Disappointed

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

On 05/11/2018 at 2:57 PM, mixdown said:

Interesting discussion I seem to have started! Yes, the Ortofon Blue is a little deeper than the Rega types but it does sound a lot better.....and I've added a 2mm spacer to get the VTA just about right. Tracking weight is right in the middle in the recommended range and the whole shebang has been set up carefully using the Rega protractor. Interestingly, Roy Gandy (aka Mr Rega) believes that the hype around VTA is just that, hype. Interesting read on the subject here - https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html

I'm coming around to the theory that it may be a problem with what the TT is sitting on. As mentioned earlier its on the top of a cabinet that houses the vinyl collection and assorted accessories. Its solid timber but does kinda resemble a big speaker cabinet, albeit its pretty full of vinyl!! I think I might make a sandbox base to decouple the TT from the cabinet. Cant hurt and I can probably make it look pretty cool...my other hobby is making guitars....

VTA has to be a long way off before there's a clear difference. Once it's off far enough, it does become a real problem. As I understand the Rega design, it's made very stiff between the arm base and the bearing (which is good design) and you have to be careful with spacers at the arm base that you don't lose some of that rigidity. Sometimes it's better to live with the VTA being a little out. Still, done now.

 

It's worth experimenting a little with tracking weight, though I don't really think that is your problem here.

 

Yes, the most likely cause is the cabinet it's on. Weight (a sandbox) may make things even worse, though. I'd start with the bamboo chopping board and squash balls as this has been commonly rewarded as successful. If you can accommodate a small, light table  - that would be second best after the unattainable wall shelf, though.

 

As an aside on cartridge comparison, I was reading somewhere that some of the newer MM cartridges have a higher output than traditional. When comparing cartridges, especially older vs newer designs, be sure about level matching, or the newer cartridge will sound "better" in a store comparison - and then overload your older phono stages at home into the bargain.

[Peter_F]

On 05/11/2018 at 11:57 AM, mixdown said:

... its on the top of a cabinet that houses the vinyl collection and assorted accessories. Its solid timber but does kinda resemble a big speaker cabinet, albeit its pretty full of vinyl!! I think I might make a sandbox base to decouple the TT from the cabinet.

3 pages and no pics of the system setup? 

 

The Rega or any turntable will not perform well on this cabinet, a bit like driving a car with the handbrake engaged.  Sandboxs for turntables IME are useless, and will most likely make it sound it worse by sucking the life out of it, and will not decouple it.  

 

Time to consider getting a decent structure that will optimise the Rega or just accept the restraints you've put on it.  

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Peter_F said:

3 pages and no pics of the system setup? 

 

The Rega or any turntable will not perform well on this cabinet, a bit like driving a car with the handbrake engaged.  Sandboxs for turntables IME are useless, and will most likely make it sound it worse by sucking the life out of it, and will not decouple it.  

 

Time to consider getting a decent structure that will optimise the Rega or just accept the restraints you've put on it.  

 

+10!

 

But a slab of something plus full squash balls will isolate a TT.

 

Andy

[mixdown]

Off to Ikea and the sporting goods store then?

[TP1]

On 07/11/2018 at 3:28 AM, andyr said:

 

Then you don't have a 4m 'phono cable' - you have a 4m standard interconnect, between phono stage and preamp/integrated amp.  Which shouldn't be a problem.

 

 

Don't know if you class a Meanwell SMPS 'brick' as a "wall wart" or not - or whether you're just referring to the devices which have 3 mains prongs coming out of them, which plug into a wall socket.  But my experience is that a Meanwell can sound very good if it has an isolating transformer plus hash filter between it and the wall socket.  IOW ... a LPS is not always the best.

 

Andy

 

 

The fact that you need at least an isolation transformer and a filter  says  a lot.  SMPS starts with massive amounts of RFI and EMI that is fed into the components that degrade sound.  Every wall wart does that.    You can try harm minimisation strategies like filters etc but unless you go to the lengths of companies like Halcro and Soulution  which cost mega bucks,  you still end up with crud in the system.  

 

Even most digital guys  have recognised the benefits of using linear power supplies to power their PC based music servers over the standard SMPS.    With analog audio  any crud in the system gets amplified   by a massive amount through the phono, preamp etc. 

 

Mains power improvement strategies  may improve things for SMPS but they will also do so for Linear power  supplies. So using an isolation transformer, or better still a balanced isolating transformer,  and filter between the wall socket and linear power supply will also improve the sound when an LPSU is used. You will always be ahead with a good  LPSU. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Tasso

[andyr]

6 hours ago, Tasso said:

The fact that you need at least an isolation transformer and a filter  says  a lot.  SMPS starts with massive amounts of RFI and EMI that is fed into the components that degrade sound.  Every wall wart does that.    You can try harm minimisation strategies like filters etc but unless you go to the lengths of companies like Halcro and Soulution  which cost mega bucks,  you still end up with crud in the system.  

 

Even most digital guys  have recognised the benefits of using linear power supplies to power their PC based music servers over the standard SMPS.    With analog audio  any crud in the system gets amplified   by a massive amount through the phono, preamp etc. 

 

Mains power improvement strategies  may improve things for SMPS but they will also do so for Linear power  supplies. So using an isolation transformer, or better still a balanced isolating transformer,  and filter between the wall socket and linear power supply will also improve the sound when an LPSU is used. You will always be ahead with a good  LPSU. 

 

Well, yes, Tasso - that's the "old wive's tale"! 

 

But the results of my experiments tend to give a different conclusion.

 

Experiment #1 was trying different PSes for my TT motor speed controller.  In order of increasing SQ it went:

1. a 48v Meanwell (SMPS).
2. a 48v LPSU (designed by Hugh "Mr AKSA" Dean)
3. a 48v SLA supply
4. the LPSU with an isolating transformer plus hash filter between it and the wall socket
5. the Meanwell with an isolating transformer plus hash filter between it and the wall socket.

So the SMPS (with an isolating transformer plus hash filter between it and the wall socket) "won"!

 

Experiment #2 was trying different PSes for my miniDSP 10x10HD.  In order of increasing SQ it went:

1. a 12v Meanwell
2. a 12v Meanwell with an isolating transformer plus hash filter between it and the wall socket
3. a 12v Sbooster (LPSU).

So the Sbooster "won".

 

Andy

 

[TP1]

 

2 hours ago, andyr said:

Well, yes, Tasso - that's the "old wive's tale"! 

 

But the results of my experiments tend to give a different conclusion.

 

 

Your condescending tone does nothing to hide the contradiction in your comments.  The issue being discussed here is that the PSU powering the phono stage is an SMPS and that a decent linear PSU will make substantial audio gains.   Your experiments with SMPS in the audio chain do not give a different conclusion but in fact prove the point I was making. I quote:

2 hours ago, andyr said:

So the Sbooster "won".

 

In your other example, you talk about turntable motor experiments.   Turntable motors do not in themselves pass power that will be used in the audio chain. The PSU's powering them therefore will have less of a direct impact in the way that they will when powering audio devices directly.     However, SMPS do have inherently higher ripple currents than equivalent LPSU's  which could  translate into less stable rotational accuracy. 

Linear power supplies also have better response time to line and load transients than switching power supplies which again are important considerations for powering turntable motors.

 

These are a couple of the reasons that SMPS are the "basic" PSU's for turntable motors from companies like Origin Live but linear power supplies are their best sounding option.

 

But thats not all, the ability to supply current  - as determined by the ampere  rating of the unit - has a direct impact on turntable performance . Higher current  PSU's  can  usually do it better and things like bass and transients become better defined and more pronounced with high amperage PSU's.  This can also come across as better P.R.A.T.   The "Aksa" PSU doesn't seem to have anywhere near the current rating of the Meanwell SMPS that you were comparing.   I did similar experiments a few years ago where I found that a high current, well made SMPS was really doing wonders for my TT.   I then had a linear PSU custom built with the same  current delivering ability and it  was a clear step up in terms of overall SQ.   You really need to know what parameters you are assessing ,  not just any old LPSU vs SMPS. 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Tasso

[eltech]

I think nobody yet mentioned that the turntable mat can affect the sound quite a bit and trying a different mat could reduce the bass issue. 

[eltech]

3 minutes ago, Tasso said:

However, SMPS do have inherently higher ripple currents than equivalent LPSU's  which could  translate into less stable rotational accuracy. 

How would a very constant  @ 200khz ripple affect a DC motor? 

 

To me, a 100hz ripple of a linear power supply will be more detrimental since it's within the audio frequencies and will directly affect motor speed causing WOW and flutter.

 

I fail to see how a SMPS could be worse. But that's just me.

[eltech]

16 minutes ago, Tasso said:

Linear power supplies also have better response time to line and load transients than switching power supplies which again are important considerations for powering turntable motors.

I respectfully disagree. How much transient response is required for a DC motor spinning at a constant 400 or so RPM? If say the PSU supplies 1A and the DC motor consumes 40mA, then the power supply is very over rated for the job. Transient response doesn't come into the equation.

 

The transient response of the power supply in this instance has no bearing on a DC motor driving a turntable. If the stylus is tracing a heavily modulated groove, the platter will slow. You can't give a motor more current than it wants to consume. It just does what it does.

 

Only a direct drive turntable could possibly be affected by PSU transient response, but even then, there is other circuitry involved, like PLL etc which has far more effect.

Edited November 8, 2018 by eltech

[eltech]

I used a digitally created 50 hz sine wave playing into a power amplifier which output about 12 volts which was run into a mains Transformer running in reverse which stepped up the voltage to 240 volts to power the turntable motor and this provided a very constant speed which was a clearly audible Improvement and reduction in wow and flutter. Nevermind the power supply use a power amp with a precise frequency sine wave if you really care about such things!

Edited November 8, 2018 by eltech

[Grumpy]

Has anyone suggested unplugging the subwoofer and trying both CD and LP just through the speakers ?

 I think l remember reading something many years ago about woofers flapping around because of the recording process even though there was no audible sound  -  surely cant be a good

[andyr]

6 hours ago, Tasso said:

Your condescending tone does nothing to hide the contradiction in your comments.  The issue being discussed here is that the PSU powering the phono stage is an SMPS and that a decent linear PSU will make substantial audio gains.   Your experiments with SMPS in the audio chain do not give a different conclusion but in fact prove the point I was making. I quote:

 

In your other example, you talk about turntable motor experiments.   Turntable motors do not in themselves pass power that will be used in the audio chain. The PSU's powering them therefore will have less of a direct impact in the way that they will when powering audio devices directly.     However, SMPS do have inherently higher ripple currents than equivalent LPSU's  which could  translate into less stable rotational accuracy. 

Linear power supplies also have better response time to line and load transients than switching power supplies which again are important considerations for powering turntable motors.

 

These are a couple of the reasons that SMPS are the "basic" PSU's for turntable motors from companies like Origin Live but linear power supplies are their best sounding option.

 

But thats not all, the ability to supply current  - as determined by the ampere  rating of the unit - has a direct impact on turntable performance . Higher current  PSU's  can  usually do it better and things like bass and transients become better defined and more pronounced with high amperage PSU's.  This can also come across as better P.R.A.T.   The "Aksa" PSU doesn't seem to have anywhere near the current rating of the Meanwell SMPS that you were comparing.   I did similar experiments a few years ago where I found that a high current, well made SMPS was really doing wonders for my TT.   I then had a linear PSU custom built with the same  current delivering ability and it  was a clear step up in terms of overall SQ.   You really need to know what parameters you are assessing ,  not just any old LPSU vs SMPS.

 

Good post, Tasso.    Sorry if you think I was being condescending - that wasn't my intention.

 

And I take your point that if I had used a higher-amperage LPSU ... I might have got a different result with my TT motor speed controller.  Some day, I might just make that experiment. 

 

Andy

 

[TP1]

12 hours ago, eltech said:

 

The transient response of the power supply in this instance has no bearing on a DC motor driving a turntable. If the stylus is tracing a heavily modulated groove, the platter will slow. You can't give a motor more current than it wants to consume. It just does what it does.

 

On one hand, while there may be a limit to what a motor can consume in a given space of time, the average wall wart comes nowhere near to achieving that. Nor would a low wattage LPSU.    In addition, the faster the power can be supplied, the quicker a motor can respond to the load being presented. This might be difficult to measure, but differences are audible. 

 

I, like others,  have experimented extensively with PSU and motors for belt drive TT and  differences can clearly be heard in bass and transients. This occurs when using higher torque motors (obviously), but also when increasing the current available to the motor and using alternate PSU of same rating.  It should be noted that we are not talking about the likes of Continuum or high end Transrotor here, but the average affordable TT  where there is most often room for improvement. 

 

 

[TP1]

6 hours ago, andyr said:

Sorry if you think I was being condescending - that wasn't my intention.

 

I should have realised that.    I need to stay away from less collegial  forums. 

[eltech]

5 hours ago, Tasso said:

 

On one hand, while there may be a limit to what a motor can consume in a given space of time, the average wall wart comes nowhere near to achieving that. Nor would a low wattage LPSU.    In addition, the faster the power can be supplied, the quicker a motor can respond to the load being presented. This might be difficult to measure, but differences are audible. 

 

I, like others,  have experimented extensively with PSU and motors for belt drive TT and  differences can clearly be heard in bass and transients. This occurs when using higher torque motors (obviously), but also when increasing the current available to the motor and using alternate PSU of same rating.  It should be noted that we are not talking about the likes of Continuum or high end Transrotor here, but the average affordable TT  where there is most often room for improvement. 

 

 

Of course. I didn't and won't disagree with your empirical observations. If the original PSU was below par, a measurably lower ripple PSU with some extra current for headroom won't do any harm, and almost certainly will perform and sound better 

[eltech]

5 hours ago, Tasso said:

This might be difficult to measure, but differences are audible. 

The only thing I can say to this is that you probably can measure it using a digital recording of a test record which has a few sine wave tones on the LP, along with some audio analysis software. A measured improvement will show a more constant frequency having been recorded. I advocate also recording the same music before and after any change to varify the change is undoubtedly a real improvement, not just imagination.

[mixdown]

Well, problem solved........a trip to Ikea for their largest and thickest bamboo cutting board and the sporting goods store for squash balls. And this time yes there are pictures! I must say I didn't expect the DRAMATIC difference this "mod" has made. Not only is the bass tighter, deeper and way better controlled but the stereo image has been improved and there is more "air" around both vocals and instruments, but particularly vocals. Right now I'm listening to an old (1980's) Elton John recording and it sounds like he's right here in the room.......bliss!

 

Thank you so much everyone for your discussion, suggestions and wisdom. Its forums like this that make a the internet such a useful resource......

[jgunner]

How do you keep the bamboo plinth from rolling around? Do you puncture the squash ball first before assembling it this way?

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

33 minutes ago, jgunner said:

How do you keep the bamboo plinth from rolling around? Do you puncture the squash ball first before assembling it this way?

No.

it's important that the balls are airtight/solid.

You can put the lid of a two litre milk bottle or similar under each ball to keep it in place, and to be absolutely certain, blutak or glue the balls  or the milk bottle lids in place.

 

I guess the next question, then, is which squash ball is best? There are a few brands of squash ball, each slightly different, and different dots to indicate bounce (and therefore hardness). Maybe harder balls are needed for heavier turntables? - and soft ones will compress, so less likely to roll.

 

I don't have a turntable to try, of course... so it's over to you people who do.

 

Oh, and don't forget to level the turntable again after putting this lot in place!

[TP1]

On 09/11/2018 at 2:44 PM, eltech said:

The only thing I can say to this is that you probably can measure it using a digital recording of a test record which has a few sine wave tones on the LP, along with some audio analysis software. A measured improvement will show a more constant frequency having been recorded. I advocate also recording the same music before and after any change to varify the change is undoubtedly a real improvement, not just imagination.

 

There is no doubt about improvements that different PSU's can bring to a Turntable performance.   

 But the only way anyone can decide whether  there is an audible difference, is by listening. 

 

I always try get bystanders involved who have no idea what components are being changed, and it never ceases to surprise me how well  they can hone in on the sonic differences.  

On 09/11/2018 at 2:35 PM, eltech said:

Of course. I didn't and won't disagree with your empirical observations. If the original PSU was below par, a measurably lower ripple PSU with some extra current for headroom won't do any harm, and almost certainly will perform and sound better 

 

 The approach that "A motor will consume the power it wants to"   is not useful here because the statement assumes all PSU's can deliver the same amount of current of the same quality within the same time-frame. We know that this is not the case. The best PSU for each situation is not usually a known quantity so  it cannot be assumed whether  the one being used is  "Good" or 'Bad".    But a few basic assumptions can be made based upon  PSU design that can give indicators in terms of its ability to deliver  high current quickly and smoothly. 

 

In the context of  phono stage, the quality of the power is of critical importance.  In this case it is safe to say based upon experience and empirical evidence that a well designed linear power supply will always sound better than an SMPS.   

 

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Tasso

[Raffinator]

I continue to be amazed at how the Aptitliq chopping board from Ikea can be used so well.

[crisis]

On 05/11/2018 at 8:43 AM, mixdown said:

HI all. I have a problem I am hoping some of you here might be able to help me with.

 

Last night I played a CD (Tracy Chapman) for the first time in a long time. I usually listen to vinyl. Trouble was, the CD sound was better than the vinyl sound!! Sacrilege!! Main issue was in the bass regions - tighter, more focused drums and bass guitars. Mids and highs are very similar but that bass sound was significantly better. I'm guessing it has to do with the cart/phono pre but I'd be interested to hear what you all think. System is Rega 3/RB300 combo with many mods (24v psu, Tangospinner sub-platter, reference belt and pulley, rubber mat, VTA shim) running an Ortofon Blue through a Musical Fidelity V-LPS phono stage to a Plessis 75WPC amp and out via Cabasse Bora speakers and a Maudant Short sub. CD is a commercial Denon transport with a digital coax connection to a Musical Fidelity D/A converter.

 

Is it time to upgrade the cart and pre-amp? If so, what suggestions do you all have to maintain the sweet and detailed mids/highs whilst getting more punch and focus in the bass end? I've meticulously set up the arm and cartridge so don't think there's any more to be gained from doing that again.

Either spend twice what your CD player cost or just buy CDs. Its not necessary to advocate the virtues of vinyl to enjoy music.

[eltech]

[mention=105453]Tasso[/mention]

 

I think you missed the point I was making about measurements.

 

Just because an innocent bystander prefers something doesn't make it better.

 

 

And your point about preamps has nothing to do with motors which is what we were discussing so I'm not sure why you mentioned it.

 

[mixdown]

15 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

No.

it's important that the balls are airtight/solid.

You can put the lid of a two litre milk bottle or similar under each ball to keep it in place, and to be absolutely certain, blutak or glue the balls  or the milk bottle lids in place.

 

I guess the next question, then, is which squash ball is best? There are a few brands of squash ball, each slightly different, and different dots to indicate bounce (and therefore hardness). Maybe harder balls are needed for heavier turntables? - and soft ones will compress, so less likely to roll.

 

I don't have a turntable to try, of course... so it's over to you people who do.

 

Oh, and don't forget to level the turntable again after putting this lot in place!

Well now I tend to disagree about the importance of the balls being airtight. For this implementation I carefully cut the squash balls in half and glued them to the underside of the chopping board and, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the improvement in definition and image is dramatic. I chose the "beginner" grade balls  with a blue dot as they are softer and more compliant than the yellow or white dot ones. They do slightly compress with the TT on the board but only slightly.

 

I was a little concerned about maintaining level after doing this "mod" but I checked with a spirit level in 4 planes and all is well.

 

All I can say is that this technique has worked a treat for me and I would recommend it as a possible solution for anyone who is unable to wall mount a TT shelf. Just go with what works I say!!