ 4m

 

Seems about right.  The speaker can reach "reference level", which is 105dB per channel in the listening position at around it's full power rating.

 

Most sane people would only want 105dB to be an extremely short peak, ie. the loudest microsecond of a "whack" or a "bang".

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Seems about right.  The speaker can reach "reference level", which is 105dB per channel in the listening position at around it's full power rating.

 

Most sane people would only want 105dB to be an extremely short peak, ie. the loudest microsecond of a "whack" or a "bang".

Well then I gather I don’t fit in the “most sane people” category.....

 

screw the figures and formulae I say, the louder the better....and the more watts the merryer.  Even better if it’s super clear and distortion free!  And if you can feel it thumping your chest and moving the hair on your neck....not that’s a bonus!   😉

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14 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

Well then I gather I don’t fit in the “most sane people” category.....

Yes, I think that's pretty clear....   Heh, Just kidding.

 

I doubt you listen a lot higher than 'reference', unless you have very dynamic content (so the average levels are a lot lower than the peaks).

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15 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Yes, I think that's pretty clear....   Heh, Just kidding.

 

I doubt you listen a lot higher than 'reference', unless you have very dynamic content (so the average levels are a lot lower than the peaks).

Oh Dave,

 

doesnt matter what content, when no one is home, the volume goes up,  it puts a nice smiley happy grin on my face and my toe starts tapping and hands play air guitar......    I can now go louder now without that vibration cause I used those vibration pads from Bunnings....nice!   

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Bear in mind hear, when a manufacturer says 97dB or 99dB 1w 1metre that is often an easy load frequency... Such as 1kHz as a pure sine wave.

A piece of music or sound effect ofcourse has a blend of many frequencies in the spectrum, some which consume many, many times the watts such as low frequencies.

Consider this, for example, (correct me if wrong as I'm going by memory) for every 3dB you are to add to a sound through the likes of equalisation (such as boosting a bass frequency), which the ear perceives roughly twice as loud, it takes 6x the watts. Yes, six times.

So if you had a sound effect in your theatre at 120hz already burning up 40w of power for that explosion or drum hit, whatever, and you are doing any EQ of say 3dB more along that area (like a bass tone shelf) then that 40w can now consume up to 6x that amount.

So this is where in the pro audio world massive amounts of amplification is everything, because we're often tweaking EQ to taste.

But the theory applies at home too.

That's why in cinema most EQ tweaks are very, very minimal and speakers with high efficiency are everything because a cinema chain is looking for low cost amplifier outlay.

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It's interesting - today, I was demoing some integrated amps for my work-in-progress second system. In the room with these amps were the following speakers:

 

Klipsch RP-600M

KEF R3

KEF LS50

SVS Ultra

and a few other things I didn't bother to listen to with the amps in question. 

 

Now, the R3s were the best thing in the room by a considerable margin, and considering the price jump that isn't surprising. But if I had to pick a second place, it'd be the Klipsch. And that's a very different experience to the one I had with the same Klipsch speakers at a different store a week ago.

 

The difference? A week ago I heard them powered by a 50wpc Class D Pioneer, and today I heard them in front of two hefty Class AB units - a Rotel RA-1572, and a Marantz PM8006.

 

Whatever the sensitivity, the Klipsch like a good bit of welly.

 

Side note: the Marantz was the winner, to the extent the third amp on the list (a Yamaha A-S1100) didn't even get a look in.

Edited by twofires

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On 28/11/2018 at 8:35 PM, Neilsy said:

Consider this, for example, (correct me if wrong as I'm going by memory) for every 3dB you are to add to a sound through the likes of equalisation (such as boosting a bass frequency), which the ear perceives roughly twice as loud, it takes 6x the watts. Yes, six times.

:no:

+3dB = 2x watts

On 28/11/2018 at 8:35 PM, Neilsy said:

because a cinema chain is looking for low cost amplifier outlay.

 

 

Usually...  it is more so that without very high efficiency .... even if you used the most powerful amplifiers (cost be damned) that the speaker can handle .... you will never make enough SPL at large distance.

 

 

 

Example.    A hifi speaker of 90dB/w @ 1m .... is only 66dB/w @ 16 meters

 

.... If you want to make 105dB at the listener (cinema reference level) .... then the hifi speaker would in theory need 16,000 (!!!) watts to do that @ 16m     If the hifi speaker could take 1,000 watts (it probably can't) .... it would only make 94dB @ 16m  Pathetic.

 

A high efficiency speaker might be 100dB/w @ 1m .... and this is 76dB/w @ 16m.    It will make the 105dB @ 16 meters, with about 700 watts.

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Klipsch can either be very good or very bad. There's only one amp difference between the two.

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I think Klipsch's recommended amp rating of 100w makes more sense when you consider their actual sensitivity may be something closer to 91 - 93dB, instead of the 96dB listed in their spec sheets. Being 3-5dB off may not sound like much (no pun intended) but this would be the difference between thinking you're cruising along using 20-30w of amp power, when in reality you're using 60-100w.

NtMYt5I.png

jrZ8Cg6.png

 

I've seen it mentioned several times on AVS, Audioholics and diyAudio about Klipsch's sensitivity ratings being inflated by a few dB, though this is usually in regard to their Synergy and Reference product lines and not the Heritage,Cinema or Pro lines.

I have often read about "Hoffman's Iron Laws" and some of Klipsch's product specs definitely seem to be (at the very least) bending these laws - small to medium sized bookshelf speakers with a single 6.5" woofer, metal dome tweeter, 45hz extension and 96dB sensitivity? seems almost too good to be true?

 

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2128818-can-klipsch-speaker-actually-meet-s-specs-no-can-t.html

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/110418-klipsch-efficiency.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2012897-klipsch-rp-280f-tower-speakers-official-avs-forum-review-2.html#post34544729

 

 

Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam2434 View Post
This is only one example of how a Klipsch floorstander sensitivity compares to some other brands, but in group below, the Klipsch has the highest sensitivity and is 3.4 dB higher than the average (2.83 volts/1 meter, anechoic). Brent Butterworth included these measurements in his hometheaterreview.com reviews of each of the speakers below.
Klipsch RP-280FA (92.5)

 

 

92.5dB/2.83v isn't unusual with a dual woofer speaker, especially when the actual impedance is 6 ohms, which is what the measurements indicate. 1 watt into 6 ohms is 2.44v, not 2.83v. What's more pertinent is that Klipsch claims 98dB/2.83v, and that's just plain old fashioned

Bill Fitzmaurice

 

Quote

If you consider anything Klipsch be sure to find the *real* sensitivity on them, not their "specs". Klipsch is known for inflating their sensitivity specification by 5-6dB on most/all speakers. One example.

klipsch spec---98dB
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_714RP2...c&awug=9015446

real sensitivity---92.5dB
http://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch...viewed/?page=2

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

 

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@jamiebosco So basically the reason the specs and recs don't add up is because they literally don't add up? That...  was not the answer I was expecting. Of all I've read it makes the most sense, though.

 

Question is, why lie? It's not like 91dB is bad. 

Edited by twofires

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No it isn't, it's certainly well above average. But 96dB is very high sensitivity (for a bookshelf speaker) and maybe that's an easy selling point for them

 

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Klipsch and many other manufactures overstate their sensitivity measurements, its a numbers game, it all depends on how and what they measure, the bigger the number the better they look.. must be a male thing :)

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1 hour ago, afa said:

must be a male thing :)

Blowing their own horn, so to speak.

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I have a 7.1 Klipsch reference setup comprising of the original rf5 mains, rc7 centre and rs7 surrounds. I feed the mains 200watts per channel and the rest of the system 150 watts per channel via Rotel 10 series power amps. Although these speakers a quite efficient they love some power. The room is 7x4.5m. Two channel audio is excellent but movies with this setup is where they shine. Ive had these setup since 2007 and the speakers are still very capable.

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I'm thinking about pairing my CXA60 with the Klipsch RP-600M speakers discussed in this thread.

I'm only just starting out down the path to build a nice audio ecosystem, and I must admit most of the discussion on the optimum amp power for these speakers is a little over my head, so I'd definitely appreciate any advice as to whether this could make a reasonable pairing. I'll also call in to a local hifi retailer to see if I can hear it for myself.

I've provided what I think are the relevant power specs for the amp below. Thanks!
 

POWER OUTPUT

60W RMS into 8 Ohms, 90W RMS into 4 Ohms
 

MAX POWER CONSUMPTION

600W

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22 minutes ago, flat_eric said:

I'm thinking about pairing my CXA60 with the Klipsch RP-600M speakers discussed in this thread.

I'm only just starting out down the path to build a nice audio ecosystem, and I must admit most of the discussion on the optimum amp power for these speakers is a little over my head, so I'd definitely appreciate any advice as to whether this could make a reasonable pairing. I'll also call in to a local hifi retailer to see if I can hear it for myself.

I've provided what I think are the relevant power specs for the amp below. Thanks!
 

POWER OUTPUT

60W RMS into 8 Ohms, 90W RMS into 4 Ohms
 

MAX POWER CONSUMPTION

600W

According to the stereophile measurements which I would trust much more than marketing blurb from the manufacturer, their efficiency is far far lower than the ad states.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-reference-premiere-rp-600m-loudspeaker-measurements

"The Klipsch's specified sensitivity is an extraordinarily high 96dB/2.83V/m. My estimate was much lower, at 89.6dB(B)/2.83V/m"

Additionally whilst they state they're 8ohm speakers, the stereophile measurements show a lot of the time they're even below 4ohm.

That would make them much harder to drive than is stated in their blurb. I don't know much about the amp you're considering apart from what I read on their website, but one that only produces 50% more power into 4 ohms than it does 8 ohms will probably drive them satisfactorily with its 90 watts but probably not ideal to drive them and won't be extremely loud (which is what you might believe if they really were that efficient.)

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