aussievintage Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, mixdown said: I chose the "beginner" grade balls with a blue dot as they are softer and more compliant than the yellow or white dot ones. I thought squash balls relied on the heating of the ball when in use and hence the increase in air pressure making the ball bounce better. The beginner balls show this effect less, the idea being beginners don't thrash the ball as hard so it doesn't get as hot, and so needs more bounce when cold. Not sure which is best for a TT as they obviously will be cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 1 minute ago, mixdown said: Well now I tend to disagree about the importance of the balls being airtight. For this implementation I carefully cut the squash balls in half and glued them to the underside of the chopping board and, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the improvement in definition and image is dramatic. I chose the "beginner" grade balls with a blue dot as they are softer and more compliant than the yellow or white dot ones. They do slightly compress with the TT on the board but only slightly. I was a little concerned about maintaining level after doing this "mod" but I checked with a spirit level in 4 planes and all is well. All I can say is that this technique has worked a treat for me and I would recommend it as a possible solution for anyone who is unable to wall mount a TT shelf. Just go with what works I say!! Thanks for replying. Working solutions are always welcome. The half balls would be airtight if fully glued, and no worries about it moving around. The half ball method was popular in the past, whole balls have been the more popular solution recently. Of course you could try full balls as well and see if it gets even better, but if it works for you now that's great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 12 hours ago, eltech said: I think you missed the point I was making about measurements. Just because an innocent bystander prefers something doesn't make it better. And your point about preamps has nothing to do with motors which is what we were discussing so I'm not sure why you mentioned it. To fully explain why I think your approach is off the mark will take us further off topic and I am happy to continue the discussion via PM or another thread. Suffice it to say at this stage, you can only determine how something will sound by actually listening to it. Theories on how something should sound without being backed up by actual evidence, do not provide anywhere near the same useful guidance as the practical trials conducted by many over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 6 hours ago, mixdown said: Well now I tend to disagree about the importance of the balls being airtight. For this implementation I carefully cut the squash balls in half and glued them to the underside of the chopping board and, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the improvement in definition and image is dramatic. I have no doubt it is, md. But you cannot comment on whether full squash balls would - or would not - sound better until you've actually tried that. I suggest you could keep your-glued-on half squash balls in place as full squash balls (sitting in 2l mail carton tops) would be deeper. 6 hours ago, mixdown said: I chose the "beginner" grade balls with a blue dot as they are softer and more compliant than the yellow or white dot ones. They do slightly compress with the TT on the board but only slightly. I read somewhere (when I was trying out a slate/squash ball setup under my LP12, ~15 years ago - before I moved to a wall shelf) that spring theory says there is an optimum amount of weight per squash ball - which sets how much they compress. So you will notice a difference between different 'dotted' squash balls. You just need to experiment! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaynin Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 44 minutes ago, andyr said: So you will notice a difference between different 'dotted' squash balls. You just need to experiment! I can't be bothered swapping out squash balls, levelling, TT set-up, listening, swapping out squash balls, levelling etc. Please, someone else do this for me...I'm just going for the cheapest ball regardless of the dot colour. Definitely going the full ball though @andyr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankn Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 2 hours ago, andyr said: I have no doubt it is, md. But you cannot comment on whether full squash balls would - or would not - sound better until you've actually tried that. I suggest you could keep your-glued-on half squash balls in place as full squash balls (sitting in 2l mail carton tops) would be deeper. I read somewhere (when I was trying out a slate/squash ball setup under my LP12, ~15 years ago - before I moved to a wall shelf) that spring theory says there is an optimum amount of weight per squash ball - which sets how much they compress. So you will notice a difference between different 'dotted' squash balls. You just need to experiment! Andy It would depend on the elastic properties of the grades of squash balls at room temperature, the combined weight of the tt, arm/cart etc. and type of suspension employed by the tt. The elastic properties of differing grade squash balls at room temperature is very small. I suspect the biggest difference would be in the number of squash balls used as there will be an optimum compression of the balls where the absorption/isolation is the greatest. This cannot be determined without double-blind tests! lots of work gents. Also, would using 1l caps instead of 2l caps change the result? So many variables. LOL. Enjoy your tinkering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaynin Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 2 hours ago, frankn said: It would depend on the elastic properties of the grades of squash balls at room temperature, the combined weight of the tt, arm/cart etc. and type of suspension employed by the tt. The elastic properties of differing grade squash balls at room temperature is very small. I suspect the biggest difference would be in the number of squash balls used as there will be an optimum compression of the balls where the absorption/isolation is the greatest. This cannot be determined without double-blind tests! lots of work gents. Also, would using 1l caps instead of 2l caps change the result? So many variables. LOL. Enjoy your tinkering. Stop it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixdown Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 All interesting stuff but I'll be sticking with what I've done for now. I know that works............. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batty Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Would 3 points of suspension be better than 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 only ever need 3 points to suspend anything unless there is a risk of knocking over all rega come with only 3 feet for this reason to the OP good that have achieved an end that works for you. a mother option would have been to buy uprated rega feet they use on their more upmarket TTs below is what rega use for p7/p8/p9 can likely see why half squash balls work other thing I myself must get around to do with my rega is a wall mount ... in any case sounds like you are happy ... which is the important thing ... which ever ways you got there ps people talking about full squash balls... wouldnt work with rega's I dont think...not enough weight...also unsure on the wobbly footings aspect of the squash balls. the more rigid rubber footings on my p9 seem to work pretty well, no issues of soft bass or anything here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 hours ago, mixdown said: All interesting stuff but I'll be sticking with what I've done for now. I know that works............. So you're not interested in optimal - simply 'good enough', md? 32 minutes ago, al said: ps people talking about full squash balls... wouldnt work with rega's I dont think...not enough weight...also unsure on the wobbly footings aspect of the squash balls. The point of squash balls is that you use them under a heavy slab of something inert - like a concrete paver (inexpensive) or slate (more expensive - but better looking). Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 30 minutes ago, andyr said: The point of squash balls is that you use them under a heavy slab of something inert - like a concrete paver (inexpensive) or slate (more expensive - but better looking). have to take the paradigm of high mass tables and chuck them in the bin when comes to rega Rega is about Stiff, Light and Rigid for anyone suggesting heavy slabs etc... repeat after me ... Stiff ... Light ...and Rigid do you see anywhere where high mass heavy slabs and such fit in the above mantra ... they dont... and why rega instead suggests a Stiff, Light and Rigid wall bracket instead. they are the formula 1 of turn tables... not your nascar muscle car alternatives ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, al said: take your paradigm of high mass tables and chuck them in the bin when comes to rega Rega is about Stiff, Light and Rigid repeat after me ... Stiff ... Light ...and Rigid do you see anywhere where high mass heavy slabs and such fit in the above mantra ... they dont... and why rega instead suggests a Stiff, Light and Rigid wall bracket instead. they are the formula 1 of turn tables... not your nascar muscle car alternatives ! You could always take your stiff light rigid rega and put it on top on of a high mass slab. That's the formula one running on a big smooth racetrack, and that'll be better than a rough back street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, aussievintage said: You could always take your stiff light rigid rega and put it on top on of a high mass slab. That's the formula one running on a big smooth racetrack, and that'll be better than a rough back street. last time I looked my rega wasnt running around the house or down smooth racetracks or rough back streets ! it tends to sit there beings it Stiff, Light and Rigid self 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DarkNark Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 hour ago, al said: only ever need 3 points to suspend anything unless there is a risk of knocking over ......... option would have been to buy uprated rega feet they use on their more upmarket TTs below is what rega use for p7/p8/p9 Just looks like P3 feet with added bling to put the price up 4x. Does anyone know if the rubber is different? Photo of P3 standard feet for reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, DarkNark said: Just looks like P3 feet with added bling to put the price up 4x. Does anyone know if the rubber is different? Photo of P3 standard feet for reference. you miss the shrounds and added support they bring. its not all about bling. infant the rega's about as bling free as TTs as they come quite purporse built, never heard of anyone accuse rega of bling of course they will cost more as parts... its why you will hear over and over people say if you want the better bits on the regas ...instead of buying them and adding them to your TT go up a model and get them included.... not to suggest to buy and sell a TT for new feet but there is more to the rega TTs as go up the ranks, with plinths, arms, platters, sub platters ..motors ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DarkNark Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 ^^^^ Ok I also notice that the rubber section of feet are turned the opposite way. I wonder if that has anything to do with the improvements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 40 minutes ago, DarkNark said: ^^^^ Ok I also notice that the rubber section of feet are turned the opposite way. I wonder if that has anything to do with the improvements just have to be turned around so encased by the shrouds for the added support I think. just bare rubber possibly they wobble around a bit. the casing giving a bit of rigidity ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DarkNark Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, al said: just have to be turned around so encased by the shrouds for the added support I think. just bare rubber possibly they wobble around a bit. the casing giving a bit of rigidity ? Makes sense. I guess the rubber is the same and it's just the aluminium "shroud" that changes the "properties" of the rubber. I may have to fire up the lathe and see what I can come up with. Cheapskate that I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, DarkNark said: Makes sense. I guess the rubber is the same and it's just the aluminium "shroud" that changes the "properties" of the rubber. I may have to fire up the lathe and see what I can come up with. Cheapskate that I am. For whet it’s worth, these are all little (small fry) in scheme of things .. but they do overall add positively to end result abd no doubt why rega builds in along with other stuff as go up their product range ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, al said: have to take the paradigm of high mass tables and chuck them in the bin when comes to rega Rega is about Stiff, Light and Rigid for anyone suggesting heavy slabs etc... repeat after me ... Stiff ... Light ...and Rigid Two points: there is a difference between a high-mass TT ... and a Rega - or LP12, for that matter. The 2 latter are low-mass TTs. yes, both of them like a "Stiff, Light and Rigid" stand - wall stand if possible but if that is not a possiblility (bcoz you're renting, say) then the IKEA 'Lack' table is beloved of LP12 owners ... and back in the late 70s, someone in Melbourne came out with the 'Dekstand' (which I used under my LP12 for a while). But even if the TT is on a stiff light rigid stand - this has to rest on something (if it's not a wall stand)! And I suggest a slate slab with (whole) squash balls under it is a good option ... if you don't have the several $000 for a "Vibraplane". Quote they are the formula 1 of turn tables... not your nascar muscle car alternatives ! Haha - as someone who used to drink the Linn coolaid ... to me a Rega is, at best, a "Formula 0.5" - and put together on a beer budget, at that! Absolutely not a 'muscle car' equivalent! 5 hours ago, aussievintage said: You could always take your stiff light rigid rega and put it on top on of a high mass slab. That's the formula one running on a big smooth racetrack, and that'll be better than a rough back street. At least you understand, av! Andy Edited November 13, 2018 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_mike Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Does the light, stiff shelf have to be attached to a light, stiff wall? If not, I dont see what difference a heavy slab would make. The table is still a light, stiff structure. I don't know if I'm being offered Rega cool-aide or snake oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 I'm not sure there's one solution that's always the case... it depends on the cabinet and the floor. In a lot of cases today, the cabinets seem to be heavy and weighed down with other equipment and LPs. The mass is already there, so a lighter support is more likely to work. The same applies to a light table which is better on a solid floor than a suspended wooden one: and the wall shelf which works better on a hard solid wall. An empty 1960s display cabinet on a 1930s wooden floor - then you'll likely need the slab... and a suspended deck as well. That sort of approach was my general guide... and there were still exceptions. Japanese belt drive decks with small spring suspension, like the cheap Pioneers and the Trio 1033 I had, tended to work better with cotton reels under them than squash balls when sat on a sideboard. I wish I knew the physics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 2 hours ago, andyr said: Two points: there is a difference between a high-mass TT ... and a Rega - or LP12, for that matter. The 2 latter are low-mass TTs. yes, both of them like a "Stiff, Light and Rigid" stand - wall stand if possible but if that is not a possiblility (bcoz you're renting, say) then the IKEA 'Lack' table is beloved of LP12 owners ... and back in the late 70s, someone in Melbourne came out with the 'Dekstand' (which I used under my LP12 for a while). But even if the TT is on a stiff light rigid stand - this has to rest on something (if it's not a wall stand)! And I suggest a slate slab with (whole) squash balls under it is a good option ... if you don't have the several $000 for a "Vibraplane". I am not sure why you are bringing your Linns into the equation. they are a suspended design, quite a bit different to the Rega's who defy the need for a sprung suspended design approach that linn has taken. you dont have to make every turntable into a linn suspended table... suspended on quash balls in this case . And certainly lack is very effective.... the light and rigid design of the lacks has shown too that the rega approach can make some good sense with even a linn 2 hours ago, andyr said: Haha - as someone who used to drink the Linn coolaid ... to me a Rega is, at best, a "Formula 0.5" - and put together on a beer budget, at that! Absolutely not a 'muscle car' equivalent! welcome to the linn koolaid sorry you overdosed on it I am not sure why the rega put down was necessary.... ? give you benefit of the doubt.... perhaps you mis understood my post and in absolute entirety. perhaps dont understnad my core point that rega approach is one of stiff light and rigid designs. I have studied mechanics of structures and dynamics to a bachelor level to understand the benefit. and it is indeed very much the formula 1 approach where their cars are stiff light and rigid to the nth degree... this is very much poles apart to say the nascar approach of what are quite large heavy cars with large capacity engines and the chasis nothing like the stiff, light and rigid designs of formula one cars. if your going down the track of whose TT is the most stiff and rigid or something ... sorry not a game I am playing or going to get drawn into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 hour ago, t_mike said: Does the light, stiff shelf have to be attached to a light, stiff wall? If not, I dont see what difference a heavy slab would make. The table is still a light, stiff structure. I don't know if I'm being offered Rega cool-aide or snake oil. has to be attached to some solid structure... no real point if its flapping around in the breeze one of the benefits of the wall mount is its also effectively ... off floor... disregarding any floor effects... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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