NAD 758v3 or something else?

[davewantsmoore]

Hi Everyone.   My room is about to be "re-architected" as it morphs from my private speaker-design lab into ... the kids-domain by day, and my music/movie room when ever I'm allowed in there.  Before I throw more hours into my research, perhaps you guys already have all the answers/advice/shortcuts.   To try and keep this short, I have two main questions:

 

• What speaker layout should I go with?
• What AVR should I drive it with?

 

 

Layout

• I have the opportunity to put in any number and location of surround/effect speakers.
• My content is mainly stereo and 5.1 ... and I'd like to up-mix it.
• The room is 7.0m x 4m x 2.3m, with a seating position slightly forward of the room centre. 

 

I'm looking at 7.1.4 ..... but the 'rainbow chaser' in me wonders if wides, heights, vog, and who knows what other franken-layouts, should be a consideration.    What of DTS:X, Auro3D, upmixing?   Should I try for more than atmos 7.1.4?        Aggh?!!! >_<   Which brings me to the next question.

 

 

AVR

• Must be "not flagship" $$$
• I don't need large amounts of power
• I must have preouts for 7.1 as I have active speakers

 

I would like to have:

 

• As many of the effects speakers powered from the AVR (ie. I want to avoid adding extra amps for the high/wide/vog type channels)
• An advanced correction system (does this mean only Audyssey, or Dirac Live?)
• Good up-mixing support as I have mainly stereo and 5.1 content
• The AVR goes into standby/off mode when idle  (the kids won't turn it off)
• Some type of "dynamic volume" feature
• Second HDMI output and an IR input (but also is not a total deal breaker)
• Not terrible remote control

 

 

So far ... I like the look of the NAD 758v3 as it has Dirac Live, BluOS/MQA ... and it can get me to dolby 7.1.4 (with one extra stereo amp) and it is priced nice ....   The "rainbow chaser" in me doesn't want to miss the opportunity to put in a bunch more high/wide channels - if it is not a dumb idea for my room, and if I can do it without buying a "flagship" receiver.

 

Do I just take a 7.1.4 and be happy?   .... or is there something else I should look to?

[Snoopy8]

6 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

• An advanced correction system (does this mean only Audyssey, or Dirac Live?)
• Good up-mixing support as I have mainly stereo and 5.1 content
• The AVR goes into standby/off mode when idle  (the kids won't turn it off)
• Some type of "dynamic volume" feature
• Second HDMI output and an IR input (but also is not a total deal breaker)
• Not terrible remote control

I purchased the NAD 758V3 because it was the best value for money AVR with a decent room correction software (see link).  I have used and rate Dirac Live and Anthem Room Correction (ARC) as the better ones to consider; Audyssey (need to go to Pro version) is good for movies, but not so good for music. 

 

It has the following up-mixing:  Dolby Surround, NEO:6 Cinema, NEO:6 Music,  EARS, Enhanced Stereo.  I particularly like NAD's proprietary EARS.  From their description: EARS extracts the natural ambience present in nearly all well-produced stereo recordings. It does not synthesize any ambience or other sonic elements and thus remains truer to the sound of the original musical performance than most other music-surround options.

 

Standby is standard.

 

Has dynamic Dolby and DTS range (volume) control.

 

Has 3 HDMI ouputs, no IR input.

 

Remote is decent, but I tend to use a Harmony Remote 650 because it will switch on/off multiple devices for home theatre use.

22 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

So far ... I like the look of the NAD 758v3 as it has Dirac Live, BluOS/MQA ... and it can get me to dolby 7.1.4 (with one extra stereo amp) and it is priced nice ....   The "rainbow chaser" in me doesn't want to miss the opportunity to put in a bunch more high/wide channels - if it is not a dumb idea for my room, and if I can do it without buying a "flagship" receiver.

 

Do I just take a 7.1.4 and be happy?   .... or is there something else I should look to?

BluOS was a bonus which I was not anticipating and it is user friendly, easy to setup.  I have used the NAD for music when my 2 Channel system was not available due to upgrades.  While it will not match the 2 channel setup, I would live with it if that was all I had (yes, it is decent).  Have not tried MQA much.  And with Dirac Live, it does multi channel music superbly, slightly better than ARC.  And ARC is only available on the more costly Anthem AVRs.

 

Am running 5.2, will extend to 5.2.4 when I get around to installing the 4 ceiling speakers.   I do movies/multi channel music perhaps 20% of the time, so did not want to spend lots on an AVR.  Also I think going beyond 7.1.4 is chasing rainbows too much, but that is me.

 

The 758V3 was a good fit for my needs and I think will meet your requirements well.

[davewantsmoore]

42 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The 758V3 was a good fit for my needs and I think will meet your requirements well.

The manual says it does have an IR input (?!)

[Quark]

Given the width and height of your room, plus your seating position I can't see much benefit in height and wide speakers.  The only step up from 7.1.4 I'd suggest you consider is 7.2.4 - I'm running the latter in a 5.3m x 4.3m x 2.7m room.

[Snoopy8]

31 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

The manual says it does have an IR input (?!)

You are correct. Don't know why, but brain was thinking RF??? 

[davewantsmoore]

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Don't know

Maybe you can answer another question.

 

Do you get Dirac Live correction for the height channels?... or is it just the 7.1

[kukynas]

Hi Dave, for such room size 7.1.4 would be my minimum (I wish I have such space)  , in terms of processor part it depends if your intent is to enjoy more variety of upmixing features or tweaking the surround sound, due to fact majority of the movies is still in 5.1 you need to consider if your upmixing to 7.1.4 is important (Neural:X and Dolby Surround) so pick your poison   

[davewantsmoore]

2 minutes ago, kukynas said:

if your upmixing to 7.1.4 is important (Neural:X and Dolby Surround)

Yes, it is important   

 

I would like to (or think I would like to) place more than the 4 speakers above me (other heights, wides, vog, etc.) if there's a way for me to get that without lots of external amps.... or spending huge money.

 

3 hours ago, Quark said:

Given the width and height of your room, plus your seating position I can't see much benefit in height and wide speakers.  The only step up from 7.1.4 I'd suggest you consider is 7.2.4 - I'm running the latter in a 5.3m x 4.3m x 2.7m room.

Hi.  You think my room is narrow/low (!?) ... and so just the regular atmos heights will be 'enough'

 

Thanks.   I have multiple subwoofers, but have my own external bass processor.

[kukynas]

Than you should consider D&M products (AVR-X4400H or SR7012) which should be able to process 7.2.4 in N:X and DS, power wise depended on type of surround speakers, first row should be always powered by external amp if possible so in your case basically at least 2x external power amp in case of D&M avrs, in case of NAD at least 3x ex amp

[Snoopy8]

Just now, davewantsmoore said:

Do you get Dirac Live correction for the height channels?... or is it just the 7.1

Dirac Live SE for NAD comes with the unit, limited to 20Hz-500Hz and on 1 computer.  For additional USD100, can purchase the full license.  Not sure whether you have seen this Audio Nirvana review, but it says that Dirac  Live will cover 12 channels ie. 7.1.4  (bass treated as 1 channel even with multiple subs)

 

The other thing to consider is the supplied puck microphone, which is so, so.  If you do not have a calibrated usb microphone, suggest UMIK-1  and this microphone stand.  If you go for the Anthem MRX-720 (for 7.1.4), the stand and calibrated microphone (for exclusive use on Anthem, cannot be used on other apps) is included, but the MRX-720 costs a lot more.  

 

Even with the additional full license, usb microphone and stand, it is still good value.

[davewantsmoore]

2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

it says that Dirac  Live will cover 12 channels ie. 7.1.4  (bass treated as 1 channel even with multiple subs)

Perfect, thankye!

 

2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

additional full license, usb microphone

Yep, I would get those  

 

I have calibrated microphones, but they are for speaker design, so they are not USB.

[Snoopy8]

1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said:

I have calibrated microphones, but they are for speaker design, so they are not USB.

If the microphone can be connected to the PC and seen by Windows, it can be used.

[davewantsmoore]

1 minute ago, Snoopy8 said:

If the microphone can be connected to the PC and seen by Windows, it can be used.

ORLY?   Thanks, that's good to know.   I have a USB audio device, which I connect to a microphone preamp .... so I can use that.  Awesome.

[cwt]

Its good you specified an avr Dave as you can take advantage of the 758;s  more accurate watts per channel into all 7 channels rather than 2 like most .

Quote

The power amp section hits 60 watts with all seven channels driven and 110 watts in stereo, both at eight ohms. This is NAD’s honest power rating and I suspect if I measured it, the number might be a tad higher. I know that it has no problem driving my three front speakers which are large four-ohm full-range models from Axiom.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/surround-sound-speaker-systems-reviews/nad-t-758-v3-av-surround-sound-receiver-review/

As to more object audio speakers note some Studios like Disney and  Marvell movies are being  authored with pinned object audio to a 7.1.4 channel output rather than variable steering that the atmos specification encompasses  . This is to facilitate producing 1 master for both UHD discs as well as streaming [ bandwidth is lower ] so saving money . Disney for example like to cater to ipads and iphones  You can find some UHD discs with 7.1.4 printed on their dustjackets.. or keep reading the trinnov altitude thread @ avs forum as those pre pro's can read the atmos metadata ...

The nice thing about Dirac is how it corrects speaker phase ; not just the room .

To add to kukynas ; dolby has cracked down on new avr's application of dsp modes ; they wont allow dts x neural upmixer to be applied to a dolby signal ; it has to be DSU ; older avr's are safe but worth checking.. 

 

Quote

I have calibrated microphones, but they are for speaker design, so they are not USB.

The 758 gives a mike choice between the pc or the plug in back panel dongle iirc as snoopy said

[Raffinator]

I was looking at this. I especially liked the BluOS as it made it Roon RAAT compatible - the only AVR I found that was.

 

My disappointment was that it doesn’t accept DSD over HDMI, and I still have lots of multichannel SACDs that I play. Marantz, Yamaha, Cambridge Audio etc have this.

[Quark]

46 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Hi.  You think my room is narrow/low (!?) ... and so just the regular atmos heights will be 'enough'

 

Thanks.   I have multiple subwoofers, but have my own external bass processor.

 

I think you would need a larger room (or sit back further if your screen is large enough) to get much benefit from heights and wides. I'm not noticing a gap in panning effects with my set-up - Atmos in particular lives up to the spiel about being object based audio and so able to adjust for speaker positioning after calibration.

[davewantsmoore]

Just now, cwt said:

Its good you specified an avr Dave as you can take advantage of the 758;s  more accurate watts per channel into all 7 channels rather than 2 like most .

Yep.  My height and surround speakers will go OK with 60 watts each (or at least, I will design/build something which does).

 

My front and back speakers all have their own amplifiers ... so won't use the AVR (hence the need for pre-outs).

Just now, cwt said:

To add to kukynas ; dolby has cracked down on new avr's application of dsp modes ; they wont allow dts x neural upmixer to be applied to a dolby signal ; it has to be DSU ; older avr's are safe but worth checking.. 

Yes, I had heard about this.    Does that mean that if I put in heights, wides, vogs, or other 'above' speakers.... that then I won't be able to use a Auro3D or DTX, or some other, upmixer which understands those speakers?

 

So I guess a standard Atmos layout is what I should go with then?! ... and forget all the other fancy stuff?!?

Just now, cwt said:

The 758 gives a mike choice between the pc or the plug in back panel dongle iirc as snoopy said

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

Not sure whether you have seen this Audio Nirvana review,

Thanks, I leaned it has easy tone controls (yay!)

[Snoopy8]

44 minutes ago, Raffinator said:

I was looking at this. I especially liked the BluOS as it made it Roon RAAT compatible - the only AVR I found that was.

 

My disappointment was that it doesn’t accept DSD over HDMI, and I still have lots of multichannel SACDs that I play. Marantz, Yamaha, Cambridge Audio etc have this.

Both my previous Anthem and current NAD AVRs do not do DSD over HDMI. I know that Anthem Room Correction cannot work on DSD and I suspect the same with Dirac Live.  However, the multi channel playback on the Anthem & NAD are both very good (NAD slightly better). So not having DSD over HDMI was not an issue for me.  

[kukynas]

53 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Yes, I had heard about this.    Does that mean that if I put in heights, wides, vogs, or other 'above' speakers.... that then I won't be able to use a Auro3D or DTX, or some other, upmixer which understands those speakers?

 

So I guess a standard Atmos layout is what I should go with then?! ... and forget all the other fancy stuff?!?

it means that if the track is recorded in DTS 5.1 you can only use Neural:X for 7.1.4 upmixing, in case of Dolby Digital 5.1 track you can only use Dolby Surround, so basically the cross compatibility between DTS and Dolby has been finished, it's just another limitation due to competition, just make sure if you by any future BD,UHD disc it contain audio track supporting upmixing technology of your AVR or just buy AVR which supports both, Atmos is fine as it's separate track on the disc, not sure about Auro 3D

 

if DSD over HDMI or DLNA (wifi, Lan) is required than look at those who supports it, I wouldn't care about it myself but different people have different requirements 

[cwt]

5 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Yes, I had heard about this.    Does that mean that if I put in heights, wides, vogs, or other 'above' speakers.... that then I won't be able to use a Auro3D or DTX, or some other, upmixer which understands those speakers?

 

So I guess a standard Atmos layout is what I should go with then?! ... and forget all the other fancy stuff?!?

Its somewhat complicated by the fact that 3rd party proprietary dsp modes get the pass from dolby but audioholics have the details on whats restricted ; Ime ok ; as I have a yam CXA5100 so the 758 may likely be too ?

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/dolby-non-native-upmixing-atmos

The thing to consider is these upmixers for the most part were designed to complement 2d blurays and lossless dd truehd and dts hdma tracks rather than atmos and dts x object metadata . It just restricts what codecs you use with each ; if you really want to match up different dsp modes there is always the workaround of decoding the lossless to lpcm in the player then your free to ignore dolby  ; just awkward ..

Atmos is the predominant player atm and dts speaker positioning is compatible ; auro with its 3 layer hemisphere isn't a close match to the 2 dominant object codecs and isn't actually object based but still channel based so understandable why the NAD doesn't have it .. its a good thing you have NAD;s EAR proprietary dsp ; its a lot more subtle for 2ch and should be a pass with dolbys stricture.

Edited October 28, 2018 by cwt

[Marc]

Some more reading material on this one if it still interests you: https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/review-nad-electronics-t-758-v3-av-receiver

We reviewed it back in December, and it won Tony over, for the money.

[davewantsmoore]

10 hours ago, kukynas said:

it means that if the track is recorded in DTS 5.1 you can only use Neural:X for 7.1.4 upmixing, in case of Dolby Digital 5.1 track you can only use Dolby Surround

Is that right?   I had though it was you could only use Dolby upmixer for Dolby content.....  but for DTS (for example) I would be able to use any upmixer (including Dolby Surround Upmixer)

 

... but I haven't spent a lot of time looking in to it (!?!?)

 

10 hours ago, kukynas said:

if DSD over HDMI or DLNA (wifi, Lan) is required

It is not required.    

[davewantsmoore]

14 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Is that right?

I don't think so....

• Quote

   

  • Native Dolby Atmos content shall NOT be up-mixed, surround or height virtualized by any 3rd party competitor upmixer (ie. DTS or Auro-3D).
  • Channel-Based DD/DD+, Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and 7.1 codecs shall not be height virtualized by any 3rd party upmixer (ie. DTS). (This implies height virtualization without height speakers. DTS has this capability but Auro-3D does not).

   

[davewantsmoore]

4 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

I don't think so....

... Steady on, maybe not so clear

 

Quote

Will the user still be able to apply the DSU to non-native Dolby audio streams? If, for example, your source is encoded in DTS HD, it's unclear if Dolby will restrict the use of the DSU to upmix and height virtualize the signal

 

[k3nnis888]

How does this receiver perform in 2 channel compared to say entry level to mid range integrated amps?

 

Say Rotel, Cambridge Audio type of integrated amps. 70W-100W X 2

Edited November 2, 2018 by k3nnis888