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Impact of using Solar power on audio equipment and sound quality

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2 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Our kitchen m/w oven doesn't seem to affect our wifi - or the 4 cordless land-line phones.  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

But.....drum roll............

'does it affect the sound of the system?

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48 minutes ago, rawl99 said:

But.....drum roll............

'does it affect the sound of the system?

 

Good question, rawl!  :thumb:  I'm afraid I have NFI - as, when the microwave is on ... I'm cooking dinner and am not listening to my stereo system.  :)

 

Andy

 

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52 minutes ago, rawl99 said:

You consistently seem to come from a theory and measurement point of view.

 

That is indeed where MLXXX comes from.  I presume he has an engineering degree?

 

52 minutes ago, rawl99 said:

Whilst I think these are valuable tools at the end of the day it is the listening experience that captures and enthrals us.

I have listened to a lot of equipment that measures and specs amazingly that is as unengaging and uninteresting to listen to as it is possible to get.  So whilst the theory and measurements are useful, they are not at all definitive of what the final sound quality will be.

 

I'm in your camp, rawl.  Listening is what it's all about.  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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35 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

That is indeed where MLXXX comes from.  I presume he has an engineering degree?

 

 

I'm in your camp, rawl.  Listening is what it's all about.  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

I think I must be broken.

I are an Electronics Injuneer and I also reckon listening is what it is about🤔

Do you know anybody that could help fix me🤓

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43 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Good question, rawl!  :thumb:  I'm afraid I have NFI - as, when the microwave is on ... I'm cooking dinner and am not listening to my stereo system.  :)

 

Andy

 

Easy to tell you are male.

Tragic inability to multi-task😏

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1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

Good question, rawl!  :thumb:  I'm afraid I have NFI - as, when the microwave is on ... I'm cooking dinner and am not listening to my stereo system.  :)

 

Andy

 

You should take the microwave and place it near your Preamp..  I’m sure then it will effect the rig.    I know then when the boss listens to AM SBS and she uses the microwave the radio goes spastic, full of static masking the signal....     however when you move the  radio the static subsides as distance increases,  don’t forget that interference is base on power and it’s a square factor so it doesn’t take far for the static to subside.   

Never had an issue with the 5Ghz cordless phone, will never know now because nbn has arrived and I’ve done away with the landline, everyone is on mobile and I can’t justify going VOIP. 

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It’s funny we all have different expectations.  

 

I have an expectation when I listen to sound and I have an expectation on electronics....   

 

i remember walking up the stairs during a Hifi show and remember that disgusting edgy sound coming from this huge function room,   Massive amplification via some massive speakers that was mega dollars.  To me and a few other SNA members couldnt believe that that sort of SQ will sell!  To me, something was seriously technically wrong!  Yet some members told me latter in the day that they had fixed that up and it’s now a joy to listen to so I went back to that room, however as I approached that area you can hear that it wasn’t  fixed and it was exactly the same,  edgy, distorted sound quality with something technically seriously wrong!  If I heard that in my rig I would be on a mission on fault finding, and I’m  sure I’ll  pin point the offending component.

Edited by Addicted to music

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6 hours ago, rawl99 said:

You keep maintaining that an Audiophile device will generally attenuate hash to a negligible level.

I am again curious as to exact;y what evidence you have to support this ongoing claim/supposition.

The reservoir electrolytic capacitors following the rectifier typically reduce the full-wave rectified mains to such a low level of 100Hz ripple that hum is not readily audible if that power is used directly (e.g. to power an output stage). Inverter hash at the primary of the power transformer will be at a much lower amplitude than 240V AC, perhaps just a few volts, and at a much higher range of frequency components than 100Hz, and will thus be easier to filter out than 100Hz ripple.

 

(Typically, linear power supplies have small value capacitors in parallel with the main reservoir capacitors to attenuate higher frequency components that the parasitic inductance of the electrolytic capacitors might present too high an impedance for.)

 

If you are doubtful, simply apply oscilloscope probes to the DC rail at that point, measure the 100Hz ripple amplitude and then try to find the amplitude of any other frequency components.

 

After that, the main supply rail is typically regulated, further reducing 100Hz ripple, and any hash not already removed by the filter capacitors. You could try measuring the ripple etc, after the voltage regulator. (After that, typically the supply rail may be further decoupled with resistors and capacitors for any extremely sensitive low signal level circuitry.)

 

Based on the above type of design, the chances of hash making its way through to critical parts of the circuitry should be remote. It's possible, but unlikely.

 

6 hours ago, rawl99 said:

I have however, heard a number of amplifiers that seemed essentially immune from mains quality but they sounded lifeless and ordinary anyway so they do not rate as good examples.

I'm not sure what you mean by "lifeless and ordinary". Amplifiers are generally designed to be neutral. Conventionally, they should not add colour. If you prefer amplifiers that add a sonic signature, and you find that that sonic signature varies with the supply voltage, or with hash,  that of course is your choice.

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, the result of having voltage regulation in the design of an audiophile device is that its critical circuits are fed with a virtually constant voltage (unless the mains voltage varies to extremes).

 

And (as I mention above in this post) the result of standard practice in power supply design for an audiophile device is that inverter hash should normally be filtered out by the power supply filtering.

 

6 hours ago, rawl99 said:

The other quote from you is:

"If the level of the error from the ideal is so subtle and elusive that it cannot be captured using the line input of a reasonable quality portable recorder then I would question whether the matter warrants further attention"

I have to say that I find this to be quite an astonishing comment if you are one who seeks to create as high-a-quality music reproduction as you can.

Some of us are crazy enough to want to achieve a level of reproduction that supersedes that vast majority of "reasonable quality portable recorder(s)"

If typical hash levels from an inverter produce an audible difference, then we would expect higher than normal levels of hash from a really poor inverter to produce an even greater audible difference.

 

It should be feasible to capture that even greater level of audible difference with something like the Zoom H5, perhaps not in its full "glory" but at least to the point that some difference could actually be heard.  If no one has bothered to do that, and upload specimen A and B recordings to the net, what does that suggest to you, @rawl99?

 

It suggests to me that we are in the realm of extremely minor differences.

I would be far more persuaded there was something to worry about if someone could team up a really bad level of solar inverter hash, with a really vulnerable device (perhaps a DAC) and record the really bad effect that the really bad level of hash has constantly (or even occasionally) on the output of that very vulnerable device.

 

In my household we have a standard good quality inverter (SMA Sunny Boy) and to my knowledge none of the audiophile equipment is highly vulnerable to inverter hash, so I am not in a position to make the type of recording I have described in the preceding paragraph.

Edited by MLXXX

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On 12/02/2019 at 11:15 PM, MLXXX said:

The reservoir electrolytic capacitors following the rectifier typically reduce the full-wave rectified mains to such a low level of 100Hz ripple that hum is not readily audible if that power is used directly (e.g. to power an output stage). Inverter hash at the primary of the power transformer will be at a much lower amplitude than 240V AC, perhaps just a few volts, and at a much higher range of frequency components than 100Hz, and will thus be easier to filter out than 100Hz ripple.

 

(Typically, linear power supplies have small value capacitors in parallel with the main reservoir capacitors to attenuate higher frequency components that the parasitic inductance of the electrolytic capacitors might present too high an impedance for.)

 

If you are doubtful, simply apply oscilloscope probes to the DC rail at that point, measure the 100Hz ripple amplitude and then try to find the amplitude of any other frequency components.

Well aware of all the above.

It can be an interesting experiment/experience to hear the sonic impact of a very small amount of high frequency hash on a power supply line.

Clay Giesler and bhobba did some scope work with power supplies for Bills Chord DAC and Clay I believe was quite amazed by the sonic impact of a very small level of hash.

 

Quote

After that, the main supply rail is typically regulated, further reducing 100Hz ripple, and any hash not already removed by the filter capacitors. You could try measuring the ripple etc, after the voltage regulator. (After that, typically the supply rail may be further decoupled with resistors and capacitors for any extremely sensitive low signal level circuitry.)

 

Based on the above type of design, the chances of hash making its way through to critical parts of the circuitry should be remote. It's possible, but unlikely.

Assuming that the supply is regulated.

A lot of brilliant valve gear has little to no regulation.  The devices rely on multiple filtering stages to clean the power to an acceptable degree with no regulation used.  Accordingly, a lot of these devices are sensitive to mains quality.  Interestingly, a very good number of these devices I have heard that use very little to no regulation have sounded amazing.

Quote

I'm not sure what you mean by "lifeless and ordinary". Amplifiers are generally designed to be neutral. Conventionally, they should not add colour. If you prefer amplifiers that add a sonic signature, and you find that that sonic signature varies with the supply voltage, or with hash,  that of course is your choice.

Almost comes across as a subtle insult with you sitting at the pinnacle of audiophile purity.

EVERY! amplifier adds a sonic signature.  That is just a simple fact.  Some hurt the signal more than others and the ones that hurt more I describe as ‘lifeless and ordinary’

If you have done some comparisons of very good amps vs more average amps (with great quality compinentry filling in the other spots) then I am certain you would understand my description.  Once you have heard music that sounds ‘alive’ ( Like you would hear at a live acoustic performance such as a classical symphony) through a reproduction system then you will understand my terminology.

Intetesting that less hash = better sound.

Quote

At the risk of stating the obvious, the result of having voltage regulation in the design of an audiophile device is that its critical circuits are fed with a virtually constant voltage (unless the mains voltage varies to extremes).

 

And (as I mention above in this post) the result of standard practice in power supply design for an audiophile device is that inverter hash should normally be filtered out by the power supply filtering.

‘Standard’ practice is a wildly variable thing.

A power supply that measures well may not sound good.  Been there done that.

 And to what level is the hash filtered out??

Maybe to a level deemed to be acceptable?

But ‘acceptable’ has very different meaning to different people depending on the level of excellence sought in the devices performance.

Quote

If typical hash levels from an inverter produce an audible difference, then we would expect higher than normal levels of hash from a really poor inverter to produce an even greater audible difference.

 

It should be feasible to capture that even greater level of audible difference with something like the Zoom H5, perhaps not in its full "glory" but at least to the point that some difference could actually be heard.  If no one has bothered to do that, and upload specimen A and B recordings to the net, what does that suggest to you, @rawl99?

Perhaps in your theory it should be.

But I would posit that it takes pretty good damn setup to hear the difference so expecting to record and hear it on s $500 device could be a really big ask.

What it suggests to me is that most people are unable to discern the effects of such hash on the mains( for reasons I shall not elaborate upon), plus they are possibly  cognizant of the situation I refer to in previous sentence. 

Quote

It suggests to me that we are in the realm of extremely minor differences.

Absolutely we are indeed.

Quote

 


I would be far more persuaded there was something to worry about if someone could team up a really bad level of solar inverter hash, with a really vulnerable device (perhaps a DAC) and record the really bad effect that the really bad level of hash has constantly (or even occasionally) on the output of that very vulnerable device.

 

In my household we have a standard good quality inverter (SMA Sunny Boy) and to my knowledge none of the audiophile equipment is highly vulnerable to inverter hash, so I am not in a position to make the type of recording I have described in the preceding paragraph.

Whether you worry about it or not I figure depends upon whether you can hear it or not.

Cant help you with such a recording; sorry.

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On 12/02/2019 at 3:45 PM, MLXXX said:

@Addicted to music, I find it annoying that the kitchen microwave oven when operating stops my wi-fi from working properly, actually causing the connection to drop out, even though the wi-fi devices are quite some distance from the kitchen.  (I'm not aware of any effects from the 5kW solar inverter, other than the fact that it reduces my electricity bill!)

Doesn't that only effect 2.4GHz, if so switch it to 5GHz if the devices are compatible.

 

Edit: 2.450 MHz actually after a quick check.

https://bethesignal.com/wp/2017/02/why-do-microwave-ovens-operate-at-2-45-ghz/

Edited by Muon N'

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