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Plinius 8150 Amp question


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40 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

Ok then, you can view this YouTube video from Pauls Posts for starters.  Paul McGowan pretty much covers this topic.  He is the owner of PS Audio in the US and is a veteran in the manufacture of high-end audio with 40+ years experience, manufacturing Class A, AB, D, MOSFET and hybrid vacuum tube designs.

I am well aware of Mr McGowan and his products. Some of what he states is bang-on and some is nonsense. I have not viewed the particular video you cited. I may do so tomorrow.

 

I do, however, direct you to this specification sheet from a typical, high quality electrolytic capacitor manufacturer:

 

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1792286.pdf?_ga=2.114744192.603030959.1547452860-1632355343.1545968869&_gac=1.216868130.1545968869.EAIaIQobChMIqsq_487B3wIVRaSWCh0nwANUEAQYAiABEgIWtPD_BwE

 

Look and read page 3 carefully. Note the life-span of the caps at various temperatures. It perfectly illustrates why it is important to keep electrolytic capacitors cool wherever possible. That means shutting equipment off when not in use. 

 

40 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

 

In the case of my 8150, Plinius used 85 degree Marcons, a budget cap.  Other owners may open their amps up and find better caps than my one had.  It's whatever Plinius had on the shelf at the time maybe.  If one was to service their 8150 themselves they can put whatever they like in as they will probably know what they are doing.  If they take their amp to a HiFi service agent worth their salt and ask for audiophile cap upgrades I would imagine the service agent will put decent caps in if they appreciate audio, as my local audio repair guy did.  But a good place to start is to look for/ask for 105 degree audiophile grade caps.  You are right in that the other specs need to be considered and I agree.  What I am saying is that my audio repair guy makes his own high performance amps and does not buy in low grade caps.  He buys audiophile 105 degree caps and made a point of telling me what caps he installed and why.

I have no argument with the use of high quality electrolytic capacitors in any products. What I take issue with is your claim that extended high temperature operation is not a major problem. Far from it: It is a BIG problem and capacitor manufacturers know it. They all take care in spelling out the limitations in their spec sheets. Switch on and switch off are simply not a problem. Heat is the enemy of electrolytic caps. 

 

 

40 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

 

When you buy a Plinius 8150 amp you are getting something special.  The 8150 was regarded by Neil Grader as one of the ten most significant amplifiers of all time.  Google it.  What makes it so good even today is excellent engineering and clever circuit design.  It's a Class AB amp and what contributed to making it so good is the significant biasing into Class A.  A byproduct of this design is the generation of heat.  But the heat is not a nuisance as such, as without it the amp would not be as good. It NEEDS to run warm to perform.  Turning it off is stopping you from getting the full enjoyment from it.  When I come home from a hard day (times vary) one of my favourite things to do is to stick on some good music and settle myself in the sweet spot.  Having to wait for it to warm up would be a real pain.  I made a personal decision that leaving it on and getting the enjoyment from it was more important than thermal aging and power consumption.  That's the price you pay for audiophile grade listening.

As long as you understand that you are needlessly shortening the life of your amp and causing your electricity bill to be higher than it needs to be, then fine. I do not share your view. 

 

40 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

 

Take my Plinius SA-50 amps for example.  They are Class A/AB switchable. Most of the time I leave them in Class AB to limit thermal aging and lower power consumption.  But late at night when all the ambient noise quietens down I want the performance they offer and I switch them to Class A.  They get REALLY HOT, way more than my 8150.  Now the benefits of Class A do not come into effect straight away.  It takes about 2+ hours before I hear the silkiness, detail, transparency and sound stage depth that Class A has.  They have to heat up and settle into another level of performance.  Interestingly when I opened one of them up they had 85 degree caps in the DC blocking stage.  Some time I will get these serviced too for peace of mind as they are 25 years old now.  Hobbies typically cost you, not many hobbies make you money.

 

Don't be too concerned about the heat generated.  I was worried initially but then I realised it was normal.  Just make sure the heat can escape unhindered, and enjoy it!  My concern was the age of the amp as in my first post and having the amp serviced assured me that is was ready for another 20+ years of great listening.

 

The heat is a big problem for the electrolytic caps. 

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7 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Irrespective of the other reasons, there is one really good reason not to leave your electronics on 24/7 that's hard to argue against. Despite the title of this article, it is about leaving electronics on:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-193-nordost-flatline-cables

One of the things I get a habit of doing is never leave anything on except for the fridge when you leave the house.  Even on standby.  I have a tendency to switch off at the wall.  There has been Panel TV and entertainment gear left on standby and starting a fire.  Even exhaust fans in bathrooms.    The thing is to switch everything off apart from the fridge and security systems.  Get into the habit of unplugging anything that charges Lithium batteries too.  Always hang around when Lithium Batteries are being charged.   There’s also being numerous white goods appliance burning the house down because they were left on standby, such as washing machines, and dishwashers,  Samsung still have a recall out and there are lots of these models out in the field where owners are bliss to that info.   Standby only uses less than a few watts, but the CFA will advised against it left on.

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I never said caps don't degrade.  That's what servicing your equipment takes care of.

 

You can talk about specifications until you are blue in the face.  Do you enjoy music?  If you own a Plinius 8150 the manufacturer recommends leaving it turned on if listened to on a daily basis.  This is to get the best out of your investment, as designed.

 

If you don't want to do this you are presented with two alternatives:

1. Sell it and buy something else that gives you a performance as good as or better than that does not need to be left on when not in use

2. Turn it off when not in use and endure the warm-up period

 

It's of no consequence to me how people use their amp.  The question was asked to 8150 owners whether to leave it on or turn it off and I gave my feedback.

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10 hours ago, Rayblo said:

I never said caps don't degrade.  That's what servicing your equipment takes care of.

You claimed that the major problem was at switch on. This is incorrect and highly misleading advice. The major problem facing electrolytic capacitors is heat and time. Switching a hot running product off, when not required, will ensure that the electrolytic capacitors last longer. 

 

10 hours ago, Rayblo said:

 

You can talk about specifications until you are blue in the face.  Do you enjoy music?

Irrelevant. You made the claim, then failed to support that claim. I supplied the data from the capacitor manufacturer to support my statement. 

 

10 hours ago, Rayblo said:

 

 

  If you own a Plinius 8150 the manufacturer recommends leaving it turned on if listened to on a daily basis.  This is to get the best out of your investment, as designed.

Can you cite where Plinius state that the amp should be left operating 24/7? 

 

10 hours ago, Rayblo said:

 

If you don't want to do this you are presented with two alternatives:

1. Sell it and buy something else that gives you a performance as good as or better than that does not need to be left on when not in use

2. Turn it off when not in use and endure the warm-up period

I supplied two further options:

 

* Arrange for a remote switch to turn the amp on.

* Put the amp on a timer.

 

Personally, I regard neither as a particularly good idea, as appliances like your Plinius should not be operated unattended. 

 

10 hours ago, Rayblo said:

 

It's of no consequence to me how people use their amp.  The question was asked to 8150 owners whether to leave it on or turn it off and I gave my feedback.

And I pointed out some better solutions and your error/s. 

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Thankyou Diynamic, you beat me to it.

 

Capacitors degrade for many reasons. Heat, thermal change stress and initial switch on from a discharged state. Of course capacitors will last a very long time if left on the parts shelf. But that is not conductive in the pursuit of audiophile excellence.  I would rather have a amplifier that is under a little stress in the pursuit of exceptional sound quality and replace the caps every 20 years knowing they have a lesser lifespan due to the enviromment they are used in.

 

Like I said, Plinius designed this amp to be used this way. If one does not like it they can buy something else.

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6 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

Thankyou Diynamic, you beat me to it.

 

Capacitors degrade for many reasons. Heat, thermal change stress and initial switch on from a discharged state. Of course capacitors will last a very long time if left on the parts shelf. But that is not conductive in the pursuit of audiophile excellence.  I would rather have a amplifier that is under a little stress in the pursuit of exceptional sound quality and replace the caps every 20 years knowing they have a lesser lifespan due to the enviromment they are used in.

 

Like I said, Plinius designed this amp to be used this way. If one does not like it they can buy something else.

In general stating this thread I was basically seeing if there was any problems with owners 8150s but sure have had a good read and some learning in this segment:)   

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Regardless of what they say about their amp, @Zaphod Beeblebrox Is still correct about the life of Capacitors. 

Seems people can’t see the difference between the function of combined parts (amp) and the needs of the individual. 

 

Think about it. 

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19 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

Thankyou Diynamic, you beat me to it.

 

Capacitors degrade for many reasons. Heat, thermal change stress and initial switch on from a discharged state.

 

Stop making this unsubstantiated claim. Heat and time are the big killers of electrolytic capacitors. Switch on is not a problem for electrolytic capacitors in any properly designed product.

19 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

 

 

Of course capacitors will last a very long time if left on the parts shelf. But that is not conductive in the pursuit of audiophile excellence.  I would rather have a amplifier that is under a little stress in the pursuit of exceptional sound quality and replace the caps every 20 years knowing they have a lesser lifespan due to the enviromment they are used in.

 

IF they last 20 years. Operating a 3,000 hour capacitor at constant high temperatures will see compromised performance in far less than 20 years. 

 

19 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

 

Like I said, Plinius designed this amp to be used this way. If one does not like it they can buy something else.

I have never seen an amplifier manufacturer suggest that their product be left permanently powered. It is not smart design. 

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Guest Eggcup The Daft

 

Another device recommended to be always on. There are a few out there.

 

It's probably best to weigh up the different viewpoints in this thread before deciding what's best for you, your equipment and how you use it - but get the facts straight first.

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I for the life of me cannot understand why they think 48hours is needed. Once an amp is at optimal temp, and that won’t take long being used, it should be at its best at that point. 

 

This kind of argument is like an atheist vs Christian debate ;)

Edited by Sime V2
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To clear this up I’ve sent Plinius headquarters an email ..I’m sure manufactures have spent years in development and there is always a positive and a negative . Only they can have an explanation.. 

Edited by Diynamic
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I always left my 8150 on all the time except if I wasn't going to be using it for more than a few days.

 

I don't really care if the insides wear out quicker, or if the power bill was slightly higher. It's a trade off I can live with to get better sound. I found it took at east a day to sound optimal. About an hour to be 95% there, 24 hours to be 99% optimal so when using it for at least a few hours a day, for me, it just made sense to leave it on permanently.

 

I also used to use a Gram Slee Reflex  Era  Gold. Not sure about burn in, as mine was secondhand, but it did take a few days from cold to sound its best.

 

Whether it was the equipment in absolute terms sounding better, or my human brain just perceiving it as better...who really cares. 

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12 minutes ago, Diynamic said:

To clear this up I’ve sent Plinius headquarters an email ..I’m sure manufactures have spent years in development and there is always a positive and a negative . Only they can have an explanation.. 

Was just going to suggest you ask them direct! 

 

Gary Morrison has moved on to Pure Audio but it will be interesting to hear the response from the current Plinius  regarding their legacy product. 

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I have followed Plinius products since '93, I know how they are used.  Before that I had a highly modified Cambridge Audio A250 and a NAD, and they were always on too.

 

My amp was mfg in '99. It had 85 degree Marcons.  I had it serviced in 2018.  The caps were down 10%, which is not too bad.  Although the HiFi service guy said they did not need replacing yet I still wanted them replaced as:

1. I wanted peace of mind

2. I wanted higher capacitance audiophile grade caps for a beefier and better powersupply

3. I did not want to have the amp repaired for another 20+ years if possible

 

There are a lot of amplifier manufacturers who design their products to be left on.  As Zaphoid is familiar with PS products he should know this as they do the same thing.  Read the fine print in the manual.  Often, standby does not turn off the amp sections, it just disables buttons, screens, outputs etc.

 

The reality is that a Class A or AB amp runs best hot and thermally stable.  Capacitor degradation is just the nature of the beast.  Out of any component in an electrical device it is the capacitor that is mechanically the weakest. That's life. That's what servicing is for as I already said.

 

Turning a Class A or AB amp off to cold, and then turning it back on and then using when hot and optimal also stresses caps (and the rest of the circuit, solder joints etc to a lesser degree) in the long run.  As the user you have to decide which is the best way to use the amp for your own circumstances.  If you don't like this I hear Class D amps have come a long way, although I have little experience in these except that I have one in my Subwoofer, which I think is where they belong.

 

Look at the bright side, folks.  If you have the amp serviced at some point you may just end up with a better sounding amp with newer better caps, as I did. My 8150 sounds better than when it was made.  The quality of the caps makes a big difference in audio reproduction.  Remember that with a Class A/AB amp the powersupply does not merely supply power to the amplifier.  THE POWERSUPPLY IS THE AMPLIFIER.  The transistors are the 'shutters'.  

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26 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

 

Turning a Class A or AB amp off to cold, and then turning it back on and then using when hot and optimal also stresses caps (and the rest of the circuit, solder joints etc to a lesser degree) in the long run.

You keep making this claim as if it has any validity. It does not. HEAT is the killer of electrolytic caps. 

 

Solder joints stressed by turning an amp on and off? Not in this universe. 

 

Stop making this specious claim. HEAT is the enemy of electrolytic caps. Leaving an amp permanently powered will accelerate wear on electrolytic caps.  

 

26 minutes ago, Rayblo said:

 

 

  As the user you have to decide which is the best way to use the amp for your own circumstances.  If you don't like this I hear Class D amps have come a long way, although I have little experience in these except that I have one in my Subwoofer, which I think is where they belong.

 

Look at the bright side, folks.  If you have the amp serviced at some point you may just end up with a better sounding amp with newer better caps, as I did. My 8150 sounds better than when it was made.  The quality of the caps makes a big difference in audio reproduction.  Remember that with a Class A/AB amp the powersupply does not merely supply power to the amplifier.  THE POWERSUPPLY IS THE AMPLIFIER.  The transistors are the 'shutters'.  

None of which has ever been in dispute. Any manufacturer that specifies that their amplifier, which runs hot (convection cooled), should be left permanently powered, but chooses 85 degree C caps needs a swift kick up the bum. 

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Swift kick up the bum eh?  Well if you are an assemby technician on a production line in a small HiFi manufacturing company trying to make ends meet and you are tempted to grab a more expensive component off the shelf than the one the bean counters decided on, let's see who gets their asses kicked. There are bigger forces at work than what a lowly engineer decides should happen.

 

At least in a world of throwaway products, RoHS and SMT the 8150 was manufactured in an age before that. It can be repaired and improved, and give you another 40+ years of audiophile pleasure if you want it.

 

I am in IT and used to spend a lot of time in datacenters. One of the things we used to dread is turning off older equipment, because sometimes it would not turn back on. Cause? Most likely a capacitor in the PSU. Those places are cold and dust free. Things are not always that black and white.

 

Go into a recording studio and ask the engineers if they turn off their equipment after a shift. I can guarantee you they will say something to the effect of "hell no!". I bet they leave their backup equipment on too.

 

Zaphod, you seem to be ignoring the fact that a capacitor although an electrical device is also very much mechanical. An electrolytic contains foil plates and an electrolytic goo. As it charges and discharges it generates heat. The can is sealed to take the pressure as the cap heats up. If it is always on in a psu situation it is handling a ripple current. A fairly static situation.

 

When you charge a cap from a discharged state it goes through a thermal shock. The seals that hold the goo in (that are still cold) have to respond to the changing goo temperature.  Over time this affects them as they age, shortening their life as well. PSU caps are quite large in comparison to other caps and in an amp such as the 8150 also have to contend with the elevated temp of the enclosure.

 

In an amplifier that runs fairly warm, with some components that get quite hot, they pull on the solder joints. If you are turning the amp off all the time this causes a pushing and pulling effect on the joints as the expand and contract. If the soldering was never that good to start with it can potentially cause faults. My 8150 was like that. The repair guy had to resolder mine.  Just something to be mindful of.

 

This is an amp that a lot of people will have for a very long time. Age on the components is a factor to consider as well as heat.

 

Well, I'm going off this topic now. You can take or leave what I have said and make your own mind up.

 

But to any 8150 owners out there who want to know about a mod that was done on my preamp I am happy to pass it on.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Rayblo said:

Swift kick up the bum eh?  Well if you are an assemby technician on a production line in a small HiFi manufacturing company trying to make ends meet and you are tempted to grab a more expensive component off the shelf than the one the bean counters decided on, let's see who gets their asses kicked. There are bigger forces at work than what a lowly engineer decides should happen.

Any product that is not fitted with the components specified by the design engineer is a product to avoid. 

 

Quote

 

At least in a world of throwaway products, RoHS and SMT the 8150 was manufactured in an age before that. It can be repaired and improved, and give you another 40+ years of audiophile pleasure if you want it.

Sure, as can many other fine products. Many of those products are built using components specified by the design engineers and not the bean counters.

 

Quote

 

I am in IT and used to spend a lot of time in datacenters. One of the things we used to dread is turning off older equipment, because sometimes it would not turn back on. Cause? Most likely a capacitor in the PSU. Those places are cold and dust free. Things are not always that black and white.

The reason why old computer equipment was not switched off, was because old hard drives lacked automatic 'parking'. Old style 'mini computers' and mainframes use VERY high grade capacitors with typical life-spans of 100,000 hours. Capacitors found in typical audio products are usually less than 10,000 hours. Frequently, they are 2,000 hour components. 

 

Quote

 

Go into a recording studio and ask the engineers if they turn off their equipment after a shift. I can guarantee you they will say something to the effect of "hell no!". I bet they leave their backup equipment on too.

I've been in more recording studios than I've had hot breakfasts. I've installed equipment in a few and attended a few recording sessions until the wee hours. At the end of what is usually a VERY long day (well past midnight for many),  the studio is shut down. The risk of fire is far too great to leave the equipment powered. 

 

Quote

 

Zaphod, you seem to be ignoring the fact that a capacitor although an electrical device is also very much mechanical. An electrolytic contains foil plates and an electrolytic goo. As it charges and discharges it generates heat. The can is sealed to take the pressure as the cap heats up. If it is always on in a psu situation it is handling a ripple current. A fairly static situation.

I ignore nothing. I am very well aware of the limitations of electrolytic capacitors. HEAT is the enemy.  And yes, as an electrolytic cap is subject to charge/discharge cycles, it gets warm. This occurs continuously and is why capacitors are rated as XX Amps ripple current. By comparison, the initial switch-on is utterly and completely insignificant. Good manufacturers choose appropriate components to do the job, combined with appropriate attention to proper cooling of those components. Ripple current rating is important. However, the heat generated by nearby components is VERY important too. 

 

Quote

 

When you charge a cap from a discharged state it goes through a thermal shock.

Really? Got a capacitor manufacturer's cite for that claim?

 

Quote

 The seals that hold the goo in (that are still cold) have to respond to the changing goo temperature.  Over time this affects them as they age, shortening their life as well. PSU caps are quite large in comparison to other caps and in an amp such as the 8150 also have to contend with the elevated temp of the enclosure.

That's what I have been explaining to you. It is the EXTERNAL heat sources that are the most problematical for amplifiers like your Plinius. And yes, under normal operation, electrolytic caps will generate internal heat. An initial switch-on is an insignificant problem. I get that you are scrabbling for excuses to justify leaving your amp on. That's normal human nature. However, your claims of thermal shock, failing solder joints due to thermal shock are just bogus. There are far more important and significant problems. 

 

Quote

 

In an amplifier that runs fairly warm, with some components that get quite hot, they pull on the solder joints. If you are turning the amp off all the time this causes a pushing and pulling effect on the joints as the expand and contract. If the soldering was never that good to start with it can potentially cause faults. My 8150 was like that. The repair guy had to resolder mine.  Just something to be mindful of.

Poor solder joints will certainly suffer under elevated temperatures. Nothing to do with switch on or switch off though. 

 

Quote

 

This is an amp that a lot of people will have for a very long time. Age on the components is a factor to consider as well as heat.

 

Well, I'm going off this topic now. You can take or leave what I have said and make your own mind up.

My business is and has been high quality audio servicing for many years. I am well versed in the failure modes of components in amplifiers. Switch-on surges can damage rectifiers, surge resistors, lamps, valves and other components, but NOT electrolytic caps (unless they have been sitting idle for a few years - but that is a completely different mechanism) nor solder joints. 

 

Quote

 

But to any 8150 owners out there who want to know about a mod that was done on my preamp I am happy to pass it on.

 

 

 

Edited by Zaphod Beeblebrox
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  • 1 year later...
On 15/01/2019 at 8:07 PM, Rayblo said:

I have followed Plinius products since '93, I know how they are used.  Before that I had a highly modified Cambridge Audio A250 and a NAD, and they were always on too.

 

My amp was mfg in '99. It had 85 degree Marcons.  I had it serviced in 2018.  The caps were down 10%, which is not too bad.  Although the HiFi service guy said they did not need replacing yet I still wanted them replaced as:

1. I wanted peace of mind

2. I wanted higher capacitance audiophile grade caps for a beefier and better powersupply

3. I did not want to have the amp repaired for another 20+ years if possible

 

There are a lot of amplifier manufacturers who design their products to be left on.  As Zaphoid is familiar with PS products he should know this as they do the same thing.  Read the fine print in the manual.  Often, standby does not turn off the amp sections, it just disables buttons, screens, outputs etc.

 

The reality is that a Class A or AB amp runs best hot and thermally stable.  Capacitor degradation is just the nature of the beast.  Out of any component in an electrical device it is the capacitor that is mechanically the weakest. That's life. That's what servicing is for as I already said.

 

Turning a Class A or AB amp off to cold, and then turning it back on and then using when hot and optimal also stresses caps (and the rest of the circuit, solder joints etc to a lesser degree) in the long run.  As the user you have to decide which is the best way to use the amp for your own circumstances.  If you don't like this I hear Class D amps have come a long way, although I have little experience in these except that I have one in my Subwoofer, which I think is where they belong.

 

Look at the bright side, folks.  If you have the amp serviced at some point you may just end up with a better sounding amp with newer better caps, as I did. My 8150 sounds better than when it was made.  The quality of the caps makes a big difference in audio reproduction.  Remember that with a Class A/AB amp the powersupply does not merely supply power to the amplifier.  THE POWERSUPPLY IS THE AMPLIFIER.  The transistors are the 'shutters'.  

Hi Ray. Thanks for your post. I'm personally owing a used Plinius 8150 which is a real wonder, except that from the start, there is a hiss in the speakers (not depending on the volume, 
so it constant fortunately). This is probably due to the aged capacitors, so I brought the amp to my local tech to have it serviced, but he was so impressed by the machine that he would 
NOT touch it in such a way without a schematic. The problem is that kind of schematic is not available, and the Plinius guys vanished into the blue ! So as you had your amp services 
correctly, if I understand correctly, I would really be interested by the technical details your tech may provide to my tech. 

Thanks anyway for any useful information you could send me.

Cheers mate !

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