Big Dog RJ Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Ghostie, Agree on your points, no argument there. However, what I'm saying is through experience that others have had with their Maggies as well as myself, being a former Maggie dealer and owner; The majority of panels we sold, nearly every customer did some sort of upgrade / improvement on them, as they were speakers they were going to keep and not sell after a few years... My good mate in Spore feels that the 20 series were their top line, with various iterations improved in each model, and now we have the 20.7. That's about as far as Magnepan have taken it. Then as you rightly pointed out they embarked on a project to re-introduced a multi-panel design, and developed the 30.7 taking certain aspects from the previous Tympani design. Again that's about all they've reached. Further improvements could always be done with any speaker, not just Maggies... 1. The point I'm trying to get across is that for this particular price range, which is far above the Maggie norm, they could have at least incorporated one of those improvements but they didn't. Instead only incremental improvements and frugal parts/quality upgrades. This to me is not a major step in design, and perhaps they were wanting to keep prices low as possible, fair enough. 2. Therefore, why not introduce these improvements in a smaller version first, such as the 20.7 or 20.8 and then embark on an all out project, such as a 30.7/8 which will be a radical design, having a very high level of sonic mastering and performance, which it's not. 3. Obviously just looking at the size of the panels and comparing it to other Maggie models, this would certainly out-class them all. However, the question is by what margin and have Magnepan really utilized the best possible materials to take this design to an untouchable level? That question I already know by what I've heard. And to add to that, after listening to these on the Relentless amps, I can confirm they are well capable of doing remarkable things. I only hoped to gain more after it took so long to develop... When I lived in the US for many years, I got to know a lot of high-end dealers, plus visited as many facilities as possible over the years, so I've been in touch directly with these people and have learned a great deal from their ongoing discussions at private gatherings, not on some planar asylum. Places I've visited, VTL, Manley Lab's, Krell, ML, Infinity, Magnepan, Genesis Advanced Technologies, Paradigm / Energy, AvantGarde, Gryphon, Nola Reference, YG Acoustics, Harbeth, B&W, Pass Labs, Carver Inc, even Bose, and my favourite of all, Conrad Johnson. Also a host of others I can't even remember... And Recently in Spore I've visited the dealerships for McIntosh, Magnepan, Alsyvox and ML, again all of whom I know personally over the decades... I'm certainly no expert and not stating here that anything is the "ultimate" or the "best" unlike others... What I'm saying is I certainly do know when something sounds right, and by that I'm referring to the following: Coherency, speed, definition, transparency, "natural" tonality, and most of all "well balanced", not too much of anything. Other areas, such as imaging, soundstage depth and so on are quite apparent in virtually any high quality system, it's getting the balance and synergy right in order to reproduce the recording flawlessly or as closely as possible. Only a handful of systems can achieve this level by their owners carefully placing together a coherent system. In whatever shape size or form, when it sounds right you can tell straight away! Cheers to all, and enjoy your panels, afterall panels are still far ahead in terms of overall realism and less colorations. Have a good one, RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Magnapan has done an excellent job with all models in my opinion.the 30.7s being there flagship is in a league of its own, and compares or surpasses speakers many many times there price, what more could you ask from a company. Cheers to magnapan. Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Big Dog RJ said: Ghostie, Agree on your points, no argument there. However, what I'm saying is through experience that others have had with their Maggies as well as myself, being a former Maggie dealer and owner; The majority of panels we sold, nearly every customer did some sort of upgrade / improvement on them, as they were speakers they were going to keep and not sell after a few years... My good mate in Spore feels that the 20 series were their top line, with various iterations improved in each model, and now we have the 20.7. That's about as far as Magnepan have taken it. Then as you rightly pointed out they embarked on a project to re-introduced a multi-panel design, and developed the 30.7 taking certain aspects from the previous Tympani design. Again that's about all they've reached. Further improvements could always be done with any speaker, not just Maggies... 1. The point I'm trying to get across is that for this particular price range, which is far above the Maggie norm, they could have at least incorporated one of those improvements but they didn't. Instead only incremental improvements and frugal parts/quality upgrades. This to me is not a major step in design, and perhaps they were wanting to keep prices low as possible, fair enough. 2. Therefore, why not introduce these improvements in a smaller version first, such as the 20.7 or 20.8 and then embark on an all out project, such as a 30.7/8 which will be a radical design, having a very high level of sonic mastering and performance, which it's not. 3. Obviously just looking at the size of the panels and comparing it to other Maggie models, this would certainly out-class them all. However, the question is by what margin and have Magnepan really utilized the best possible materials to take this design to an untouchable level? That question I already know by what I've heard. And to add to that, after listening to these on the Relentless amps, I can confirm they are well capable of doing remarkable things. I only hoped to gain more after it took so long to develop... When I lived in the US for many years, I got to know a lot of high-end dealers, plus visited as many facilities as possible over the years, so I've been in touch directly with these people and have learned a great deal from their ongoing discussions at private gatherings, not on some planar asylum. Places I've visited, VTL, Manley Lab's, Krell, ML, Infinity, Magnepan, Genesis Advanced Technologies, Paradigm / Energy, AvantGarde, Gryphon, Nola Reference, YG Acoustics, Harbeth, B&W, Pass Labs, Carver Inc, even Bose, and my favourite of all, Conrad Johnson. Also a host of others I can't even remember... And Recently in Spore I've visited the dealerships for McIntosh, Magnepan, Alsyvox and ML, again all of whom I know personally over the decades... I'm certainly no expert and not stating here that anything is the "ultimate" or the "best" unlike others... What I'm saying is I certainly do know when something sounds right, and by that I'm referring to the following: Coherency, speed, definition, transparency, "natural" tonality, and most of all "well balanced", not too much of anything. Other areas, such as imaging, soundstage depth and so on are quite apparent in virtually any high quality system, it's getting the balance and synergy right in order to reproduce the recording flawlessly or as closely as possible. Only a handful of systems can achieve this level by their owners carefully placing together a coherent system. In whatever shape size or form, when it sounds right you can tell straight away! Cheers to all, and enjoy your panels, afterall panels are still far ahead in terms of overall realism and less colorations. Have a good one, RJ Big Dog, My feeling as to why they introduced the 30.7s is due to the fact that the 20.7s was as far as they could take the system to a high level. Adding the DWM's raised it up a notch which as any maggie owner knows is NOT necessary when you can meet the demands of the bottom end with a pair of subs. In terms of the DWMs its my view that you could get a lot more out of them with the smaller maggie speakers as they would cover up to 200Hz. This becomes less of a requirement when dealing with multi panels as they already have that covered with the additional panels. As far as parts is concerned again I am of the view that magnepan do things on the cheap out of commercial necessity. Thats not to say that this is the case with the 20.7s or 30.7s with regards to quality capacitors or inductors as I am sure they do meet a very good level BUT I do think that you can achieving amazing things with maggies by replacing the framework and certainly massive improvements are to be had with the use of quality stands. By the way I think you can do much cheaper and just as good as the purpose built mye stands. Additionally, going active is something that the overwhelming majority of maggie owners do NOT do for a number of reasons. Have you heard a maggie system that uses an active XO in lieu of the passive RJ? If not I would advise doing so. Of course this requires a good DSP and a lot of work in terms of leveling the speakers and addressing what order slopes you want to incorporate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 What has martin Logan reached, I don’t think nothin much , there old statement speakers from the 90s are better than the clx or any speakers in there current lineup. In my opinion martin Logan have taken a step back as well trying to keep there prices down. At least magnapans have a 30.7 which is the best speakers they have ever made.gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, ghost4man said: Big Dog, My feeling as to why they introduced the 30.7s is due to the fact that the 20.7s was as far as they could take the system to a high level. Adding the DWM's raised it up a notch which as any maggie owner knows is NOT necessary when you can meet the demands of the bottom end with a pair of subs. In terms of the DWMs its my view that you could get a lot more out of them with the smaller maggie speakers as they would cover up to 200Hz. This becomes less of a requirement when dealing with multi panels as they already have that covered with the additional panels. As far as parts is concerned again I am of the view that magnepan do things on the cheap out of commercial necessity. Thats not to say that this is the case with the 20.7s or 30.7s with regards to quality capacitors or inductors as I am sure they do meet a very good level BUT I do think that you can achieving amazing things with maggies by replacing the framework and certainly massive improvements are to be had with the use of quality stands. By the way I think you can do much cheaper and just as good as the purpose built mye stands. Additionally, going active is something that the overwhelming majority of maggie owners do NOT do for a number of reasons. Have you heard a maggie system that uses an active XO in lieu of the passive RJ? If not I would advise doing so. Of course this requires a good DSP and a lot of work in terms of leveling the speakers and addressing what order slopes you want to incorporate. I’m very happy with the build quality of my 30.7s. I don’t think there cheaply build at all. They use solid wood, nice grills and quality parts. Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 A lot of speaker companies take a step Back at times and bring out a new product claiming its the best they made ever, when it’s really not as good as the model it just replaced. Be aware. Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog RJ Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Music monster said: What has martin Logan reached, I don’t think nothin much , there old statement speakers from the 90s are better than the clx or any speakers in there current lineup. In my opinion martin Logan have taken a step back as well trying to keep there prices down. At least magnapans have a 30.7 which is the best speakers they have ever made.gary the music monster Clueless for someone who spends nearly an entire day listening to music, reading hi-fi mags and trusting reviewers... I suggest hop onto the ML site and see for yourself what the improvements are mate. The Statements are exactly what I'm talking about, where the ML team went all out and redesigned the Statements from their previous version. BTW have you ever heard a ML Statement system? A few "minor" upgrades / improvements from ML along the way: X-Stat design Carbon Alloys Micro-perf stators Blade technology frames High grade Core transformers, along with High grade Caps & wiring. DSP engines Votjko digital filters and engineering Vacuum bonded panels between the stator and mylar. Heavily internally braced bass driver cabinets Carbon alloy woofers Rigid bolts and reinforced structures to minimise "flapping" of panels. ARC - Anthem room correction systems and the list goes on... What has ML done? Not much really... Mmm Looks like a tiny bit, I guess Edited July 23, 2019 by Big Dog RJ Many reasons! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Big Dog RJ said: Clueless for someone who spends nearly an entire day listening to music, reading hi-fi mags and trusting reviewers... I suggest hop onto the ML site and see for yourself what the improvements are mate. The Statements are exactly what I'm talking about, where the ML team went all out and redesigned the Statements from their previous version. BTW have you ever heard a ML Statement system? A few "minor" upgrades / improvements from ML along the way: X-Stat design Carbon Alloys Micro-perf stators Blade technology frames High grade ACore transformers, along with High grade Caps & wiring. DSP engines Votjko digital filters and engineering Vacuum bonded panels with the stator and mylar. Heavily internally braced bass driver cabinets Carbon alloy woofers ARC - Anthem room correction systems and the list goes on... What has ML done? Not much really... Mmm Looks like a tiny bit, I guess The statements are regarded the best speakers martin Logan have ever made. Anything after that has taken a step backwards.they should have speakers now that are better than the 90s statement but imho they don’t. I haven’t herd them but know a friend who has and he agrees with me martin Logan haven’t gone forward at all not like magnapan has . Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog RJ Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 BTW G-man this is not about ML. Once again a slight derailment... If you want to compare ML with Maggies I'm happy to do so anytime anywhere, there's no chance and what's the point? Comparing and bragging who has the biggest, and the greatest... Is this what SN represents mate? In which case, sorry I'm not in. Just stick with the topic of Maggie's and enjoy what you have mate. RJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Big Dog RJ said: Clueless for someone who spends nearly an entire day listening to music, reading hi-fi mags and trusting reviewers... I suggest hop onto the ML site and see for yourself what the improvements are mate. The Statements are exactly what I'm talking about, where the ML team went all out and redesigned the Statements from their previous version. BTW have you ever heard a ML Statement system? A few "minor" upgrades / improvements from ML along the way: X-Stat design Carbon Alloys Micro-perf stators Blade technology frames High grade Core transformers, along with High grade Caps & wiring. DSP engines Votjko digital filters and engineering Vacuum bonded panels between the stator and mylar. Heavily internally braced bass driver cabinets Carbon alloy woofers Rigid bolts and reinforced structures to minimise "flapping" of panels. ARC - Anthem room correction systems and the list goes on... What has ML done? Not much really... Mmm Looks like a tiny bit, I guess RJ That is very interesting BUT - and yes I know there is always a but - you need to clarify this by providing a reference point. Quoting the above is meaningless without it. What were the speakers like before? The physical differences between the 20.7 and 30.7 is glaringly obvious RJ. And then when one explores even further and notices that the bass panels have magnets on both sides one realises how much of an upgrade this is. Having vacuum bonded panels that have presumably been soaked with Nepalese yak semen might sound really good on the spec sheet but do they give better sound reproduction. I cant answer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I never brag I have the best, heck I don’t even have anything good to start of with, I just don’t like people putting down magnapans. Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog RJ Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just for fun, I was actually thinking: if mags did put out a new version just now and called it 30.7i and you were freaking out, as is clearly the case... Head out to Byron Bay and use the bass panels as surf boards! I know it'll work! Sadly the CLX's didn't work, simply because of the micro-perf stators, far too many holes in them... Maybe I'll pass this message onto ML and suggest a slight mod. Cheers, matey RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Big Dog RJ said: Just for fun, I was actually thinking: if mags did put out a new version just now and called it 30.7i and you were freaking out, as is clearly the case... Head out to Byron Bay and use the bass panels as surf boards! I know it'll work! Sadly the CLX's didn't work, simply because of the micro-perf stators, far too many holes in them... Maybe I'll pass this message onto ML and suggest a slight mod. Cheers, matey RJ Good idea Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Big Dog RJ said: BTW G-man this is not about ML. Once again a slight derailment... If you want to compare ML with Maggies I'm happy to do so anytime anywhere, there's no chance and what's the point? Comparing and bragging who has the biggest, and the greatest... Is this what SN represents mate? In which case, sorry I'm not in. Just stick with the topic of Maggie's and enjoy what you have mate. RJ Couldn't agree more. I really don't enjoy one upmanship or system superiority. I don't care what people love and use but I detest evangelising one brand to the detriment of any other. Being a fan is very different to being a fanatic. of course many people will have brands they really like ( and I am no exception ) but when this impedes upon reality it really is time to dial back the rhetoric. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, rantan said: Couldn't agree more. I really don't enjoy one upmanship or system superiority. I don't care what people love and use but I detest evangelising one brand to the detriment of any other. Being a fan is very different to being a fanatic. of course many people will have brands they really like ( and I am no exception ) but when this impedes upon reality it really is time to dial back the rhetoric. I disagree bigdog doesn’t even like Maggie’s but he’s always on this thread complaining about them that there made cheaply, they don’t use quality drivers and so on , I say stick to a martin Logan thread. Gary the music monster Edited July 23, 2019 by Music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog RJ Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, ghost4man said: RJ That is very interesting BUT - and yes I know there is always a but - you need to clarify this by providing a reference point. Quoting the above is meaningless without it. What were the speakers like before? The physical differences between the 20.7 and 30.7 is glaringly obvious RJ. And then when one explores even further and notices that the bass panels have magnets on both sides one realises how much of an upgrade this is. Having vacuum bonded panels that have presumably been soaked with Nepalese yak semen might sound really good on the spec sheet but do they give better sound reproduction. I cant answer that. Its all on the ML website, including the white papers on the Statements. Why do you think I always head to Spore once a year, and although my mate has the Infinity's IRSv, CLX's, Alsyvox and had Maggies, which were sold off, we always end up listening to the Statements just for that wonderful experience. They are a very high maintenance panel, and require an awful lot of care by a team who knows about such designs. Over the years ML has evolved their materials towards tighter tolerances and far greater rigidness compared to their previous wooden frames. Now their frames are all made from carbon alloy or aircraft grade alloys. The CLX's alone have 6 different alloys in them, that's what makes them special and they've gone a step further towards the mighty Neoliths, which I've also had the pleasure of listening to. It's the Neolith that has now replaced the Statements, simply because the statements are not a viable project. Remember the Concord? What an amazing aircraft, and what do we have now? Average Boeing's falling out of the sky... Anyway, enough said, I'm off. Have a good one, RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog RJ Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 G-man, just enjoy the music and you'll be fine. Relax and take it easy mate. Life's too short... Remember you're the one who said that? Cheers and keep smiling Take a load off bud, RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Big Dog RJ said: G-man, just enjoy the music and you'll be fine. Relax and take it easy mate. Life's too short... Remember you're the one who said that? Cheers and keep smiling Take a load off bud, RJ Yes at last I agree with something your saying.. Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggmeister Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 @Music monster You sure love those maggies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just now, Yngvi said: @Music monster You sure love those maggies. Yes I certainly do. Before these 30.7s I only liked horn speakers especially klipsch, but now I am a Maggie’s fan for life. Gary the music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eggmeister Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Music monster said: Yes I certainly do. Before these 30.7s I only liked horn speakers especially klipsch, but now I am a Maggie’s fan for life. Gary the music monster Were you ever a horn fan forever ? Edited July 23, 2019 by Caelian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) I am definitely a horn fan, in some respects more than magnapans. These two different types of speakers are the only ones that satisfy me, so I am a magnapan and horn speaker fan and lover for life.Gary the music monster Edited July 23, 2019 by Music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Music monster said: I’m very happy with the build quality of my 30.7s. I don’t think they're cheaply build at all. They use solid wood, nice grills and quality parts. Gary the music monster Mmmm but Gary, from the pics I've seen, Magnepan certainly have continued to use the same steel spkr wire connectors & steel fuse holders they've used on all previous models. They do this because they have always worked on minimising production costs - which is certainly a good thing, as it means they are still in bizniz - but I would've thought for their new, extra expensive top model ... they might have decided to use better quality connectors? Do you know of any other spkr mfr who uses steel spkr wire connectors? Re. solid wood: yes, the trim pieces are strips of nice-looking solid wood but the frame that holds the driver assemblies in place ... is MDF. There have been many posts on the Planar Asylum over the last 15 years from folk who have replaced their stock MDF frames with hardwood frames and gotten an improvement in SQ as a result (due, in part, to the stiffness of hardwood, compared to MDF). Having heard some 20.7s a while ago - and some 3.7s recently - I'm very interested in hearing some 30.7s. To my way of thinking they have a number of advantages over the 20.7: more bass panel area the ribbon cage is on a separate frame - so won't be shaken by bass panel vibrations having the mid/ribbon frame separate to the bass frame means the frames can be placed to be time-aligned also, the ability to toe-in the 2 frames each side to a different degree, towards your ears, is helpful for finessing the sound stage. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Music monster Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) On 23/07/2019 at 4:43 PM, andyr said: Mmmm but Gary, from the pics I've seen, Magnepan certainly have continued to use the same steel spkr wire connectors & steel fuse holders they've used on all previous models. They do this because they have always worked on minimising production costs - which is certainly a good thing, as it means they are still in bizniz - but I would've thought for their new, extra expensive top model ... they might have decided to use better quality connectors? Do you know of any other spkr mfr who uses steel spkr wire connectors? Re. solid wood: yes, the trim pieces are strips of nice-looking solid wood but the frame that holds the driver assemblies in place ... is MDF. There have been many posts on the Planar Asylum over the last 15 years from folk who have replaced their stock MDF frames with hardwood frames and gotten an improvement in SQ as a result (due, in part, to the stiffness of hardwood, compared to MDF). Having heard some 20.7s a while ago - and some 3.7s recently - I'm very interested in hearing some 30.7s. To my way of thinking they have a number of advantages over the 20.7: more bass panel area the ribbon cage is on a separate frame - so won't be shaken by bass panel vibrations having the mid/ribbon frame separate to the bass frame means the frames can be placed to be time-aligned also, the ability to toe-in the 2 frames each side to a different degree, towards your ears, is helpful for finessing the sound stage. Andy May be so Andy but I find the connections for the speakers to be excellent. They are all gold plated on my 30.7s and my speaker cable with banana plugs fits in perfectly, better than any speakers I have had before. The fuse holders are also gold plated.Agree with your points on the 30.7s, but don’t forget the new midrange driver and lower midrange and two way bass are new and the best drivers magnapan has ever used. The xover is also a higher grade than the 20.7s. Gary the music monster Edited August 20, 2019 by Music monster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Music monster said: May be so Andy but I find the connections for the speakers to be excellent. They are all gold plated on my 30.7s and my speaker cable with banana plugs fits in perfectly, better than any speakers I have had before. The fuse holders are also gold plated.Agree with your points on the 30.7s, but don’t forget the new midrange driver and lower midrange and two way bass are new and the best drivers magnapan has ever used. The xover is also a higher grade than the 20.7s. Gary the music monster Aah, thank you for that, Gary. The gold plated connectors & fuse holders are definitely a step up from the other ones! And, sure the mid driver and the bass drivers are all new. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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