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shazza6887

Room Accoustic Treatment Theatre Room DIY preffered (NOOB)

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Hi All,

 

I am about to start contruction of my new home and wanted to start building some panels in my spare time for the  accoustic treatment.

 

There is so much info out there and alot of it pertains to the U.S market re materials etc.

 

Some basic info.

Room is going to be 4mx5m Height 2.5-2.7 (Screen Size permitting)

Carpeted

Window is going to be on the projector screen wall. Had to do this to comply with building codes etc. My plan is to put a shutter on it, put some foam on the window and then install the projector screen over it, blocking it off.

 

Speakers are Klipsch RP260s for fronts RP 440 centre, RP 240s for side and rear surrounds and some half decent speakers (cheaper, for atmos ceiling speakers)

Screen size will be either 120 inch which will leave me about 57cm on each side or a 130inch screen which will leave about 47cm on each side.

 

Going to run 2x Klipsh RP R112 SW subs at the front next to centre channel.

 

What options should i be looking at?

Some bass traps? If so Superchunk triangle corner style or square soffit style? It seems they need to be fairly large to make it count.

 

Some absorption panels, if so what material, rigid fibreglass, rockwool, density, where to purchase  etc?

 

Diffusion panels nessasary? I could make those skyline ones but it seems you need fairly large rooms to make those count?

 

Doing some research it seems that to much absorption is not a good thing? I have seen some people put panels on the sides and bottoms  of thier projector screens and then another one next to it near the first reflection points.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated :)

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Did you buy the klipsch just now or from your previous set up? I am looking at very similar ht.

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I would look at room design/construction first - building acoustic panels comes much later once you know what acoustic issues require treating in the room.

 

Is isolation/sound proofing a requirement? If it is (and it should be), then this can only be addressed during construction - you can't change isolation/sound proofing significantly once the room is built.

Read every bit of info on this site:

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/

 

Any dedicated HT room should be constructed along the guidelines in the link above.

 

Unfortunately isolation/sound proofing tends to work against achieving good bass inside the room, as isolation/sound proofing keeps bass in the room rather than letting it out.

 

IMHO every room benefits from treatment targeting the lower frequencies, but rooms achieving good isolation/sound proofing may require additional treatment in the lower frequencies as low bass can't "leak" out so remains bouncing around inside the room.

 

Paul Spencer's Bass Integration Guides are useful - part 1 linked below

https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/

 

On 29/10/2018 at 10:37 PM, shazza6887 said:

What options should i be looking at?

Some bass traps? If so Superchunk triangle corner style or square soffit style? It seems they need to be fairly large to make it count.

As you've said, to trap bass with absorption, they need to be large - Superchunk or soffit will both work

 

On 29/10/2018 at 10:37 PM, shazza6887 said:

Doing some research it seems that to much absorption is not a good thing?

Too much absorption chops out the top end (absorbs too much treble).

 

IMHO, target room treatment at absorbing lower frequencies to get the bass right as the first priority (absorption straddling corners or soffit traps) - minimal treble will be absorbed using this approach.

Once you've got the bass under control, if you've killed the treble you can bring it back with slats or builders plastic over the absorption

 

On 29/10/2018 at 10:37 PM, shazza6887 said:

Diffusion panels nessasary?

worry about that later - diffusion is fine tuning - IMHO getting the bass right is way more important.

If you've managed to get the bass right without killing the treble then IMHO you can stop there.

 

Once you hear a setup with clean/tight/dry bass - you're hooked - and most other setups sound boomy/bloated in the bottom end.

 

cheers

Mike

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36 minutes ago, almikel said:

I would look at room design/construction first - building acoustic panels comes much later once you know what acoustic issues require treating in the room.

 

Is isolation/sound proofing a requirement? If it is (and it should be), then this can only be addressed during construction - you can't change isolation/sound proofing significantly once the room is built.

Read every bit of info on this site:

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/

 

Any dedicated HT room should be constructed along the guidelines in the link above.

 

Unfortunately isolation/sound proofing tends to work against achieving good bass inside the room, as isolation/sound proofing keeps bass in the room rather than letting it out.

 

IMHO every room benefits from treatment targeting the lower frequencies, but rooms achieving good isolation/sound proofing may require additional treatment in the lower frequencies as low bass can't "leak" out so remains bouncing around inside the room.

 

Paul Spencer's Bass Integration Guides are useful - part 1 linked below

https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/

 

As you've said, to trap bass with absorption, they need to be large - Superchunk or soffit will both work

 

Too much absorption chops out the top end (absorbs too much treble).

 

IMHO, target room treatment at absorbing lower frequencies to get the bass right as the first priority (absorption straddling corners or soffit traps) - minimal treble will be absorbed using this approach.

Once you've got the bass under control, if you've killed the treble you can bring it back with slats or builders plastic over the absorption

 

worry about that later - diffusion is fine tuning - IMHO getting the bass right is way more important.

If you've managed to get the bass right without killing the treble then IMHO you can stop there.

 

Once you hear a setup with clean/tight/dry bass - you're hooked - and most other setups sound boomy/bloated in the bottom end.

 

cheers

Mike

Mike thanks for all the info,

 

I will be using acoustic insolation for all the walls and ceiling of the room behind the plaster wall,

 

As i said the only window in the room i am going to have double glazed and stick foam wedges on it before mounting the projector screen on it!

 

I am thinking of making trip corner traps for all 4 of the corners using Bradfords Ultratel 48kg (Board instead of blanket) The face of the corner super chunk will be 60cm and the depth about 40cm or so, i will cut the insulation into triangles and stack them up. I plan on making them in 1.2m pieces so stacking 2 ontop of each other in the corners

 

The trap will most likely have a base and top about 1cm thick most likely mdf and then wrapped with a breathable fabric.

 

Let me know what you think

 

Shane

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4 minutes ago, shazza6887 said:

I will be using acoustic insolation for all the walls and ceiling of the room behind the plaster wall

so isolation clips and multiple layers of gyprock with green glue?

 

7 minutes ago, shazza6887 said:

for all 4 of the corners

there are 20 corners in a rectangular room to consider for treatment:

  • 8 tri corners
  • 4 wall/wall corners
  • 4 wall/floor corners
  • 4 wall/ceiling corners

Note that at the boundaries, pressure is maximum, but velocity is minimum

Absorption works on velocity, so the absorption further away from the boundary is doing most of the work for lower frequencies (max velocity is wavelength/4 from the boundary).

 

21 minutes ago, shazza6887 said:

The face of the corner super chunk will be 60cm

I would regard 600mm wide the absolute minimum width for corner straddling absorption expected to operate at lower frequencies. 1000mm or 1200mm wide is better.

 

25 minutes ago, shazza6887 said:

The trap will most likely have a base and top about 1cm thick most likely mdf

why? that stops sound energy getting to the top and bottom of the absorption.

Build whatever frame you want to hold the absorption in place, but leave as much absorption as possible exposed (covered in fabric as required) to absorb sound.

 

Ultratel and any other fibreglass insulation product will work fine

I gave up using fibreglass a long time ago. Poly works nearly as well, only needs covering for aesthetics, isn't horrible itchy stuff, but is harder to cut than fibreglass.

 

Bang for buck, the fluffy density works well, but you need more. The popular product is Polymax XHD (48kg/m^3), but expensive

 

Mike

 

 

 

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On 29/10/2018 at 11:37 PM, shazza6887 said:

Window is going to be on the projector

 

Depending on your isolation plan, per Mike's comments above, I'd just build a permanent "plug" to go over it. Have the window tinted with the darkest most reflective tint you can find. Then build a plywood "plug" (say 2 or 3 layers of ply with GG in between) and screw that in. Then seal around the edge with an acoustic caulk (I like the green glue one, its great to work with)

 

If you're doing the room property, I'd put the "plug" on the walls, so it doesn't touch the window/frame.

 

You want the double glazed window to have thermal breaks - they work as acoustic isolators 

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11 hours ago, almikel said:

I would look at room design/construction first - building acoustic panels comes much later once you know what acoustic issues require treating in the room.

 

Is isolation/sound proofing a requirement? If it is (and it should be), then this can only be addressed during construction - you can't change isolation/sound proofing significantly once the room is built.

Read every bit of info on this site:

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/

 

Any dedicated HT room should be constructed along the guidelines in the link above.

 

Unfortunately isolation/sound proofing tends to work against achieving good bass inside the room, as isolation/sound proofing keeps bass in the room rather than letting it out.

 

IMHO every room benefits from treatment targeting the lower frequencies, but rooms achieving good isolation/sound proofing may require additional treatment in the lower frequencies as low bass can't "leak" out so remains bouncing around inside the room.

 

Paul Spencer's Bass Integration Guides are useful - part 1 linked below

https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/

 

As you've said, to trap bass with absorption, they need to be large - Superchunk or soffit will both work

 

Too much absorption chops out the top end (absorbs too much treble).

 

IMHO, target room treatment at absorbing lower frequencies to get the bass right as the first priority (absorption straddling corners or soffit traps) - minimal treble will be absorbed using this approach.

Once you've got the bass under control, if you've killed the treble you can bring it back with slats or builders plastic over the absorption

 

worry about that later - diffusion is fine tuning - IMHO getting the bass right is way more important.

If you've managed to get the bass right without killing the treble then IMHO you can stop there.

 

Once you hear a setup with clean/tight/dry bass - you're hooked - and most other setups sound boomy/bloated in the bottom end.

 

cheers

Mike

Great post. 

 

My thoughts:

I'm planning on building a dedicated room with clips + hat channel + double dry-wall with green glue in between (not room-in-room). I've been wondering just how much bass absorption I need too and am thinking of implementing the following (but I don't really know if it's too much):
    - baffle wall behind AT screen (http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322baffle-walls/). This can be deep enough (>=30cm; if you can't go at least 30cm use 45kg/m3) to use fluffy insulation and cover the entire front wall.
    - riser filled with fluffy
    - 4 inches of 45kg/m3 insulation (ultratel or polymax XHD) on the back wall with some kind of facing to reflect higher frequencies (link below)
    - floor-to-ceiling (or under face of soffit) 45kg/m3 superchunks straddling rear corners (maybe?)
    - soffits filled with fluffy (just the parts without AC duct in it which will be minimal)

 

I've been researching this for about a year now and the old one-size-fits-all treatment plan seemed to be, floor-to-ceiling absorption on the first 1/3 of the room and floor-to-ear-height absorption for the remaing (or something like that). That now seems to have evolved to something more like this which I plan to use (OC703 is American for Ultratel): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/3021830-too-much-acoustic-treatment.html#/topics/3021830?page=1

 

Edited by br0d0

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As the title says i am pretty noob at this so all this stuff is really advanced for me...

 

Below is the draft of the room,

 

With the window i was going to get a roller shutter on it and just have it double glazed and put some accoustic foam on the inside. 1, i dont want to effect re saleability of the house as i dont know if i will live here for ever, 2 still dont know what i am doing and the builder is pretty oldschool and they wont understand much neither. They might understand if i tell them to install the window with a thermal break?

 

I appreciate you guys are giving me your time and knowledge but you must understand i am already delving into a level here that 90% of people wouldnt... When you go to big picture people they never tell you about all this stuff etc.. so for me this is pretty advanced stuff :)

 

With this below plan i am going double stud wall so i can do 2x layers of accoustic insulation and the Plan says we are going with two layers of plaster and i can put the Green Glue between. Can anyone tell me where i could source it? Does the cieling also need double plaster with GG in between? I dont want to get really technical with decoupling hats etc.

 

With the Bass traps i could do an open triangle frame on the top and bottom if that sounds better? i appriciate that there are multiple area to put the traps but i had a hard enough time convinving the other half to let me use 600mm traps in all corners let alone extend it accros the ceiling 20 points etc, i am sure i am still going to get a very nice noticible improvment going with my humble project intentions? I was planning to put a couple of 50mm thick panels at first reflection points and 2x clouds all of these infront of the listening positions. On the rear wall directly in the centre i was planning on doing a really thick bass trap panel or 2 more panels with some DIY scatter plates similiar in design from Gik acoustics out of 5mm MDF, these would give the room a nice look 2!

 

But as Mike has pointed out, Bass traps may be enough to make the room sound sweet so i may make the plates and not end up using or needing them.

 

I am planning on using a solid wooden door with seals around the perimeter.

 

Note i have decided not to go with a bulkhead and just go standard 2.5m ceiling.

 

Please tell me what you think

 

Shane

 

image.png.ec452224b69cb11e820c3456360d747c.png

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15 hours ago, shazza6887 said:

They might understand if i tell them to install the window with a thermal break?

This isn't a question for the builder, its the people making the window.

 

Get on AVS and search for "Window Plugs" - forget the foam, complete waste of time. You want/need to board it over, otherwise all your other efforts are a complete waste.

 

Quote

Can anyone tell me where i could source it? Does the cieling also need double plaster with GG in between? I dont want to get really technical with decoupling hats et

Buy GG here - https://foamsealant.com.au/

 

You have two choices (well three) with the ceiling:

1. Do nothing and it'll negate all other efforts

2. clip and channel it - cheapest and easiest I suspect

3. drop the ceiling height 25mm and run a second set of ceiling joists, so that the wall and ceiling frame of the room doesn't contact the rest of the house

 

You need to read the soundproofingcompany.com website word for word. Any half measures will make the entire effort a waste of time. Its all or nothing. I say nothing, as you'll be wasting your money.

 

Have a squizz at the thread on my signature - the last few pages explain the detail of how to do it, with photos

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On 08/11/2018 at 8:21 AM, Peter the Greek said:

I'd just build a permanent "plug" to go over it. Have the window tinted with the darkest most reflective tint you can find. Then build a plywood "plug" (say 2 or 3 layers of ply with GG in between) and screw that in. Then seal around the edge with an acoustic caulk (I like the green glue one, its great to work with)

 

23 hours ago, shazza6887 said:

1, i dont want to effect re saleability of the house as i dont know if i will live here for ever,

PtG's suggestion won't affect resale - you can just remove it, patch and paint.

 

8 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

You need to read the soundproofingcompany.com website word for word

+1 :thumb:

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

Does the cieling also need double plaster with GG in between? I dont want to get really technical with decoupling hats etc.

Here's a more direct link that specifically looks at ceilings

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/building-a-room-within-a-room/

scroll down to "How about that ceiling framing?"

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

I dont want to get really technical with decoupling hats etc

As PtG says, likely the cheapest option

 

9 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Any half measures will make the entire effort a waste of time.

the elephant in the room is "Flanking Noise"

Again from the same site

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/flanking-and-indirect-sound-leaks/

 

PtG has much more experience than I do in building rooms for isolation - I've built 1 room (not my own) - a home recording studio - with multi layers of Fyrecheck with GG between, offset studs (not double studs), resilient clips on the ceiling - the isolation is OK, not great - the timber floor is likely the weak point and is common across the studio and the rest of the house - a difficult flanking path to avoid with timber floors - concrete slab is much better in this respect.

 

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

use 600mm traps in all corners let alone extend it accros the ceiling 20 points etc, i am sure i am still going to get a very nice noticible improvment going with my humble project intentions?

Floor to ceiling 600mm wide traps in all 4 wall/wall corners will help clean up 125-500Hz nicely.

 

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

I was planning to put a couple of 50mm thick panels at first reflection points

This will change the spectral balance of your sidewall first reflections compared to the direct sound from the speakers - you'll absorb lots of treble and no bass - so the direct sound will be full range, and the sidewall reflections will have less treble.

Plenty of smart people - Toole, Geddes, etc consider this a bad thing - but only if the "off axis" response of your speakers is nice and smooth.

Try it and see if you like it...as I said above, my focus for treatment is on the bass frequencies first, so sidewall reflections is not something I would treat first.

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

2x clouds all of these infront of the listening positions.

Great idea - damping ceiling reflections (different from lateral sidewall reflections) is good.

 

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

On the rear wall directly in the centre i was planning on doing a really thick bass trap panel

 concentrate on straddling corners for bass traps if using absorption (remember lots of options with corners).

 

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

DIY scatter plates similiar in design from Gik acoustics out of 5mm MDF

Diffusion has some compromises - the key one being you can't sit too close - if you have a decent distance between the diffuser and the listening position then they're great.

 

On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

But as Mike has pointed out, Bass traps may be enough to make the room sound sweet so i may make the plates and not end up using or needing them

This is just my opinion - but I stand by it - get the bass right (not easy), and IME other treatments are "icing on the cake".

My stereo room is a lightly constructed spare room downstairs and leaks bass like a sieve - all living areas are upstairs. It has loads of absorption, no diffusion, and no isolation.

 

The bass is fantastic, but the rest of the family and the neighbourhood hears when my wife or I crank the stereo, and the ambient noise in the room never gets below 30-35dB SPL.

 

Well isolated rooms can get to 20dB SPL ambient noise - a massive difference.

 

cheers

Mike

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Looking at the options for ceiling treatment it seems alot of these are towards two storey homes?

 

Mine is a single story. Which option out of the three solutions would be the easiest/cost effective for my situation?

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"With the window i was going to get a roller shutter on it and just have it double glazed and put some accoustic foam on the inside."

When I did my room I read somewhere that thicker glass was more effective in blocking sound transmission than double glazing. It was worked out cheaper and if you are plugging the window with insulation, the additional cost may not be warranted?

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10 hours ago, cdave said:

"With the window i was going to get a roller shutter on it and just have it double glazed and put some accoustic foam on the inside."

When I did my room I read somewhere that thicker glass was more effective in blocking sound transmission than double glazing. It was worked out cheaper and if you are plugging the window with insulation, the additional cost may not be warranted?

Sounds good to me! So did you end up going with thicker glass rather than double glazing? Did you get a winodw with thermal breaks? Did you plug the window?

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Yes thicker glass, no thermal breaks , no plugs in a dedicated cinema room.
There are only 2 small windows which are under eaves and have heavy light blocking curtains. So no thermal concerns and the noise is quite well contained. I have considered making up some light plugs out of cardboard or foam. We mostly mostly use the cinema room at night and the light blocking curtains work well, so never got around to it.
Good luck with your room.

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On 08/11/2018 at 5:50 PM, shazza6887 said:

With the window i was going to get a roller shutter on it and just have it double glazed and put some accoustic foam on the inside

The roller shutter will have minimal/no impact on isolation, and potentially add rattles

 

On 12/11/2018 at 2:32 PM, cdave said:

When I did my room I read somewhere that thicker glass was more effective in blocking sound transmission than double glazing

Double glazing is a well established solution to assist with isolation - more typically applied to houses suffering from road noise or houses under an aircraft flight path - it's a respected solution that works.

 

With respect to @cdave, the statement , "I read somewhere that thicker glass was more effective in blocking sound transmission than double glazing" lacks some provenance.

 

In my interweb surfing I've found lots of glazing sites that show sound transmission ratings for different glass combinations - given thicker glass adds mass (one contributor to isolation) it will change sound transmission, but whether it's "better" than double glazing for isolation would be easy to find with Google. 

 

It all comes down to how isolated you need/want your room to end up.

  • Are you under a flight path or have external noise sources to block coming into the room?
  • Do you care about sound leakage out of the room to annoy the neighbours/other household members? 

If you're going to a large amount of effort for the rest of the room, I don't get why you wouldn't plug that window as per PtG's recommendation - it will be a flanking path for sound (in and out) if you don't...

 

...as I said above, I have a leaky room and tolerant family/neighbours - the cops haven't showed up - yet!

 

Achieving decent isolation is a good target to have on a new construction -  but knowing you're building in flanking paths is not a good start...why bother with the considerable expense of the rest of the room?

Just build a normal room (leaky) without isolation and annoy the family/neighbours...hence PtG "all or nothing" statement.

Leaky rooms are much easier to get the bass right - but you'll never get close to 20dB SPL ambient noise.

 

cheers

Mike

 

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2 hours ago, almikel said:

The roller shutter will have minimal/no impact on isolation, and potentially add rattles

 

Double glazing is a well established solution to assist with isolation - more typically applied to houses suffering from road noise or houses under an aircraft flight path - it's a respected solution that works.

 

With respect to @cdave, the statement , "I read somewhere that thicker glass was more effective in blocking sound transmission than double glazing" lacks some provenance.

 

In my interweb surfing I've found lots of glazing sites that show sound transmission ratings for different glass combinations - given thicker glass adds mass (one contributor to isolation) it will change sound transmission, but whether it's "better" than double glazing for isolation would be easy to find with Google. 

 

It all comes down to how isolated you need/want your room to end up.

  • Are you under a flight path or have external noise sources to block coming into the room?
  • Do you care about sound leakage out of the room to annoy the neighbours/other household members? 

If you're going to a large amount of effort for the rest of the room, I don't get why you wouldn't plug that window as per PtG's recommendation - it will be a flanking path for sound (in and out) if you don't...

 

...as I said above, I have a leaky room and tolerant family/neighbours - the cops haven't showed up - yet!

 

Achieving decent isolation is a good target to have on a new construction -  but knowing you're building in flanking paths is not a good start...why bother with the considerable expense of the rest of the room?

Just build a normal room (leaky) without isolation and annoy the family/neighbours...hence PtG "all or nothing" statement.

Leaky rooms are much easier to get the bass right - but you'll never get close to 20dB SPL ambient noise.

 

cheers

Mike

 

I mostly care about not going to war with my neighbours and one day when the baby comes around I can occasionally enjoy my room haha!

 

I think I will go double glaze and just make a frame, fill with the same isolation I will use for the walls and go double plaster board with GG I will seal it with acoustic sealant and if I ever need to sell the house I can just cut it out!

 

For the walls we are going double stud with double insolation, two layers of plaster (10) mm with GG. Do the gaps in the corners need acoustic sealant as well? I assume you just bog up all the panels as per normal before you paint?

 

For the ceiling looks like it will be clips and channel. Again it is a single story house so im still trying to get my head around how the ceiling will be.

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I did my room - long time back and remember my wife was worried that converting a garage would be a issue in regards - future resale but on the end it was sold with in a week anyway posting few pictures 

http://www.jirihifi.com/my_projects_music_room_01.htm

Edited by jkn

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Remember you'll need to deal with hvac too. Cool, and fresh air in/out. Deal vents on everything. A mini split is easiest for cooling if you are worried. Still needs (should) have a fresh air return/supply - dead vented

 

Also, surface mount everything - power points, lights etc

 

Do a double door, one on each frame of the double wall. Perimeter seals all round. Solid core.

 

It goes, ceiling - wall - gg/ceiling- gg/wall. Use acoustic sealant on all gaps for both layers

 

Consider the floor. See what I did, its gold standard. But will raise the height about 25-30mm (angel step with t&g over.

 

 

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If I remember rightly from research over 10 years ago?!
1 thick glass out performed 2 thin pieces of glass. Double glazing with 1 thick and 1 thinner performed best. The frame material / design was also a factor.
Costs may have changed, but back then the thick glass option was significantly cheaper than double glazing for 2 small windows.
We considered gyprocking and insulating over the windows and I suspect it would be more effective than money spent on window upgrades.
I think an insulated window plug could be made to perform very well; possibly better than expensive windows?

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"It goes, ceiling - wall - gg/ceiling- gg/wall"

 

Could you just break that a bit down? Do you mean in order of importance or build?

 

 

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1 hour ago, shazza6887 said:

 

"It goes, ceiling - wall - gg/ceiling- gg/wall"

 

Could you just break that a bit down? Do you mean in order of importance or build?

 

 

Build. Overlapping layers as you go

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9 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Build. Overlapping layers as you go

So once the walls frame is knocked up (double) and the ceiling frame with clips and channel, insulate all of it, then first layer of plaster on ceiling, then first layer of plaster on walls, seal it up with accoustic sealant, GG the plaster for the ceiling, then gg second layer for wall , seal up meeting points of the plaster (corners) then just standard bog for the joints?

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