How variable is your mains voltage?

[andyr]

5 hours ago, Assisi said:

Andy

My provider is Powercor.  When I asked them to do the logging the

Technical Officer Supply Quality
Reliability Delivery

 Contacted me to say that he had "looked at" my smart meter and those of my neighbours.  He could see that there definitely was an issue.  The graph is what he could see and he emailed it to me.  He was very helpful as I have found Powercor to be the few time I have needed to make contact .  They really want to please the customer.   I assume every Victorian provider could  provide you with the same information.  Contact your provider.

John

 

Thanks, John.    Will do.

 

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

You need a smart meter;

 

I thought every house in Vic had a 'smart meter' by now?

 

Certainly, as we moved into our (newly-built) house in Oct 2015 ... ours does.

 

Quote

If you've got solar, get yourself a Reposit box. 

 

No, I don't have solar power ... the roof area left after having to install solar hot water panels (Vic Building Regs) doesn't allow this - after the area that is taken up by the roof garden. 

 

Andy

 

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by andyr

[andyr]

On 14/11/2018 at 3:45 PM, MLXXX said:

I strongly suspect that occasional mains grid frequency wobbles up to +- 0.15Hz relative to 50Hz would go unnoticed when listening to a vinyl record with a turntable driven by a synchronous motor.

 

AIUI, if the TT's synchronous motor is driven by a speed controller that generates the appropriate frequencies for 33 1/3rd & 45 rpm operation (which I have) ... mains frequency alterations become irrelevant.

 

Andy

 

[MLXXX]

1 minute ago, andyr said:

 

AIUI, if the TT's synchronous motor is driven by a speed controller that generates the appropriate frequencies for 33 1/3rd & 45 rpm operation (which I have) ... mains frequency alterations become irrelevant.

 

Andy

 

Quite right.  I gather that quite a few modern turntables do do this. (I have an old turntable that actually uses the mains frequency to drive the synchronous motor.)

[Guest rmpfyf]

25 minutes ago, andyr said:

I thought every house in Vic had a 'smart meter' by now?

 

Certainly, as we moved into our (newly-built) house in Oct 2015 ... ours does.

There are exceptions out there. Certainly new builds have them.

 

26 minutes ago, andyr said:

No, I don't have solar power ... the roof area left after having to install solar hot water panels (Vic Building Regs) doesn't allow this - after the area that is taken up by the roof garden. 

You could rip that off and replace with solar PV. Evacuated tube hot water is not strictly required - it's one of a few things you can do to meet Building Code of Victoria 6-star regs... and it's usually the cheapest thing that can be done. The usual other (grey water, toilet hookup etc) costs a good deal more, so down here we usually end up seeing gas tanks (or instant, where there's less room) and evac tube systems.

 

As to monitoring mains voltage though, your main issue is that there's a ton of stuff you can buy but no one will take a problem seriously if the kit isn't sufficiently accurate and proven so. I have a Reposit Power kit at my home, does great things with PV (and batteries if I had one) but above all is very accurate to a recognised Class and will report at 1 second intervals. When I had an issue I had the distributor come out, rather than putting in a logger to see if the problem would recur they simply trusted what I had and went to work.

 

But then again some problems happen a lot faster than 1s and so real power loggers cost serious money and are usually installed in your meter box for a while to see what goes on.

 

Moral of the story: if you think there's an issue, call your energy distributor and see about them stuffing a logger in your meter box for a while.

[andyr]

2 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Moral of the story: if you think there's an issue, call your energy distributor and see about them stuffing a logger in your meter box for a while.

 

 

Well, having had a voltage display plugged in for a couple of years, I know that the mains voltage supply is higher than the 240v I'm happy to accept - so I will take your suggestion and request a graph.  If they can do this with the smart meter, remotely - all's well and good.  Otherwise they'll have to install a logger in my meter box.

 

Andy

 

[andyr]

2 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Quite right.  I gather that quite a few modern turntables do do this. (I have an old turntable that actually uses the mains frequency to drive the synchronous motor.)

 

If you listen to vinyl a lot ... mebbe you should investigate a modern TT motor speed controller?    If you tell me what motor you have (or what TT, if you don't know the motor) I can tell you whether the one I use is suitable.

 

Andy

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by andyr

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

If you listen to vinyl a lot ... mebbe you should investigate a modern TT motor speed controller?    If you tell me what motor you have (or what TT, if you don't know the motor) I can tell you whether the one I use is suitable.

 

Andy

 

On the topic of being concerned about mains frequency variation affecting a record player turntable, earlier in this thread I said this:

On 14/11/2018 at 10:27 PM, MLXXX said:

It appears to be a variation potentially around the threshold of perception, but to my mind it's close enough to being of practical consequence that to be on the safe side,  if I were very keen on listening to a lot of vinyl discs (I'm not!), I'd choose a turntable motor governed by a crystal controlled clock, and not one governed by the instantaneous mains frequency.

 

To put things in perspective, the mains frequency in Australia rarely deviates by more than about 0.15Hz. That represents 0.3% relative to 50Hz.

 

At 20 °C, the speed of sound in air is about 343 metres per second. The speed required to give a doppler shift of 0.3% would be 1.029 m/s.  One metre per second is not much!

 

Assume you are in a shopping centre on an escalator moving at 0.5m/s.  If you step off the escalator and pause before going on, do you notice a doppler shift in the shopping centre music?

 

If you start walking at 1.3m/s in a shopping centre, are you immediately conscious of a doppler shift in the music coming from loudspeakers in front of you? Does the pitch in fact rise for your ears? Conversely, do you notice a drop in pitch for sound coming from loudspeakers behind you? Do you also notice slight tempo changes in the music when you start walking [because you are progressively increasing or decreasing the time it takes for the music to reach your ears].

 

If your answers are yes, then a crystal controlled synchronous turntable motor may be strongly indicated for playing your vinyl pressings!  

[MLXXX]

11 hours ago, Assisi said:

Within hours the response was no logging required as the smart meter indicated high voltage at all hours of the day for me plus neighbours.  This will be rectified at the transformer within 5 days.  If this does not solve the problem more works will be done until it is fixed!

Great news, Assisi!

 

It's pleasing to see this example of the powers that be actually taking a query/complaint, about excessive mains voltage, seriously.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

17 hours ago, Assisi said:

@Eggcup The Daft

 

My meter has Powercor printed on it.  It is Powercor that tells the biller what to charge me including the payment for the meter.  Powercor is primary to me in the context of supply and that is who I contact if there is any problem.

Thanks. Glad to hear of positive experiences!

[Addicted to music]

On 16/11/2018 at 9:51 AM, Eggcup The Daft said:

Thanks. Glad to hear of positive experiences!

 

Powercor is very responsive,  b4 smart meters I was posting readings on another thread here on SNA.  Within 15mins of reporting of the 260V and climbing,  I had a knock on the door at around 9:30pm!   The guys confirmed with their MM that correspond to the Fluke12 reading of 260V.   They placed a logger for 48hrs on the meter box.  I then get in writing that there was an issue with the supply and it will take 2wks to rectify. Within 2 wks I received another letter to say it was resolved.  I haven’t seen a high reading, always in the 230-245V which I’m happy about.  

B4 that I use to have to replaced a compact Fluo every month and worst case 2 a week depending on usage.  Since it’s been rectified 5yrs approx,  i now rarely replace any CF.    All the CF I use are Philips brands with warm light.  

Now days in registered for notifications on blackouts.   No need to report blackouts, smart meters will do this automatically and I get a SMS to say it’s been rectified.  You can see on there website that as soon as a blackout happens there onto it! 

[ThirdDrawerDown]

251 volts here in our part of Western suburbs Melbourne (the highest reading I've seen today). Mostly it's 248.

[Assisi]

@Addicted to music

I have had 3 fluo tubes in my cellar for 30 years including with the high voltage situation that I have reported.  I have replaced only one tube and one ballast 10 years ago.  Maybe the tubes like the constant temperature.

Led lights have been a small problem in the house though.

John

[Addicted to music]

18 minutes ago, Assisi said:

@Addicted to music

I have had 3 fluo tubes in my cellar for 30 years including with the high voltage situation that I have reported.  I have replaced only one tube and one ballast 10 years ago.  Maybe the tubes like the constant temperature.

Led lights have been a small problem in the house though.

John

 

Fluro tubes 30yrs ago is very different to fluros now.  30yrs ago you would use a step down tranny with a starter(ballast)

When Philips introduced there CL range in the 90s they were $20-30 each, they were made in Holland and made to last 20,000hrs.  I still have a couple left that’s still going. They are now used in storage areas.  The current range of Philip CF are all coming from China with much lower life ratings and slightly cheaper.   Believe me they last nowhere near there rated life.   The current  Philips LEDs are the same. Ive replaced many epecially living, and kitchen areas.  There’s one spot in the kitchen that just doesn’t last! 

[MLXXX]

17 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

Fluro tubes 30yrs ago is very different to fluros now.  30yrs ago you would use a step down tranny with a starter(ballast)

When Philips introduced there CL range in the 90s they were $20-30 each, they were made in Holland and made to last 20,000hrs.  I still have a couple left that’s still going. They are now used in storage areas.  The current range of Philip CF are all coming from China with much lower life ratings and slightly cheaper.   Believe me they last nowhere near there rated life.

The common old style (4ft 40W)  fluorescent tube I'm familiar with from 30 years ago plus (in Australia), used a ballast, but no transformer. (When the bimetallic strip in the starter flipped to open circuit, the current that had been flowing through the ballast to run the heaters at both ends of the tube would create an inductive spike of voltage, across the ballast, sufficient to ignite the tube.)

 

Anyway, I have to agree with you about the limited life compact fluorescent lights can have. I've found it typical for compact fluorescents I've bought in recent years to lose their brightness very quickly. Incandescent bulbs, relatively cheap,  would work for a period, then burn out, and you'd have to replace them. With compact fluorescents (CF) there is a reduction in brightness, which may initially go unnoticed. Then one day you might find that a decorative lamp fitting with three old CF bulbs in it has faded so much, that is producing less light than one new CF bulb!

 

Are there particular brands of CF bulbs available today that don't fade prematurely?

 

17 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

The current  Philips LEDs are the same. Ive replaced many epecially living, and kitchen areas.  There’s one spot in the kitchen that just doesn’t last! 

We've been using LEDs for only a short while. So far they've kept going, and haven't faded, touch wood.

Edited November 19, 2018 by MLXXX

[davewantsmoore]

On 14/11/2018 at 11:27 PM, MLXXX said:

A drop to 49.5Hz would be 1% change relative to 50.0Hz, or 17 cents.  If that drop took place in just 5 or 6 seconds it is much more likely to be audible than a drop of only 5 cents. 

.... but you don't listen to your mains frequency.

 

If the mains frequency changes by 0.1% ... or 1% ... or whatever .....   then that doesn't change the pitch of the audio signal.

 

Other than a turntable with a synchronous AC motor, of course.

 

On 14/11/2018 at 11:27 PM, MLXXX said:

Here are two files: one where the frequency of the sine wave stays at 500Hz and one where it drops to  495Hz over 5 seconds. 

This has no relation to mains power frequency.

[davewantsmoore]

On 15/11/2018 at 11:35 PM, MLXXX said:

On the topic of being concerned about mains frequency variation affecting a record player turntable, earlier in this thread I said this:

Oh.  Sorry.

 

If you're actually mentioning all of this specifically for turntables .... then, righto.  Carry on   

[MLXXX]

On 19/11/2018 at 12:04 PM, davewantsmoore said:

Oh.  Sorry.

 

If you're actually mentioning all of this specifically for turntables .... then, righto.  Carry on   

Yes that is exactly what I was doing!

 

I was considering the effects on the sound when playing a vinyl record on a turntable that uses a synchronous motor that stays in step with the prevailing mains frequency (and not a turntable that has an independent source of speed control, such as a crystal oscillator).

 

Cheers

Edited November 20, 2018 by MLXXX

[Hal Saunders]

Three days back, after my solar shutting down, the installer came out and measured 257.6 v at the meter box. Essential Energy were out the next day, which was completely overcast so little solar going into the local grid, and measured 250v, which the guy proclaimed to be okay!
I have three pieces of hifi equipment (preamp, DAC, power amp) nominally rated at 220v, and I'm now reluctant to use the hifi during the day. My solar is, like all of them now, set to trip at 250v, and it shuts itself down roughly 9.30-3.30 every day. really, it makes you reluctant to use as any major appliances in case you blow them.
Essential Energy say they are going to put a monitor on the box next week, but a three month total timeframe is being talked about. Didn't know we'd become a third world country with unreliable power. Seriously, it's worth having your voltage checked, being way over spec is apparently now really commonplace.

[ThirdDrawerDown]

Hi Hal - our household is blessed with 246 to 252 volts.  Our solution for the stereo has been a Thor PS10.  Expensive but worth it for the peace of mind. As with anything to do with electricity or gas in Australia, you simply can't trust the beggars, so you need to take your own steps to ensure 220v or 240v.

 

Tip: don't use Thor's power board for your 3-pin plugs. Sonically a $10 power board produces a better sound for your stereo.

 

 

 

 

[Hal Saunders]

Hi Hal - our household is blessed with 246 to 252 volts.  Our solution for the stereo has been a Thor PS10.  Expensive but worth it for the peace of mind. As with anything to do with electricity or gas in Australia, you simply can't trust the beggars, so you need to take your own steps to ensure 220v or 240v.
 
Tip: don't use Thor's power board for your 3-pin plugs. Sonically a $10 power board produces a better sound for your stereo.
 
 
 
 

Thanks for that heads up.

[vivianbl]

Three days back, after my solar shutting down, the installer came out and measured 257.6 v at the meter box. Essential Energy were out the next day, which was completely overcast so little solar going into the local grid, and measured 250v, which the guy proclaimed to be okay!
I have three pieces of hifi equipment (preamp, DAC, power amp) nominally rated at 220v, and I'm now reluctant to use the hifi during the day. My solar is, like all of them now, set to trip at 250v, and it shuts itself down roughly 9.30-3.30 every day. really, it makes you reluctant to use as any major appliances in case you blow them.
Essential Energy say they are going to put a monitor on the box next week, but a three month total timeframe is being talked about. Didn't know we'd become a third world country with unreliable power. Seriously, it's worth having your voltage checked, being way over spec is apparently now really commonplace.

Our mains power had increased from 224– 246v in winter to 238- 254v over September/ October (at the power point).

We had our 6.6kw solar panels installed recently and I mentioned this to the installers. They realised that the mains coming in was about 260- 265v and was concerned the inverter would shut down. Apparently if it is over 253v for 10mts it would shut down.

SPAusnet came down very quickly and adjusted the transformer taps - 2 taps down they said. Now I’m getting between 230- 240v at the audio power point. They said that they might have to readjust it up before winter.

[Hal Saunders]

That was a quick response, a guy from Essential Energy only arrived yesterday, checked the voltage again, and had readings of 249v with my solar off and 254 with it on. This was on another overcast day. He said he'd take a look at the local transformer and see how many taps it had, but still no guarantee that they will actually do anything.

[sir sanders zingmore]

Late to this thread. 

Im pretty sure my voltage is too high. Do I take it up with the supplier (United) or the retailer (Alinta)?

[vivianbl]

Late to this thread. 
Im pretty sure my voltage is too high. Do I take it up with the supplier (United) or the retailer (Alinta)?

The supplier attends to the lines and adjusts the transformer. Beware, so mesuppliers can charge for a “ false” call out.