Guest Muon N' Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 It's definitely an interesting chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted January 25, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted January 25, 2020 41 minutes ago, was_a said: A good review / advertorial ! (Click on the LINK and get 10% off). But there were some valuable observations on AKM's new chip. Reading between the lines, this is the biggest draw-card. Gustard's implementation in its new A22 DAC will be interesting with its transformer utilisation etc. Yes I did notice that. I guess they are just being a bit more honest about their conflict of interest than most hi-fi mags are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 54 minutes ago, was_a said: A good review / advertorial ! (Click on the LINK and get 10% off). But there were some valuable observations on AKM's new chip. Reading between the lines, this is the biggest draw-card. Gustard's implementation in its new A22 DAC will be interesting with its transformer utilisation etc. The lines are blurred for me. Can you please explain what you are eluding to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) I would hope I'm not eluding anyone! I agreed with the reviewer's observations on past AKM and Sabre chips - the differences between them in sound character. The AK-4499 appears to be a substantial improvement over previous AKMs (particularly the prior AK-4497) and has impressive dynamic range etc. Of course, making the most of this is another matter. The Topping D90 only uses one chip, but this is no disadvantage to the impending dual-chip competition, in my opinion. (The best Sabre Pro DACs I've heard were all single chip affairs). The fact that the AK-4499 is fully dependent on current is the main technical challenge for designers, and perhaps the small-footprint D90 is taking shortcuts here. The size of the transformer is a case in point. Edited January 25, 2020 by was_a 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Not very challenging, just requires IV conversion, can be as simple as a resistor, but would more likely be done by the first op amp in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 On 23/01/2020 at 11:48 AM, silversurfer said: I actually have one; received it this morning. My main dac is a Metrum Pavane which is fantastic but slightly sleepy, also have a Border Patrol and they all perform very good with my headphones(HD800S, SR009S, SR007 and various Audeze) and amps( KGST, KGSS, Woo WA22, HDV820 and Hifiman EF6) but I always wanted a more holographic soundstage and Instrument/vocals layering. And at the moment the D90 does just that...relaxed sound with effortless extension up and down, warmish but ultra clear as in good body with faultless resolution. The holographic aspect is quite stunning with instruments and voices presented around me and deep into the soundstage...as they say like being in the room with the artist. Not regretting the purchase and possibly going to sell the Pavane. Just saw the Pavane up for sale. Still enjoying the Topping D90? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversurfer Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Yes, and it is smaller too...space saving. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jof062 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Brought a D10 to use as a usb converter for a Windows 10 based desktop system and was also impressed by its Dac SQ for the money and was thinking i might try a D70 in my main system The issue is my Yamaha AS2000 is limited to 2.8 volts via its balanced input and the D70 has a output of 4 volts. The Topping can be used as a preamp as well so does that mean if i lower the dac volume control in pre mode it will lower the dac output voltage to get me down to below 2.8v???? Cheers Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengineer Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 @Suopermanni DX7 Pro or D50S and SP200? DX7 is like $300 or so more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jof062 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 16 hours ago, was_a said: Yes. Just reread my post from yesterday and i have not explained myself very well by using the wording "In Pre Mode". What i wanted to do is use the d70 as a dac only to my integrated and wanted to know if lowering the dac volume would lower the voltage? After doing some more reading last night i think it might not do this? Cheers Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) In the menu you have the option to switch off the volume control i.e. Dac mode. For a direct connection to your integrated amp, leaving the volume control on won't harm the resolution if you're only dialling it back by 10dB or so. Edited February 5, 2020 by was_a 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 @was_a this is something I agree with you on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Thank you! You see, people can always find common ground somewhere...! Mind you, you wouldn't have been happy with me had you seen my posts on ASR. I registered and posted in Amir's review of the Gustard A22 DAC. I thanked him for his measurements, with the proviso that such measurements should only be used as a guide to performance, not an indication of sound quality. Above my post was another from a member wanting to know how the Gustard A22 sounded. I repeated his question. It was like disturbing a swarm of bees. Three or four brainwashed zombies replied one after the other, laying into me, dismissing my question on how the A22 sounded as nonsense. I replied politely, saying a DAC's sound quality was mainly influenced by the analogue output stage, power supply, circuit design, component choices, use of interpolation filters. Noise and distortion metrics wouldn't tell you much, I said. Well, that was it. You should have read the responses. They went crazy!!! The next day my posts had been deleted by a moderator, who described me as a TROLL who had been permanently banned. The internet can be a dangerous place! Edited February 5, 2020 by was_a 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 47 minutes ago, was_a said: Thank you! You see, people can always find common ground somewhere...! Mind you, you wouldn't have been happy with me had you seen my posts on ASR. I registered and posted in Amir's review of the Gustard A22 DAC. I thanked him for his measurements, with the proviso that such measurements should only be used as a guide to performance, not an indication of sound quality. Above my post was another from a member wanting to know how the Gustard A22 sounded. I repeated the question. It was like disturbing a swarm of bees. Three or four brainwashed zombies replied one after the other, laying into me, describing my question on how the A22 sounded as nonsense. I replied politely, saying a DAC's sound quality was mainly influenced by the analogue output stage, power supply, circuit design, component choices, use of interpolation filters. Noise and distortion metrics wouldn't tell you much, I said. Well, that was it. You should have read the responses. They went crazy!!! The next day my posts had been deleted by a moderator, who described me as a TROLL who had been permanently banned. The internet can be a dangerous place! Yes, well that seems a serious over reaction. I'll have to look at the thread. There are people on every forum who take things too seriously. While they may have perceived your post as trolling every opinion needs to be tested. There was no reason to ban you. I support your right to make your comments and detest any censorship. There you are, two points of agreement. That doesn't mean I agree with your reliance on subjective listening over objective measurement as reason to choose one DAC over another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 OK. I looked at the ASR post/s you made as Tonto? Is that the user name you used on ASR? Obviously I can't see the posts that were removed. Still, I totally agree with @pozz ,on ASR. You are barking up the wrong tree thinking a DAC will to contribute to detail, soundstage width/depth, imaging and treble/bass extension. If it is a good measuring DAC it will present those attributes correctly. A good DAC will present the information unaltered and will not contribute to detail, soundstage width/depth, imaging and treble/bass extension. Still you have the right to debate the issue even if I don't agree with your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Tonto was the guy who initially asked the question. I followed up. I just wanted to know if Amir had listened to the Gustard A-22 and if it sounded any good. I get quite excited when a new chip comes out. In my opinion the latest chips by Sabre and AKM have improved the sound quality of many DAC designs. While it's unsafe to generalise, I believe that modern DACs sound a lot better than DACs and CD players a decade ago. Edited February 5, 2020 by was_a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, a.dent said: That doesn't mean I agree with your reliance on subjective listening over objective measurement as reason to choose one DAC over another. I understand where you're coming from. In my defence, I wouldn't say I rely on listening to judge a DAC's merits; measurements are a useful guide to performance and we ignore them at our peril. (I can think of a few products where obvious design flaws - or character traits! - showed up in distortion figures or frequency charts and were clearly audible in the listening chair). My approach is firstly to look at a component's specs, then read measurements, reviews, opinions, and listen to the component. In my last post on ASR I pointed out that electronic engineers and designers spend an enormous amount of time listening to their prototypes as part of the design process. This subjective process - to borrow your word - is absolutely vital. (On ASR the crowd went even more berserk when I posted that). So yes, a.dent, ultimately my ears will be the final arbiter when deciding on a DAC. Perhaps this is where you and I differ? Edited February 5, 2020 by was_a 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, a.dent said: Still, I totally agree with @pozz ,on ASR. You are barking up the wrong tree thinking a DAC will to contribute to detail, soundstage width/depth, imaging and treble/bass extension. If it is a good measuring DAC it will present those attributes correctly. A good DAC will present the information unaltered and will not contribute to detail, soundstage width/depth, imaging and treble/bass extension. And we differ here, certainly, because I strongly disagree! But luckily neither of us will be labelled as trolls and banned, I hope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 34 minutes ago, was_a said: And we differ here, certainly, because I strongly disagree! But luckily neither of us will be labelled as trolls and banned, I hope! So you are saying a DAC is important in determining detail, soundstage width/depth, imaging and treble/bass extension. I agree. But if two DACs reproduce the analog output accurately from the same digital input they must sound the same and will not contribute anything to the sound. They will just be reproducing the analog signal the way it was before it was originally digitised. Therefore all the detail, soundstage width/depth, imaging and treble/bass extension will be the same from good measuring DACs. Any variation from this will be distortion of the original pre-digitised signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) This is where we differ in our thinking. Firstly, the word accurate is rather presumptive. What is accuracy in terms of digital playback? Accurate to the master tape? Accurate to the post-production WAV file as heard through an engineer's Beyerdynamic headphones? On ASR they'd simply point to an oscilloscope. But this is simplistic. Sure, an amplitude chart measuring playback with a Topping D30 could match - sine wave for sine wave - that measured by the engineer in the post-production house. If that is an audiophile's definition of transparency or accuracy, then fine! On ASR they call it sound quality, I found out!! Secondly, those attributes you mentioned - detail, soundstage, imaging and treble/bass extension - are at the mercy of many variables of a DAC's design and electrical topology. You would probably ask how, and request a scientifically proven metric. But how do you quantify, for example, the improvement in dynamics when replacing a cheaply made transformer with a higher-grade one of the same value? How do you quantify the wider soundstage of a Sabre DAC in comparison to a Cirrus Logic one? Why do boutique foil capacitors make the upper-mids sound clearer?......... Good versus bad power supplies............Crude versus well-developed output stages.............Discreet circuits versus op-amps........... You would disagree with this argument, I think, and say that none of this affects detail, soundstage, imaging, treble/bass resolution. And round and round we go, ad infinitum! Edited February 5, 2020 by was_a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 We’ll leave it there for now then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafenears Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, was_a said: Tonto was the guy who initially asked the question. I followed up. I just wanted to know if Amir had listened to the Gustard A-22 and if it sounded any good. FWiW, Amir didn't review or measured the A22, someone else did (Wolf-X700). It's not yet released and no one sent one in. https://l7audiolab.com/f/review-and-measurements-of-gustard-dac-a22 Edited February 5, 2020 by deafenears Added link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Thanks deafenears. Lucky then that I didn't refer to Amir by name! I referred to 'the OP'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafenears Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) No probs. I'm now curious to read what you wrote to cause that kind of reaction and being flagged as a 'troll' lol. But yeah, like with most forums these days, always some weird and interesting characters. Edited February 6, 2020 by deafenears read read twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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