Computer Audio vs One box solution

[holliswhy]

Finally catching up with some hifi news after having a kid. 

 

DARKO and a few threads on Computer Audiophile talked about how they setup their own system. The conclusion I have seen, is that more boxes, better sound. The "ideal" system, from what I can gather is like: Server --> LAN/ Optical cleaner -> Renderer -> USB noise cleaner -> USB/ SPDIF converter -> Master clock -> DAC. 

 

That's like 7 boxes, each doing a "thing" in the chain. 

 

Question is, how does a one box solution, like a Lumin, Naim, Cambridge Audio compare? Are we that far apart in terms of sound, when everything is handled within one box? 

Not sure which path to go down, I like good sound, but I don't like boxes/ complexity. 

 

 

[blybo]

depends on budget.I think Naim, Linn, Hegel, Moon, Devialet all have 1 box integrated amp solutions. The Moon was the best for my situation, but if the Naim unity Star had of been available when I was ready to pull the pin, I may well have gone that way. I had a modified Sonos Connect hooked up to the internal DAC of the Moon when I demo'ed at home and could tell no difference in SQ to the Cullen Sonos Connect which had upgraded clock etc.

 

Now my Moon is currently getting the MiND 2 upgrade and I'll hopefully get that back next week when I get a spare day to pick it up.

[Snoopy8]

 

15 minutes ago, holliswhy said:

Question is, how does a one box solution, like a Lumin, Naim, Cambridge Audio compare? Are we that far apart in terms of sound, when everything is handled within one box? 

Not sure which path to go down, I like good sound, but I don't like boxes/ complexity.

Took the many boxes path, and learned a lot.  It is the easier path to take when starting out, buying cheaper components and upgrading, and putting up with the frustrations and complexity. 

 

Buying a one box solution is simpler, but likely to be much more costly than many boxes to get the same quality. Also, you have to stump up more dollars at the beginning.

 

If you have the budget and know what you want, go one box. Otherwise, take incremental steps..  

[holliswhy]

Thanks gents. I think I will go down 1 box, not a fan of complexity and frsutrations.  

[AudioGeek]

Definitely dont need that many boxes. Probably the sponsors of computer audio forums are promoting all those in between gadgets.

If you want computer audio all you really need is a fanless computer and usb dac. Something like a inexpensive Topping will suffice.

 

[holliswhy]

Apparently, the biggest difference for those guys is when the Server and Renderer is separated. That's something I am ok to try, as the server will also allow me to use Roon in other rooms. 

[a.dent]

6 hours ago, holliswhy said:

Apparently, the biggest difference for those guys is when the Server and Renderer is separated. That's something I am ok to try, as the server will also allow me to use Roon in other rooms. 

This is what I've done.

It represents a better value for money proposition than a single box and really isn't that difficult to set up.

Just use any old PC or Mac you already have lying about the house for the server. Get a good renderer such as SoTM or Sonore.

Then of course you have to run the "software gauntlet". Roon v LMS v iTunes v Audirvana etc.

[holliswhy]

Thanks Gents. All done. NUC i3 + PS Audio DSJ. 

Easy , MQA, and sounds great. No "digital-ness".

[Michael Clarke]

I have 2 systems, an all in one Naim Unitilite with Rega RS5 speakers (cost $4500 +$2000) $6500, separates Vincent Pre / Power 31MK / 331MK with Audio Physic Yara 2 speakers, mac running Audirvana and a iFi Micro DSD BL DAC ( cost $1400+$2400+$2500+$850+$100) $7250, (already own MacBook so not costed) of course Naim Unitilite also includes CD player. Separates leave the all in one a long way behind. Speakers are probably more about taste than performance with APY2 being very clean enough bass for smaller listening room and a good match for valve pre / power vincents. Rega RS5 nice bass in larger room more musical good fit with Naim Unitilite. Audirvana makes a very big difference mostly play Tidal with occasional CD / SACD via CA 650BD. Although Naim has inbuilt Tidal I now use Audirvana via PnP from Mac this means I get 24/ 192 out of the Naim this shows considerable improvement over Naim inbuilt streamer. 

[blakey72]

Nope I can't understand all this Roon stuff. I just go NAS--->Cambridge CXN (Tidal and spotify)--->Power amp In lounge room. PC (Tidal, Spotify, JRiver)--->Schiit Dac--->Amp in bedroom. I don't need Roon do I, just with those 2 systems?

[eltech]

I run an x96 android tv box running Liberec as the server ($50) with a 2tb portable HDD which sends DLNA to my pioneer N50 which outputs SPDIF to my DAC. Excellent sound. I used to use a PC source, but I couldn't get the neutral sound I wanted from it. Perhaps I didn't try hard enough or use the right Gizmos? But I'd tried a few different Gizmos and became tired of it all. Seemed that every week there was a new USB SPDIF converter and it was all becoming a drag. I found contenteness with my current solution. I don't stream.

[Happydogs]

On 1 December 2018 at 12:57 PM, blakey72 said:

Nope I can't understand all this Roon stuff. I just go NAS--->Cambridge CXN (Tidal and spotify)--->Power amp In lounge room. PC (Tidal, Spotify, JRiver)--->Schiit Dac--->Amp in bedroom. I don't need Roon do I, just with those 2 systems?

@blakey72  do you use the CXN as a preamp into a power amp ?

i have a stream magic 6 (SM6) into a integrated, I find its fine to use to trim the volume but with the SM6 volume turned down to much it looses sound quality,  I'm concidering updating to the CXN V2 

 

[Assisi]

There is conundrum with the question of whether to utilise one box or several.  I have tried a number of boxes in the chain and I found that individually some make a contribution.  Collectively though a several boxes together may not ultimately be beneficial.  The more boxes there are the greater the potential for degradation in the final outcome.  For example, as I removed the USB converter, the Regen, the Jitterbug and the galvanic isolator the more the outcome was enhanced for me.  This contrasts with some limited experience with an all in one box approach which was disappointing as there are comprises with what I call the Swiss army knife approach.

 

It comes down to both simplicity and the collective synergy of the boxes in the chain.  If chosen well, a balance between less is probably better than many.  Every situation will depend upon the respective interaction of the various boxes.  At the moment I have a NAS, Network Player, DAC and then Pre etc.  No USB and definitely the most wonderful sound I have so far experienced.  I am not sure that USB is as good as network.

John 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Assisi

[blakey72]

2 hours ago, Happydogs said:

@blakey72  do you use the CXN as a preamp into a power amp ?

i have a stream magic 6 (SM6) into a integrated, I find its fine to use to trim the volume but with the SM6 volume turned down to much it looses sound quality,  I'm concidering updating to the CXN V2 

 

Yeah use it as a digital pre into the Exposure Classic XXVIII. The sound quality doesn't change at all that I've noticed. Seems quite even right through.

[blakey72]

33 minutes ago, Assisi said:

There is conundrum with the question of whether to utilise one box or several.  I have tried a number of boxes in the chain and I found that individually some make a contribution.  Collectively though a several boxes together may not ultimately be beneficial.  The more boxes there are the greater the potential for degradation in the final outcome.  For example, as I removed the USB converter, the Regen, the Jitterbug and the galvanic isolator the more the outcome was enhanced for me.  This contrasts with some limited experience with an all in one box approach which was disappointing as there are comprises with what I call the Swiss army knife approach.

 

It comes down to both simplicity and the collective synergy of the boxes in the chain.  If chosen well, a balance between less is probably better than many.  Every situation will depend upon the respective interaction of the various boxes.  At the moment I have a NAS, Network Player, DAC and then Pre etc.  No USB and definitely the most wonderful sound I have so far experienced.  I am not sure that USB is as good as network.

John 

Yes I agree you can go too far with adding things to the chain. It's only as strong as the weakest link and the more you add, the more chance of adding a weak link. However, the less boxes you have, the more that has to be squeezed into the space. Does this mean quality suffers????

[Assisi]

14 hours ago, blakey72 said:

However, the less boxes you have, the more that has to be squeezed into the space.

@blakey72 Have you inadvertently made a contradiction in the above sentence?  If you have more boxes then there is the matter of squeezing them all into the available space.  Less boxes means less need for squeezing to me. 

Also I agree on the matter of the weak link in the chain.  I listened to a friend's system the other day.  Something definitely wasn't right despite the quality of the major components.  There were several other add-ins.  My suggestion was to take out everything that was not essential and start again.  Then progressively introduce the various other bits until the culprit for the decline could be identified.

John

[blakey72]

5 hours ago, Assisi said:

@blakey72 Have you inadvertently made a contradiction in the above sentence?  If you have more boxes then there is the matter of squeezing them all into the available space.  Less boxes means less need for squeezing to me. 

Also I agree on the matter of the weak link in the chain.  I listened to a friend's system the other day.  Something definitely wasn't right despite the quality of the major components.  There were several other add-ins.  My suggestion was to take out everything that was not essential and start again.  Then progressively introduce the various other bits until the culprit for the decline could be identified.

John

Hi John. Yeah that wasn't said very well. I was saying the less boxes there are, the more internal components there are that need to fit inside one box.

 

So I was just thinking would quality suffer due to just not physically being able to fit big power supplies etc. Into one box. I could be totally off track. 

[HypnoToad]

I have an old PC, DAC, Stereo Amp, Speakers and the sound is awesome. Keep it simple IMO.

[Primare Knob]

I haven't found an area where there is more BS than with computer audio.

The chance that you buy some point less gadget are about 95%.

Sofar I haven't found a difference in software gadgets, players, power supplies, dedicated headless streamers, file formats, etc.

What I use are old PC's or laptops connected with a basic USB cable to a DAC , either straight into a power amp or an integrated amp.

You really don't need much to get great sound and detail. The only tweaks you should use are the ones that secure a proper playback without glitches or stuttering, and easy control.

[roh008]

I have a basic set up and I felt the addition of my audiophillieo between the PC USB and DAC helped a decent amount. However, I find running EQ correction provides most improvement. As I don’t listen in a recording studio but in my lounge. So my next purchase will be to simplify the integration between streaming music from local storage and TIDAL, Spotify etc. while keeping the ability to EQ the sound from JRiver.

 

I still feel if you want to change the sound the most impact will be to change speakers. Then add EQ to taste. After that everything else is “the hobby”.

 

If you want to dabble with other components there is no problem but the gains will probably be a couple of percent and only really heard when listening intently rather than casual listening(ie surfing StereoNET)

 

[rixthetrick]

I went down the fanless PC setup.

• Streacom ST-FC8S-ALPHA-OPT Fanless Chassis
• N3150DC-ITX (6 Watts TDP) rated at 1.6 GHz base clock and turbo clock of 2.08 GHz
• HDPLEX 200W Linear Power Supply
• JCAT FEMTO USB card
• SSD

I use Curious Cables USB to my Gieseler M17D - Groß DAC, and I've been using Lenehan Audio's Ribbonflex single ended interconnects.
As I've just purchased a really good balanced amplifier to replace my 20 year old Rotel (I had it a long time, time to move on)
I am moving over to Lenehan Audio Ribbonflex XLR interconnects.

First thing I bought was the JCAT USB and put it in a PC (standard one with fans and spinning drives etc)
And then slowly incrementally researched what to buy next, it's a great learning experience.
Next I am looking at the software to finally get the most from my research time and money investment.

Win Server 2019 with AO 3.00 at the moment looks to be the way I am headed.

I've heard quite a bit of gear come through Lenehan Audio's factory, as I have worked for Mike a few times over the years.
And there's been some amazing streamers and technologies, even the 'lil old Mac Mini surprised me when I first heard of it.
Often the streamers and PC's would change lead in the race to the best sound. So for me, there's no absolute answer on that one.
It's always evolution.

[Steever]

Gee, here's me thinking my Mac Mini playing Tidal Masters via Audirvana and AudioQuest optical into my Cyrus pre sounds the beez neez.

 

All this other stuff is totally over my head.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Winno

[trigun74]

Having a NAS is a whole different world

[cazzesman]

I think it is really about what and how you listen to music.

 

For me listening is purely an Album at a time.  No music streaming sites or Internet radio.

 

I am really starting to minimalise my system now.    DIY Music PC into Mutec reclocker into Active speakers with DSP.   Simple chain, where not much can go wrong.     I think I am getting my head around what I like and how I want to hear it.     

 

Getting the Mutec a few years back meant I could start to get rid of other various add ons.      The Isolation Transformer I added also helped establish a constant and clean power supply.      Quality Active Speakers certainly saves money in the long run.     Actives with DSP are the future for mine.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[POV]

2 hours ago, cazzesman said:

I think it is really about what and how you listen to music.

 

For me listening is purely an Album at a time.  No music streaming sites or Internet radio.

 

I am really starting to minimalise my system now.    DIY Music PC into Mutec reclocker into Active speakers with DSP.   Simple chain, where not much can go wrong.     I think I am getting my head around what I like and how I want to hear it.     

 

Getting the Mutec a few years back meant I could start to get rid of other various add ons.      The Isolation Transformer I added also helped establish a constant and clean power supply.      Quality Active Speakers certainly saves money in the long run.     Actives with DSP are the future for mine.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

That's interesting.  I consider internet radio and Tidal to be total game changers for me.  That's not to say don't sit down and listen to album, I do, but the suggested playlists from Tidal, and a selection of high bitrate internet radio stations has uncovered more new music to me than anything else I've ever encountered.  I absolutely love both and wouldn't wnat them not to be part of my world.

 

Don't think that the two approaches need to be mutually exclusive either.  I just added a Bluesoud node 2i and run that into my DAC via coax and it sounds great using airplay 2 via tidal and tunein apps.  I'm dabbling with the idea of upgrading to NAD M50.2 to take to another level, but this is a luxury, with the Node 2i can affordably add to the system. 

 

If feel like listening to whole albums generally just fire up the CD player in main system.  Both approaches are great, and having flex to do both allows for mood.

Edited July 26, 2019 by POV