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6 hours ago, Peter-C said:


Here’s the impedance curve for the Maggie 1.7s, nominally 4ohm but dip below 2ohm in the hf’s
IMG_1526.jpg

Thanks but it's the 0.7 I was looking for. 

Edited by March Audio

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7 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

I’m sorry Allen,

 

let me disagree with you on room acoustics...

 

Every HIFI show where the 1.7 have shown up,  regardless of room size and amplification, the 1.7 regardless of which  versions it was,  Bill has always made them sound impressive and a highlight where you don’t have to spend mega dollars to achieve high quality sound that agrees...  one of the bonus of Magnaplanars....   Bills had then in a room the size of a bathroom and the 1.7 still shine, he’s had them in the huge conference room and it’s no different.

 

FWIW  hotel rooms are no different to any other rooms, in most cases can be just as good if not better if you are using a room with hard surface .  Most Hotel rooms are carpeted with cloth curtains.

you can take whatever measurement you want and show how bad the resonance were,  but if it sounds bad here it’s gonna sound bad anywhere, or there is something inherently technically wrong with the gear on the day.

 

 

 

You are welcome to disagree but when I get back I will show you the evidence from the acoustic measurements which proves you to be incorrect. Carpet and curtain will do absolutely nothing to dampen low frequency room modes.  With respect I suggest you need to go and do a bit of reading around the subject. This is all basic physics/acoustics and nothing to do with the kit. 

 

The boom in our room was evident just by listening to our voices before we even hooked up the speakers.  When we did it was blatant.  Only then did I get out the microphone.  The problem was heard and only then did we measure to find out the detail. 

 

Due to the small size of the room it places the room modes at very audible frequencies.  The major one was a circa 15dB peak at 91Hz.  With the other resonances the RT60 was over 2 seconds at lower frequencies.  That's massive and easily audible. It produced a drone with certain tracks that had a lot of content that was near those frequencies. Yes of course any room of those dimensions will have the similar problems, but construction type does make a difference to how much the low frequency waves are reflected/absorbed. 

 

You also have not taken into account that the radiation of Maggies is fundamentally different and being dipole they will not interact with the room in the same way as box speakers. There is a reason why speakers such as the kii, Dutch 8c and bo dalek thing exist. 

Edited by March Audio

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50 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

You are welcome to disagree but when I get back I will show you the evidence from the acoustic measurements which proves you to be incorrect. Carpet and curtain will do absolutely nothing to dampen low frequency room modes. exist. 

Now you are arguing for augment sake.

its very obvious that if you think that carpets and curtains don’t make a difference then you have never measured the same room with hard surface and then measured the same room that’s fully furnish with carpet and curtains..    Walk into any room that’s just been built and then furnish it with carpet and curtains and I doubt you’ll be doing measurements,  it’s obviously clear and no DBT necessary to even note the difference yet measure it! 

57 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

The boom in our room was evident just by listening to our voices before we even hooked up the speakers.  When we did it was blatant.  Only then did I get out the microphone.  The problem was heard and only then did we measure to find out the detail. 

 

Due to the small size of the room it places the room modes at very audible frequencies.  The major one was a circa 15dB peak at 91Hz.  With the other resonances the RT60 was over 2 seconds at lower frequencies.  That's massive and easily audible. It produced a drone with certain tracks that had a lot of content that was near those frequencies. Yes of course any room of those dimensions will have the similar problems. . 

You have missed the point that some of these hotels rooms will be no different in size compared to what people will use,   Not everyone has a nice 6x8m room to use,   Even I can only manage 4x7m. They are no different large or small because a typical hotel room and most rooms in houses have parallel walls floors and ceilings....

 

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

. Yes of course any room of those dimensions will have the similar problems. 

 

Really!

 

1 hour ago, March Audio said:

 

You also have not taken into account that the radiation of Maggies is fundamentally different and being dipole they will not interact with the room in the same way as box speakers. There is a reason why speakers such as the kii, Dutch 8c and bo dalek thing exist. 

I am very aware of the radiation of Maggie’s thank you,   I currently own a 1.7.     I didn’t go the show this year due to work commitments but every other show I’ve been too Bill usually place them as far away from the back wall because  they need the space as a dipole to breathe.

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6 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

Let’s also be clear that the the 1.7 and 0.7 are totally different beast,   They are not the same, very different in size where the 0.7 a 2 way and the 1.7 are a 3 way and either have different X0 components and arrangements.

Sure, my point is they're still hard to drive, best served by solid amplification, even if they're different designs entirely.

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4 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Sure, my point is they're still hard to drive, best served by solid amplification, even if they're different designs entirely.

I heard the 0.7 driven by nc400...   impressive!   I can live with this combo very easily.     Any voice is sublime,  the  micro details are all there,  the soundstage was very wide and you can pinpoint every instrument and voices.....   All this for around $3k max! 

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Just now, Addicted to music said:

I heard the 0.7 driven by nc400...   impressive!   I can live with this combo very easily.     Any voice is sublime,  the  micro details are all there,  the soundstage was very wide and you can pinpoint every instrument and voices.....   All this for around $3k max! 

Sounds good. I'm a fan of the NC400s, I have a pair myself.

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1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

Now you are arguing for augment sake.

its very obvious that if you think that carpets and curtains don’t make a difference then you have never measured the same room with hard surface and then measured the same room that’s fully furnish with carpet and curtains..    Walk into any room that’s just been built and then furnish it with carpet and curtains and I doubt you’ll be doing measurements,  it’s obviously clear and no DBT necessary to even note the difference yet measure it! 

You have missed the point that some of these hotels rooms will be no different in size compared to what people will use,   Not everyone has a nice 6x8m room to use,   Even I can only manage 4x7m. They are no different large or small because a typical hotel room and most rooms in houses have parallel walls floors and ceilings....

 

Really!

 

I am very aware of the radiation of Maggie’s thank you,   I currently own a 1.7.     I didn’t go the show this year due to work commitments but every other show I’ve been too Bill usually place them as far away from the back wall because  they need the space as a dipole to breathe.

 

I'm really trying my hardest to be respectful but you are betraying your lack of understanding of the subject here.  You really need to go and do some reading around the subject before you start arguing about it.   Honestly this is very basic acoustics and extremely well documented on the Web.  Try some searches. 

 

Carpets and curtains will make a difference to the absorption of higher frequencies.  They will not do anything for low frequencies such as fundamental room modes.  The wavelengths are too long.  

 

With your comments above you are referring to the effects of reflections at higher frequencies above the rooms transition point, above schroeder where soft furnishings will make a difference. 

 

My comments were explicitly clear that I was referring to low frequency room resonances or modes. The room was very small.  This places the modes at higher and very audible frequencies.  Room construction type does indeed make a difference to how much the low frequency wave is reflected and absorbed, so actually different rooms can and will behave differently. 

 

The Maggies are different because they are dipole.  Have a think about what that means for a low frequency wave in a room. 

Edited by March Audio

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56 minutes ago, March Audio said:

 

I'm really trying my hardest to be respectful but you are betraying your lack of understanding of the subject here.  You really need to go and do some reading around the subject before you start arguing about it.   Honestly this is very basic acoustics and extremely well documented on the Web.  Try some searches. 

 

Carpets and curtains will make a difference to the absorption of higher frequencies.  They will not do anything for low frequencies such as fundamental room modes.  The wavelengths are too long.  

 

With your comments above you are referring to the effects of reflections at higher frequencies above the rooms transition point, above schroeder where soft furnishings will make a difference. 

 

My comments were explicitly clear that I was referring to low frequency room resonances or modes. The room was very small.  This places the modes at higher and very audible frequencies.  Room construction type does indeed make a difference to how much the low frequency wave is reflected and absorbed, so actually different rooms can and will behave differently. 

 

The Maggies are different because they are dipole.  Have a think about what that means for a low frequency wave in a room. 

And if you were any wiser, you can use low freq resonance to your advantage...     and that’s all I have to comment!   

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1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

Sounds good. I'm a fan of the NC400s, I have a pair myself.

I have no idea why you would go down this path.....   originally you went to @andyr place and made the comment that “they are not for you”

i can remember in the other thread that many including @andyr were pointing you to the 20.7!     Go down that path as you wish,  but I find it hard to justify the cost of the 20.7 to the 1.7  after doing a direct comparison to the 3.7...     The 0.7 and 1.7 are superbly great value in entering the Maggie products....   Affordable too in my world!  None will give you wanting low end, and if you need it then you are going to have to add a sub!  

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1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

I have no idea why you would go down this path.....   originally you went to @andyr place and made the comment that “they are not for you”

i can remember in the other thread that many including @andyr were pointing you to the 20.7!     Go down that path as you wish,  but I find it hard to justify the cost of the 20.7 to the 1.7  after doing a direct comparison to the 3.7...     The 0.7 and 1.7 are superbly great value in entering the Maggie products....   Affordable too in my world!  None will give you wanting low end, and if you need it then you are going to have to add a sub!  

Huh? What are you implying now? The NC400s are my backup amps, that's all. I'm not after any Maggies. If I had a spare room where I could put a second system in it would have Maggies, but that's it.

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2 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

And if you were any wiser, you can use low freq resonance to your advantage...     and that’s all I have to comment!   

 To what advantage?

Edited by March Audio

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4 hours ago, Ittaku said:

Sounds good. I'm a fan of the NC400s, I have a pair myself.

If it wasn't for the promise of something better just around the corner, I'd be looking to buy some NC400 modules myself.  I hate fast moving tech :)  

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17 hours ago, pass the bass said:

What I found surprising is how good the Magnepans sounded sitting close to the side walls (they were at least 1 metre from the rear wall and only cemtimetres from the side walls). I thought that panel speakers in general need to be far from the walls to sound their best. Also, I thought they didn't really need subwoofers; there was enough bass in that room.

 

Maggies need space behind them - so a minimum of 1.5m is best (2m better!  :)).  But if they are close to the side wall - with the tweeters in (be they foil-on-mylar like the 1.7s or true-ribbon like the 3.7s/20.7s/30.7s) - you get bass reinforcement from the side walls.  But the ribbons, anyway, do sound better the further they're away from the side walls.

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, andyr said:

Maggies need space behind them - so a minimum of 1.5m is best (2m better!  :)).  But if they are close to the side wall - with the tweeters in (be they foil-on-mylar like the 1.7s or true-ribbon like the 3.7s/20.7s/30.7s) - you get bass reinforcement from the side walls.  But the ribbons, anyway, do sound better the further they're away from the side walls.

Bill ran them with the tweeters on the outside at the show. I asked him about it and he said it was because it was a large seating arrangement he was trying to cover better.

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Yes, having the tweeters on the outside of the panel does give a wider sweet spot.  It would seem that that was Bill's #1 priority - taking precedence over the issue of allowing open space around the tweeters, for better 'air' in the HFs (an invalid concept, right!  :winky: ).

 

As you know, my ribbons are on the outside - even though, in my small room, we sit nearfield.  The ability to angle my mid/tweeter panels more than the bass panels (because they're in separate frames) - so that they cross in front of my face - is an advantage, in my room.

 

Andy

 

Edited by andyr

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Some photos of the stands that Bill was using at the HiFi show just gone.

It is my understanding speaking to Bill today that these are Australian made.

It was previously mentioned about the auto-formers that he was using. He indicated that he used

both varieties.

IMG_3931.JPG

IMG_3930.JPG

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On 22/10/2019 at 10:31 PM, Muon N' said:

Herb tried out a few different amps with them in this stereophile review.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-5

That is interesting because Bill is now the Australian agent for Rogue Audio and one of the tested amps - Rogue Audio Spinx - tested very well here.

Bill does not come to the forums much and had no idea about the above link when I mentioned it to him.

He has gone down this path as he is a big fan of Class D combined with a tube pre stage.

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On 22/10/2019 at 10:31 PM, Muon N' said:

Herb tried out a few different amps with them in this stereophile review.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-5

 

And he played Bill Laswell's "Dreams of Freedom"!  :thumb:  A great album - I have it on vinyl.  :)

 

Andy

 

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On 24/10/2019 at 6:17 PM, ghost4man said:

 

Some photos of the stands that Bill was using at the HiFi show just gone.

It is my understanding speaking to Bill today that these are Australian made.

It was previously mentioned about the auto-formers that he was using. He indicated that he used

both varieties.

 

IMG_3931.JPG

 

 

Thanks fo the pics, Ozzie - great looking stands!  :thumb:  Stable ... and tiltable.  :)

 

Yes, Bill told me that he commissioned someone to make them.

 

Andy

 

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Guest Muon N'
2 hours ago, andyr said:

 

And he played Bill Laswell's "Dreams of Freedom"!  :thumb:  A great album - I have it on vinyl.  :)

 

Andy

 

Bob Marley?

 

Is all I can find googling it :D

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34 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

Bob Marley?

 

Is all I can find googling it :D

 

Yes, Ian - ambient dubs of Bob Marley songs.  :thumb:  Sensational, IMO.

 

Andy

 

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3 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Thanks fo the pics, Ozzie - great looking stands!  :thumb:  Stable ... and tiltable.  :)

 

Yes, Bill told me that he commissioned someone to make them.

 

Andy

 

Yes they are tiltable. 

It isn't readily noticeable unless you go looking for it but its clear that Bill has listened because the build lends itself to that

very feature. On top of that its actually very pleasing aesthetically pleasing.

 

That Bob Marely dub is superb. The music covers the entire spectrum.

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This is what I'm talking about, fantastic reinforced structure. In fact, this all aluminium frame is exactly what my good mate is using on his 30.7's in Spore, driven by the Relentless monoblocks. They are rock solid and don't flinch one bit, bass is super tight with whiplash energy, something to really experience, especially with the Relentless. There's no comparison.

 

If these are custom made for special orders in Aus, that's great news, in fact this should have been the all time best of show, at the hi-fi show, or at least I would think so... 

 

Apart from the Maggies, were there any other good ones? 

 

Not sure about the 350 grand Kharma setup at the lounge... Anyway, I guess some people would see that as value.

 

Looking forward to the next high-end show, hopefully we'll see some new SOTA gear.

Cheers for now, RJ

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3 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

If these are custom made for special orders in Aus, that's great news, in fact this should have been the all time best of show, at the hi-fi show, or at least I would think so... 

 

Apart from the Maggies, were there any other good ones?

Bill had done an excellent job with the Maggies at the show getting a remarkable sound out of the diminutive 1.7s. The ATCs were really singing at the show too with Doshi electronics and the most musical sound to me on the day.

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