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Magnepan Owners & Discussion Thread

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1 hour ago, Wimbo said:

Hole in the middle effect Andy. If they are too far apart they may not integrate properly.

 

Sure, W - but I would suggest the 'hole in the middle' comes from having them too far apart, compared to your distance to the plane of the speakers (so shallower than an equilateral triangle), irrespective of whether the panels are toed-in ... or not?

 

Andy

 

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On 24/11/2018 at 2:07 PM, Gary janezic said:

I would buy a pair and have 2 different systems.

If I could have two different systems they would be one panel system and one horn system. Heaven !

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On 24/11/2018 at 8:28 PM, Gary janezic said:

I am to thinking 15 feet could be abit to narrow only if I had 2 more feet I would be very happy.anyway it will have to do.i am gonna listen to Peters 20,7s soon and decide from there which of the 2 models to get. Thanks Gary 

My room is 15ft wide and the 20.7’s sound great. It does however require tweaking with position but that is the same with any speaker. 

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3 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Sure, W - but I would suggest the 'hole in the middle' comes from having them too far apart, compared to your distance to the plane of the speakers (so shallower than an equilateral triangle), irrespective of whether the panels are toed-in ... or not?

 

Andy

 

Toe in can fix or focus the middle soundstage more accurately. It can never fix speakers that are too far apart, I agree. I should of tuned my answer relative to all wide walls, not just one that is 25' long.

Also, my experience is only with 3A's and 2.5R's. Not multi panels as what you, @djb and @ghost4man have.

Edited by Wimbo

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Guest Gary janezic
On 25/11/2018 at 4:25 AM, Big Dog RJ said:

Maggie's are ribbon transducers, Klipsch are horns and some are horn loaded. Two different planets! 

 

With Maggie's it's all about stable current capabilimy, not so much watts. Power doesn't mean anything. I've tried numerous high powered amps that ran out of juice, simply because they cannot deliver stable current drive across the impedence curves of panels, such as ribbons and stats.

 

The MC452 is an excellent amplifier and will drive any of the Magneplanars well. I've personally heard the very same combination, MC452 driving a pair of MG20's, and it was quite marvelous indeed!

 

What you will get out of ribbon transducers are as follows:

1. Greater speed

2. Articulation in the bass, speed and agility in bass lines. 

3. Transparency and inner detail 

4. Extended highs, the tweeter ribbons are capable of exceeding 40kHz.

5. Added depth and dimensional spacing in the soundstage. This will probably be the most profound attribute, where the height, weight and scale is of "the absolute Sound".

 

These are the main 5 attributes you will receive with the Maggie's. Remember that after a while (few years, typically 3-5) the tweeter ribbon elements requires replacing simply because the speed and agility at which the ribbon moves is so great, at one point in time it will give way. 

 

You can easily purchase tweeter ribbon kits available from your Magnepan dealer or you can order through Magnepan direct.

I do know of a few people who have had there ribbons last for quite a while before replacing, and others who have replaced tweeters within a couple years. I had many iterations of Maggie's, starting with:

MGIIIa, MG3.3/r, MG3.5/r, MG3.6/r & the MG20. This was just before we acquired the Apogee Diva's. These Maggie's were all driven with CJ monoblocks, Premier 8A with the ART preamp. The other brand of monoblocks I used were the big Manley 350 reference series, all tube designed and we're superb driving ribbons. All of the Maggie's tweeters were replaced around the same time, other than the MG3.6 & MG20, because they were sold off before any replacement was required. 

It also depends on how loud you listen and extended periods, and how hard you drive the speakers. If you're careful enough, you can get many years of trouble free operation with the tweeters.

 

It's truly amazing to observe the tweeter ribbon element moving in free space according to the audio signal, that speed is marvelous!

 

Maggie's are also superb in musicality and the higher up the model, the greater the resolution. They also offer the greatest value for money that you can have from a panel type speaker. They can very easily compete with the best out there and once you're hooked, I sincerely don't think you would retain the Klipsch... Just my 50cts. 

Hope that helps a bit.

Cheers, RJ 

Hi rj thanks a lot for info.i had no idea that ribbon tweeters need replacement. I am looking for a different sound and it seems to me magnapans are the way to go.i want them more for classical and other light music keeping klipsch for pop and rock music.regards gary

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15 minutes ago, Gary janezic said:

i had no idea that ribbon tweeters need replacement

Only if they break.  I have never had to replace one.  Haven't even blown the fuse.

 

[Only guessing but...

when an amp clips there is lot of high frequency energy produced which may or may not be enough to damage the ribbon.  Magnepans are ridiculously insensitive (83dB/watt/meter at best) so amps need to be turned up to produce a reasonable listening level.  Also low impedance (<4ohm), so amps need to be capable on both counts.  If a problem is experienced, it may be with the amplifier over-exerting itself rather than the flimsy ribbon.  Maybe, perhaps.  Until it happens I wouldn't worry about it.]

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1 hour ago, Gary janezic said:

Hi rj thanks a lot for info.i had no idea that ribbon tweeters need replacement. I am looking for a different sound and it seems to me magnapans are the way to go.i want them more for classical and other light music keeping klipsch for pop and rock music.regards gary

Good thinking mate.

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1 hour ago, Gary janezic said:

Hi rj thanks a lot for info.i had no idea that ribbon tweeters need replacement. I am looking for a different sound and it seems to me magnapans are the way to go.i want them more for classical and other light music keeping klipsch for pop and rock music.regards gary

Interesting you say that. Having had panels and now having horns, I would say that if “classical” includes “orchestral” then you’ll enjoy it more on the horns (imho you need big dynamics and full-range for orchestral). 

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Guest Gary janezic

Thanks everybody for the feedback.yes I am a lover of horn speakers. I agree with big orchestra music horns are better. The magnapans would be for light classical music like string quartets.i am not after magnapans because I want to change my current horn speakers,rather I want them for a change in sound.regarding the ribbon tweeters I would not worry about them failing until it happens and with care I believe there should be no problems.i listen to all types of music and wanna be able to switch between speakers for a different experience.heres a image of my Horn speakers cheers to all audiophiles.EF7DE61E-59CE-4EBB-A9A3-F958C6F00DED.thumb.png.62664d31f2e27f07df2b7026ce90643a.pngspeakers 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gary janezic said:

.......my Horn speakers ...

Wow. That's creative. What's the centre box?

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Just to add my perspective for you. 

 

Magnepan speakers offer ridiculous sonic quality when compared to other high end gear where you can pay ten times as much as you would for Maggie's. 

 

Maggie's ribbons do not necessarily need to be replaced on a regular level. Sorry, but that is just a myth. Where problems do occur is in the amplification or rather the lack of quality of power being delivered which can result in damage to the ribbons. 

 

Magnepan speakers are extremely sensitive to placement. Room is a big key in this. 

 

There is the perception that Maggie's are weak in the bottom end. I would argue that this is not completely true and I would also so that the overwhelming majority of audiophiles here regardless of speaker type incorporate a dedicated sub woofer into their system. 

 

Maggie's need power. More specifically they need current. Loads of it. And then some. Valve amps can work with them but I think SS is the preferred option. You will find that some Maggie owners will throw a valve pre to get that warm valve sound. To me that's another way of saying they want their sound coloured.

 

I personally prefer gear that leads to sound stage and imaging. 

 

Maggie's are built cheap. Ridiculously cheap. This means that they benefit from a rebuild with decent hardwood and metal stands to give them support. This applies to the XO setup as well. 

 

Maggie's have this beautiful air to the sound signature which I think is unbeatable. Once you fall for them it's difficult to go back. 

 

Just my view. 

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Guest Gary janezic

The centre box is electrovoice mth1 this gives me slam and dynamic punch that not even 2 pairs of lascals can do .they are buy themselves 108 dB efficiency.there not much buy themselves but in between 2 pairs of lasclas they work incredibley good.that magnapans offer a different sound to what I have now and considering there excellent value is what got me interested in them. I am used to a wall of sound and thinking the 30.7s will do that but sound completely different.thanks for all feedback.gary

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37 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Maggie's have this beautiful air to the sound signature which I think is unbeatable. Once you fall for them it's difficult to go back. 

 

Just my view. 

 

Spot on, Ozzie.  As they say in the classics - once you go flat ... you never go back:)

 

38 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Maggie's ribbons do not necessarily need to be replaced on a regular level. Sorry, but that is just a myth.

 

I think you mean "regular basis"?

 

I'm not sure I agree with you there - but it depends on how often and how loud you play them.  The aluminium foil does get stressed ... and will fail eventually.  And if you listen loud the "eventually" will happen sooner than if you listen quietly.  And my good friend "Peter Gunn" told me that he blew a ribbon when the panel fell off his workbench onto the floor!  :(

 

38 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Where problems do occur is in the amplification or rather the lack of quality of power being delivered which can result in damage to the ribbons.

 

Absolutely!  :thumb:

 

38 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Maggie's need power. More specifically they need current. Loads of it. And then some.

 

Indeed!  :thumb:

 

38 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Valve amps can work with them but I think SS is the preferred option.

 

I'm of this view too ... but big tube amps like VTL 'Wotans' can make them sound pretty amazing! :)

 

38 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Maggie's are built cheap. Ridiculously cheap. This means that they benefit from a rebuild with decent hardwood and metal stands to give them support. This applies to the XO setup as well.

 

Amen, bro!  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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31 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Spot on, Ozzie.  As they say in the classics - once you go flat ... you never go back:)

 

 

I think you mean "regular basis"?

 

I'm not sure I agree with you there - but it depends on how often and how loud you play them.  The aluminium foil does get stressed ... and will fail eventually.  And if you listen loud the "eventually" will happen sooner than if you listen quietly.  And my good friend "Peter Gunn" told me that he blew a ribbon when the panel fell off his workbench onto the floor!  :(

 

 

Absolutely!  :thumb:

 

 

Indeed!  :thumb:

 

 

I'm of this view too ... but big tube amps like VTL 'Wotans' can make them sound pretty amazing! :)

 

 

Amen, bro!  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

Andy thank you for the correction - it was meant to be "basis".

I think the bigger concern with the ribbons is moving the panels around which can result in unnecessary exposure to air pressure.

Speaking to Bill Mclean about this a while ago, he was of the view that a solid amplifier should mitigate the risk for failure. There is no doubt that the ribbon will get stressed however. I am of the view that very little comes close to the ribbon tweeter for the money that you pay. It is absolutely lightning fast.

I have heard a lot of different speakers over the years and honestly nothing comes close to maggies with that wall of sound and just that "air". Its this very point I think that you have to listen to yourself to appreciate. And when it does work it is something special. I dont think I have heard another speaker yet that touches them for the voice elements. 

Thinking more about it, what I have noticed as well is that you can get the "lesser" models to work fantastically well in smaller rooms that rival the bigger panels providing you can get that amplifier right. The amp in any maggie setup is critical I feel.

To overcome this some of us have resorted to using weaker gear but in an active setup which works just as good if not better. I am inclined to think that active is the way to go. Yes it does require more amplifiers but the benefits outweigh the cost. 

 

Its hard to go back to those damn coffins I tell you.

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I've used Maggie's since 1986, several versions thereafter and each model up the chain was an improvement over the other. As time went by, nearly every model we had, except for the MG3.6 & 20, required tweeter replacements. So this is not a "myth" it is reality mate!

 

I must mention the following:

1. MGIIIa-  had the mid-range fuses blown on both panels when we took them as a trade in for Quads, purchased used. The previous owner was so deaf that he had no clue that both mid-range panels weren't working, Ha! 

 

2. MG3.3/r - had a blown tweeter element during the demo! I bought the pair as is, and did the tweeter replacements myself, with the help of our techie. 

 

3. MG3.5/r- used for a good period of two years, until one side tweeter blew, and the other started sagging... Hence, needed replacing anyway. Once they were replaced, all worked perfectly.

 

4. MG3.6- no issues, as this model was brand new and sold off to customer within the first week they arrived, after demoing with top of the line CJ amplification (premier 8A monoblocks-300w mono's, plus the ART preamp). 

 

5. MG20- again no issues, and sold off to the same customer who previously bought the MG3.6

 

So as you can clearly see, we've owned five different versions of Maggie's out of which three models required tweeter replacements. The tweeter replacements is NOT a big deal. It's quite normal for the technology and materials used to create the true ribbon line source. 

 

The true ribbon is only 1/10 of a human hair, virtually lighter than the air in front of it! At the speed and agility the ribbon element moves, as someone with first hand experience already commented, it will stress out at one point and has to give way. This is not a "quasi ribbon " where now Magnepan has incorporated into all their newer models. Therefore, the older panels all had the more natural ribbon tech, and a true ribbon for all tweeters, hence this is the price we pay for this madness. 

 

Now, Maggie's have evolved a long way, better materials, better crossovers, better internal parts, plus quasi ribbons in all their latest offerings. The tweeters still remain the same but are built slightly more rigid compared to the much older versions.

 

By the way I have also visited the factory in Minnesota, White Bear Lake. I've met with the design team and have been in touch with Anthony and Margaret Roush, who's daughter now works for the company, that's one full generation of employee's!

 

If it is a myth and not to be taken seriously, then you tell me why does Magnepan address the tweeter replacement procedure in all their user manuals?

Onto to you Mr. Ghost4man...

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Another point I must add, all Maggie's with the true ribbon tweeter elements are VERY fragile, such that they can break easily even during transport or when unpacking. So if you're not experienced with how to handle a large ribbon panel like Magneplanars, my best advice is to move onto Analysis Audio ribbons, they're far much stronger than any of the Maggie's but they do cost a lot. 

 

After our CJ dealership and the most amount of CJ gear we sold was actually though Maggie demo's, we moved onto Apogee's. Used the big Diva's full range for many years, until 2015, pops was getting too old to maintain them and I had already migrated to Aus.

 

Just on an important note, both the design tech chief and Marge did mention to me that the majority of my issues I had with the tweeter ribbons was also partly due to being located in the tropics! Hence, this is another reason why the Quads failed miserably, the only ribbon panels that last a while at least, we're the Apogee's.

 

Anyway, the Maggie's were one ribbon panel type speaker, being a true dipole, they were quite marvelous at what they could do with the right amplification.

Cheers to Maggie's! RJ  

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20 hours ago, Big Dog RJ said:

I've used Maggie's since 1986, several versions thereafter and each model up the chain was an improvement over the other. As time went by, nearly every model we had, except for the MG3.6 & 20, required tweeter replacements. So this is not a "myth" it is reality mate!

 

I must mention the following:

1. MGIIIa-  had the mid-range fuses blown on both panels when we took them as a trade in for Quads, purchased used. The previous owner was so deaf that he had no clue that both mid-range panels weren't working, Ha! 

 

2. MG3.3/r - had a blown tweeter element during the demo! I bought the pair as is, and did the tweeter replacements myself, with the help of our techie. 

 

3. MG3.5/r- used for a good period of two years, until one side tweeter blew, and the other started sagging... Hence, needed replacing anyway. Once they were replaced, all worked perfectly.

 

4. MG3.6- no issues, as this model was brand new and sold off to customer within the first week they arrived, after demoing with top of the line CJ amplification (premier 8A monoblocks-300w mono's, plus the ART preamp). 

 

5. MG20- again no issues, and sold off to the same customer who previously bought the MG3.6

 

So as you can clearly see, we've owned five different versions of Maggie's out of which three models required tweeter replacements. The tweeter replacements is NOT a big deal. It's quite normal for the technology and materials used to create the true ribbon line source. 

 

The true ribbon is only 1/10 of a human hair, virtually lighter than the air in front of it! At the speed and agility the ribbon element moves, as someone with first hand experience already commented, it will stress out at one point and has to give way. This is not a "quasi ribbon " where now Magnepan has incorporated into all their newer models. Therefore, the older panels all had the more natural ribbon tech, and a true ribbon for all tweeters, hence this is the price we pay for this madness. 

 

Now, Maggie's have evolved a long way, better materials, better crossovers, better internal parts, plus quasi ribbons in all their latest offerings. The tweeters still remain the same but are built slightly more rigid compared to the much older versions.

 

By the way I have also visited the factory in Minnesota, White Bear Lake. I've met with the design team and have been in touch with Anthony and Margaret Roush, who's daughter now works for the company, that's one full generation of employee's!

 

If it is a myth and not to be taken seriously, then you tell me why does Magnepan address the tweeter replacement procedure in all their user manuals?

Onto to you Mr. Ghost4man...

@Big Dog RJ

I am not suggesting that a ribbon tweeter will never have to be replaced BUT there will always be a reason for the replacement.

These ribbons are not like a car which requires an oil change every 20, 000Km. To use this analogy further, a lot of the older cars required a timing chain change at the recommended 80,000 Km. Are you suggesting that ribbons have a life span requiring change at a predetermined time.

My friend that is not the case. There are a lot of factors that would dictate when a ribbon would need changing and I would suggest this would almost always occur when you have a break. Replacing after 2 years or what you sight as being structural sag would not necessarily invoke a change. 

I have a pair of IIIAs that have precisely that presentation and still work beautifully.

I am not quite sure what you are saying re quasi ribbon. Just to clear up some confusion for the audience quasi ribbon has been used for some time now in the bass and mid range drivers - only. There are 2 versions to the true ribbon. My IIIA's have version 1 as do many of the iterations at the time which were 3 way. The difference between a version 1 TR and version 2 TR is the latest version is very slightly longer and narrower.

QR was not used in the original models. It was wire. You should be aware of that given you owned the IIIA's which I also have.

 

You should also be aware that Jim Winey had an association with 3M which goes a long way to explaining the rubbish glue that was used back then in the original models. If you told me you had a TR tweeter that had never been replaced over a 20 year period then I would believe that over a maggie enthusiast stating that they had a pair of 30 year old maggies that had never been rewired. 

 

Ask @andyr and I am sure he would agree with me on this.

I appreciate you are adopting the precautionary principle in warning the OP of the potentials but I think in this instance it is not IMO warranted. Couple a pair of maggies with a good Sanders Magtech, ME, Pass Labs and they will not sink under the pressure. And I'm talking about the amps here  :)

 

By the way your traitorous actions in selling your maggies in favour of the Apogee's is duly noted and  recorded :)

Come back home :)

 

 


 

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22 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Spot on, Ozzie.  As they say in the classics - once you go flat ... [you never] some people don’t go back, while others find even greater happiness with boxes :)

Sorry Andy, Small grammatical edit needed.

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1 hour ago, buddyev said:

Sorry Andy, Small grammatical edit needed.

 

You posted, Russ:

 

"Spot on, Ozzie.  As they say in the classics - once you go flat ... [you never] some people don’t go back, while others find even greater happiness with boxes :) "

 

I'm sure you're aware that the original quote (that I was bastardising) was ... "once you go black, you never go back"!  :lol:

 

Having never tried 'black (sugar)', I can't vouch for that endorsement.  All I know is ... whilst my 2nd system has cone speakers - my main system will remain Maggies.  In fact, as @djbcan attest, I have embarked upon an amp-enhancement project ... to make them sound better.  :)

 

Andy

 

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1 minute ago, andyr said:

 

You posted, Russ:

 

"Spot on, Ozzie.  As they say in the classics - once you go flat ... [you never] some people don’t go back, while others find even greater happiness with boxes :) "

 

I'm sure you're aware that the original quote (that I was bastardising) was ... "once you go black, you never go back"!  :lol:

 

Having never tried 'black (sugar)', I can't vouch for that endorsement.  All I know is ... whilst my 2nd system has cone speakers - my main system will remain Maggies.  In fact, as @djbcan attest, I have embarked upon an amp-enhancement project ... to make them sound better.  :)

 

Andy

 

doesn't your main system have cones as well though …….. :)

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

doesn't your main system have cones as well though …….. :)

 

Well, yes it does, Trev (as you well know!).  :)

 

But that's the low-end reinforcement from a pair of 15" subs.  Many big-Maggie owners extend their panels' response with cone subs.

 

The core of the system is still dem panels!  :lol:

 

Andy

 

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2 hours ago, ghost4man said:

@Big Dog RJ

I am not suggesting that a ribbon tweeter will never have to be replaced BUT there will always be a reason for the replacement.

These ribbons are not like a car which requires an oil change every 20, 000Km. To use this analogy further, a lot of the older cars required a timing chain change at the recommended 80,000 Km. Are you suggesting that ribbons have a life span requiring change at a predetermined time.

My friend that is not the case. There are a lot of factors that would dictate when a ribbon would need changing and I would suggest this would almost always occur when you have a break. Replacing after 2 years or what you sight as being structural sag would not necessarily invoke a change. 

I have a pair of IIIAs that have precisely that presentation and still work beautifully.

I am not quite sure what you are saying re quasi ribbon. Just to clear up some confusion for the audience quasi ribbon has been used for some time now in the bass and mid range drivers - only. There are 2 versions to the true ribbon. My IIIA's have version 1 as do many of the iterations at the time which were 3 way. The difference between a version 1 TR and version 2 TR is the latest version is very slightly longer and narrower.

QR was not used in the original models. It was wire. You should be aware of that given you owned the IIIA's which I also have.

 

You should also be aware that Jim Winey had an association with 3M which goes a long way to explaining the rubbish glue that was used back then in the original models. If you told me you had a TR tweeter that had never been replaced over a 20 year period then I would believe that over a maggie enthusiast stating that they had a pair of 30 year old maggies that had never been rewired. 

 

Ask @andyr and I am sure he would agree with me on this.

I appreciate you are adopting the precautionary principle in warning the OP of the potentials but I think in this instance it is not IMO warranted. Couple a pair of maggies with a good Sanders Magtech, ME, Pass Labs and they will not sink under the pressure. And I'm talking about the amps here  :)

 

By the way your traitorous actions in selling your maggies in favour of the Apogee's is duly noted and  recorded :)

Come back home :)

 

Yeah mate definitely agree on your points and noted. Like I said some have used ribbons for a long time no issues, others 2-3 years or little more that's about all the little tweeter could go... 

Best advise use them as carefully as possible and be very careful during the unpacking procedure.

Another thing to note is all Maggie's come with the protective Steel strip that supports the ribbon during shipment, so yes they are very fragile. RJ 

 

2 hours ago, ghost4man said:


 

 

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26 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Well, yes it does, Trev (as you well know!).  :)

 

But that's the low-end reinforcement from a pair of 15" subs.  Many big-Maggie owners extend their panels' response with cone subs.

 

The core of the system is still dem panels!  :lol:

 

Andy

 

sure, but you could equally argue that the foundation of the system is dem cones 

 

Seriously though, panels are something pretty special. And if you properly integrate subs with them, it takes them to a new level (emphasis on properly, like you have done or like Roger Sanders does)

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Another thing worth noting, the Apogee's were only ordered through our close dealer friends in Spore, hence the Siva's were my dads favorite panel types. We had several at the time, including Martin Logan's, mostly the older hybrids, and only one pair of monoliths were sold. The monoliths are still going to this day, with one major repair on both drivers, other than that all good. 

I've switched completely over to Martin Logan's now after living here in melb since 2004. I'm now using the CLXArt, they were my dream speakers and managed to close the deal only in Sept. Driven with a full line up of CJ amplification, preamp & monoblocks, this is by far the best I've ever had the opportunity of owning. 

Previous panels used, Maggie's, Quads, ML and Infinity Betas, all great in their own regard, but nothing close to the CLX's.

Cheers mate, and enjoy that music! 

RJ 

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On 26/11/2018 at 2:31 PM, Gary janezic said:

Hi rj thanks a lot for info.i had no idea that ribbon tweeters need replacement. I am looking for a different sound and it seems to me magnapans are the way to go.i want them more for classical and other light music keeping klipsch for pop and rock music.regards gary

Hey Gary, those Klipsch look really stunning. I don't think you'd ever require a different sound, especially when driven with the mighty MC452. But I guess you'll find the dipole affect an interesting twist... 

Don't worry about the tweeter replacements, this is a very common thing with Maggie's and can be done in 30mins if you're sober... 

 

The Apogee Divas we had were a real pain in the butt to maintain in tropics, hence Maggie's it was only a tweeter issue, easy fix. 

I now use Martin Logan's full range CLX's. Very different and extremely high quality build compared to what I've owned in the past. 

Cheers mate, and hope your venture into ribbons is a good journey. 

All the best, RJ 

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