Impact of using Solar power on audio equipment and sound quality

[rawl99]

2 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Our kitchen m/w oven doesn't seem to affect our wifi - or the 4 cordless land-line phones. 

 

Andy

 

But.....drum roll............

'does it affect the sound of the system?

[andyr]

48 minutes ago, rawl99 said:

But.....drum roll............

'does it affect the sound of the system?

 

Good question, rawl!    I'm afraid I have NFI - as, when the microwave is on ... I'm cooking dinner and am not listening to my stereo system. 

 

Andy

 

[andyr]

52 minutes ago, rawl99 said:

You consistently seem to come from a theory and measurement point of view.

 

That is indeed where MLXXX comes from.  I presume he has an engineering degree?

 

52 minutes ago, rawl99 said:

Whilst I think these are valuable tools at the end of the day it is the listening experience that captures and enthrals us.

I have listened to a lot of equipment that measures and specs amazingly that is as unengaging and uninteresting to listen to as it is possible to get.  So whilst the theory and measurements are useful, they are not at all definitive of what the final sound quality will be.

 

I'm in your camp, rawl.  Listening is what it's all about. 

 

Andy

 

[rawl99]

35 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

That is indeed where MLXXX comes from.  I presume he has an engineering degree?

 

 

I'm in your camp, rawl.  Listening is what it's all about. 

 

Andy

 

I think I must be broken.

I are an Electronics Injuneer and I also reckon listening is what it is about

Do you know anybody that could help fix me

[rawl99]

43 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Good question, rawl!    I'm afraid I have NFI - as, when the microwave is on ... I'm cooking dinner and am not listening to my stereo system. 

 

Andy

 

Easy to tell you are male.

Tragic inability to multi-task

[Addicted to music]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

Good question, rawl!    I'm afraid I have NFI - as, when the microwave is on ... I'm cooking dinner and am not listening to my stereo system. 

 

Andy

 

You should take the microwave and place it near your Preamp..  I’m sure then it will effect the rig.    I know then when the boss listens to AM SBS and she uses the microwave the radio goes spastic, full of static masking the signal....     however when you move the  radio the static subsides as distance increases,  don’t forget that interference is base on power and it’s a square factor so it doesn’t take far for the static to subside.   

Never had an issue with the 5Ghz cordless phone, will never know now because nbn has arrived and I’ve done away with the landline, everyone is on mobile and I can’t justify going VOIP. 

[Addicted to music]

It’s funny we all have different expectations.  

 

I have an expectation when I listen to sound and I have an expectation on electronics....   

 

i remember walking up the stairs during a Hifi show and remember that disgusting edgy sound coming from this huge function room,   Massive amplification via some massive speakers that was mega dollars.  To me and a few other SNA members couldnt believe that that sort of SQ will sell!  To me, something was seriously technically wrong!  Yet some members told me latter in the day that they had fixed that up and it’s now a joy to listen to so I went back to that room, however as I approached that area you can hear that it wasn’t  fixed and it was exactly the same,  edgy, distorted sound quality with something technically seriously wrong!  If I heard that in my rig I would be on a mission on fault finding, and I’m  sure I’ll  pin point the offending component.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Addicted to music

[MLXXX]

6 hours ago, rawl99 said:

You keep maintaining that an Audiophile device will generally attenuate hash to a negligible level.

I am again curious as to exact;y what evidence you have to support this ongoing claim/supposition.

The reservoir electrolytic capacitors following the rectifier typically reduce the full-wave rectified mains to such a low level of 100Hz ripple that hum is not readily audible if that power is used directly (e.g. to power an output stage). Inverter hash at the primary of the power transformer will be at a much lower amplitude than 240V AC, perhaps just a few volts, and at a much higher range of frequency components than 100Hz, and will thus be easier to filter out than 100Hz ripple.

 

(Typically, linear power supplies have small value capacitors in parallel with the main reservoir capacitors to attenuate higher frequency components that the parasitic inductance of the electrolytic capacitors might present too high an impedance for.)

 

If you are doubtful, simply apply oscilloscope probes to the DC rail at that point, measure the 100Hz ripple amplitude and then try to find the amplitude of any other frequency components.

 

After that, the main supply rail is typically regulated, further reducing 100Hz ripple, and any hash not already removed by the filter capacitors. You could try measuring the ripple etc, after the voltage regulator. (After that, typically the supply rail may be further decoupled with resistors and capacitors for any extremely sensitive low signal level circuitry.)

 

Based on the above type of design, the chances of hash making its way through to critical parts of the circuitry should be remote. It's possible, but unlikely.

 

6 hours ago, rawl99 said:

I have however, heard a number of amplifiers that seemed essentially immune from mains quality but they sounded lifeless and ordinary anyway so they do not rate as good examples.

I'm not sure what you mean by "lifeless and ordinary". Amplifiers are generally designed to be neutral. Conventionally, they should not add colour. If you prefer amplifiers that add a sonic signature, and you find that that sonic signature varies with the supply voltage, or with hash,  that of course is your choice.

 

At the risk of stating the obvious, the result of having voltage regulation in the design of an audiophile device is that its critical circuits are fed with a virtually constant voltage (unless the mains voltage varies to extremes).

 

And (as I mention above in this post) the result of standard practice in power supply design for an audiophile device is that inverter hash should normally be filtered out by the power supply filtering.

 

6 hours ago, rawl99 said:

The other quote from you is:

"If the level of the error from the ideal is so subtle and elusive that it cannot be captured using the line input of a reasonable quality portable recorder then I would question whether the matter warrants further attention"

I have to say that I find this to be quite an astonishing comment if you are one who seeks to create as high-a-quality music reproduction as you can.

Some of us are crazy enough to want to achieve a level of reproduction that supersedes that vast majority of "reasonable quality portable recorder(s)"

If typical hash levels from an inverter produce an audible difference, then we would expect higher than normal levels of hash from a really poor inverter to produce an even greater audible difference.

 

It should be feasible to capture that even greater level of audible difference with something like the Zoom H5, perhaps not in its full "glory" but at least to the point that some difference could actually be heard.  If no one has bothered to do that, and upload specimen A and B recordings to the net, what does that suggest to you, @rawl99?

 

It suggests to me that we are in the realm of extremely minor differences.

I would be far more persuaded there was something to worry about if someone could team up a really bad level of solar inverter hash, with a really vulnerable device (perhaps a DAC) and record the really bad effect that the really bad level of hash has constantly (or even occasionally) on the output of that very vulnerable device.

 

In my household we have a standard good quality inverter (SMA Sunny Boy) and to my knowledge none of the audiophile equipment is highly vulnerable to inverter hash, so I am not in a position to make the type of recording I have described in the preceding paragraph.

Edited February 12, 2019 by MLXXX

[rawl99]

On 12/02/2019 at 11:15 PM, MLXXX said:

The reservoir electrolytic capacitors following the rectifier typically reduce the full-wave rectified mains to such a low level of 100Hz ripple that hum is not readily audible if that power is used directly (e.g. to power an output stage). Inverter hash at the primary of the power transformer will be at a much lower amplitude than 240V AC, perhaps just a few volts, and at a much higher range of frequency components than 100Hz, and will thus be easier to filter out than 100Hz ripple.

 

(Typically, linear power supplies have small value capacitors in parallel with the main reservoir capacitors to attenuate higher frequency components that the parasitic inductance of the electrolytic capacitors might present too high an impedance for.)

 

If you are doubtful, simply apply oscilloscope probes to the DC rail at that point, measure the 100Hz ripple amplitude and then try to find the amplitude of any other frequency components.

Well aware of all the above.

It can be an interesting experiment/experience to hear the sonic impact of a very small amount of high frequency hash on a power supply line.

Clay Giesler and bhobba did some scope work with power supplies for Bills Chord DAC and Clay I believe was quite amazed by the sonic impact of a very small level of hash.

 

Quote

After that, the main supply rail is typically regulated, further reducing 100Hz ripple, and any hash not already removed by the filter capacitors. You could try measuring the ripple etc, after the voltage regulator. (After that, typically the supply rail may be further decoupled with resistors and capacitors for any extremely sensitive low signal level circuitry.)

 

Based on the above type of design, the chances of hash making its way through to critical parts of the circuitry should be remote. It's possible, but unlikely.

Assuming that the supply is regulated.

A lot of brilliant valve gear has little to no regulation.  The devices rely on multiple filtering stages to clean the power to an acceptable degree with no regulation used.  Accordingly, a lot of these devices are sensitive to mains quality.  Interestingly, a very good number of these devices I have heard that use very little to no regulation have sounded amazing.

Quote

I'm not sure what you mean by "lifeless and ordinary". Amplifiers are generally designed to be neutral. Conventionally, they should not add colour. If you prefer amplifiers that add a sonic signature, and you find that that sonic signature varies with the supply voltage, or with hash,  that of course is your choice.

Almost comes across as a subtle insult with you sitting at the pinnacle of audiophile purity.

EVERY! amplifier adds a sonic signature.  That is just a simple fact.  Some hurt the signal more than others and the ones that hurt more I describe as ‘lifeless and ordinary’

If you have done some comparisons of very good amps vs more average amps (with great quality compinentry filling in the other spots) then I am certain you would understand my description.  Once you have heard music that sounds ‘alive’ ( Like you would hear at a live acoustic performance such as a classical symphony) through a reproduction system then you will understand my terminology.

Intetesting that less hash = better sound.

Quote

At the risk of stating the obvious, the result of having voltage regulation in the design of an audiophile device is that its critical circuits are fed with a virtually constant voltage (unless the mains voltage varies to extremes).

 

And (as I mention above in this post) the result of standard practice in power supply design for an audiophile device is that inverter hash should normally be filtered out by the power supply filtering.

‘Standard’ practice is a wildly variable thing.

A power supply that measures well may not sound good.  Been there done that.

 And to what level is the hash filtered out??

Maybe to a level deemed to be acceptable?

But ‘acceptable’ has very different meaning to different people depending on the level of excellence sought in the devices performance.

Quote

If typical hash levels from an inverter produce an audible difference, then we would expect higher than normal levels of hash from a really poor inverter to produce an even greater audible difference.

 

It should be feasible to capture that even greater level of audible difference with something like the Zoom H5, perhaps not in its full "glory" but at least to the point that some difference could actually be heard.  If no one has bothered to do that, and upload specimen A and B recordings to the net, what does that suggest to you, @rawl99?

Perhaps in your theory it should be.

But I would posit that it takes pretty good damn setup to hear the difference so expecting to record and hear it on s $500 device could be a really big ask.

What it suggests to me is that most people are unable to discern the effects of such hash on the mains( for reasons I shall not elaborate upon), plus they are possibly  cognizant of the situation I refer to in previous sentence. 

Quote

It suggests to me that we are in the realm of extremely minor differences.

Absolutely we are indeed.

Quote

 

I would be far more persuaded there was something to worry about if someone could team up a really bad level of solar inverter hash, with a really vulnerable device (perhaps a DAC) and record the really bad effect that the really bad level of hash has constantly (or even occasionally) on the output of that very vulnerable device.

 

In my household we have a standard good quality inverter (SMA Sunny Boy) and to my knowledge none of the audiophile equipment is highly vulnerable to inverter hash, so I am not in a position to make the type of recording I have described in the preceding paragraph.

Whether you worry about it or not I figure depends upon whether you can hear it or not.

Cant help you with such a recording; sorry.

[Guest Muon N']

On 12/02/2019 at 3:45 PM, MLXXX said:

@Addicted to music, I find it annoying that the kitchen microwave oven when operating stops my wi-fi from working properly, actually causing the connection to drop out, even though the wi-fi devices are quite some distance from the kitchen.  (I'm not aware of any effects from the 5kW solar inverter, other than the fact that it reduces my electricity bill!)

Doesn't that only effect 2.4GHz, if so switch it to 5GHz if the devices are compatible.

 

Edit: 2.450 MHz actually after a quick check.

https://bethesignal.com/wp/2017/02/why-do-microwave-ovens-operate-at-2-45-ghz/

Edited February 16, 2019 by Muon N'

[MLXXX]

2 hours ago, rawl99 said:

Whether you worry about it or not I figure depends upon whether you can hear it or not.

Cant help you with such a recording; sorry.

I haven't noticed any apparent issues from solar inverter hash with my own equipment.  And, as I've said, I'm not aware of any recording on the net that illustrates it.  At this point in time, solar inverter hash is not on my radar as an active concern.

 

People in rural communities using off-grid power exclusively could presumably be at greater risk as in some cases 100% of their power will come from an inverter (using batteries charged using photo-voltaic arrays and/or wind turbines, possibly supplemented by a petrol or diesel generator).  

Edited February 16, 2019 by MLXXX

[rawl99]

42 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

I haven't noticed any apparent issues from solar inverter hash with my own equipment.  And, as I've said, I'm not aware of any recording on the net that illustrates it.  At this point in time, solar inverter hash is not on my radar as an active concern.

 

People in rural communities using off-grid power exclusively could presumably be at greater risk as in some cases 100% of their power will come from an inverter (using batteries charged using photo-voltaic arrays and/or wind turbines, possibly supplemented by a petrol or diesel generator).  

I will say then that I think you are blessed with good fortune.

With off-grid situations the problem in determining whether the hash is detrimental is that you have no grid feed to compare the performance with.  So ya get what ya get.

[MLXXX]

On 12/02/2019 at 3:45 PM, MLXXX said:

... I find it annoying that the kitchen microwave oven when operating stops my wi-fi from working properly, actually causing the connection to drop out, even though the wi-fi devices are quite some distance from the kitchen.  ...

 

On 16/02/2019 at 8:17 PM, Muon N' said:

Doesn't that only effect 2.4GHz, if so switch it to 5GHz if the devices are compatible.

 

Edit: 2.450 MHz actually after a quick check.

https://bethesignal.com/wp/2017/02/why-do-microwave-ovens-operate-at-2-45-ghz/

 

The wireless router is a few years old and the highest band it is capable of operating in is the 2.4GHz band.

[Paul_Powers]

As I understand it, in order to completely offset the influence of various kinds of uncertainties in the operation of devices, it is necessary to design the functioning of such a system as a whole quite well. Up to the accumulation of energy in batteries and autonomous generators following the example of such in general for home

Edited April 24, 2019 by Paul_Powers

[Monkeyboi]

On 26/01/2019 at 7:43 PM, frankn said:

@MLXXX what do you pay for grid electricity now, Kw/Hr?

What is the current feed in tariff is for new solar connections?

Currently paying 25.752c / kWh buy in.

Currently getting 7.135c / kWh to feed it back into the grid.

Highway robbery considering the state of the electricity grid system. 

And except for the first 88kWh fed back into the grid they slap you with GST on your exported energy. 

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[Addicted to music]

4 hours ago, Monkeyboi said:

 

And except for the first 88kWh fed back into the grid they slap you with GST on your exported energy. 

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

WTF...!

[Monkeyboi]

On 16/02/2019 at 8:37 PM, rawl99 said:

I will say then that I think you are blessed with good fortune.

With off-grid situations the problem in determining whether the hash is detrimental is that you have no grid feed to compare the performance with.  So ya get what ya get.

One of the criteria of choosing an inverter was what noise if any it introduced to the power system.  After reading a lot of articles and a fellow audiophile had his solar power system installed I went with the SMA Sunnyboy TL5000B inverter.  Now after a few years of operation I can say it is noise and harmonic free and so far I have no complaints.  The SMA is a good, reliable and well engineered German product.

 

Yes it is a grid connect system.  I am fortunate that even though I live in a rural area and many of my neighbours have grid connected solar systems my property is fed independently from our own private 25kVA transformer that is not shared with any of the neighbouring properties.  I believe this arrangement has effectively filtered out any significant HF noise contamination from neighbouring systems. 

 

My only gripe is IMHO the government isn't doing enough to promote renewable energies and infrastructure that supports it.  In a country that has an abundance of sunshine but an increasing thirst for energy consumption we need to find ways to make these systems more attractive for consumers to install them.  Over the past almost 4 years the system has been up and running the yield has been in in excess of 33MWh of electricity generation.

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[theoldnic]

Just be sure your grid inverter is working properly, it will match the "line voltage phasing" of the grid power oscillation.

To input, an inverter controls input by what is required.

"Pure sine wave" inverter is required (that is what laboratories use it is more controlled and even less violent oscillation than all the other AC quality outputs).

Don't be fooled by True sine wave" or "sine wave" , it is effectively only square wave

and

You do not need "three phase" power of that being what it is the Australian power supply uses.

 

The main problem solar has is calculating the battery drain rate and output of the generator system(s) in use y wattage.

 

Comprehensive of wind-solar systems

http://windsolarhybridaustralia.x10.mx/mainindex.html

 

Battery resource calculator page (learn Ohms law calculation for watts/volts/Ah) (This is based on lead acid battery types of chemistries)

http://windsolarhybridaustralia.x10.mx/batterycalculatorAH.html

 

 

[MLXXX]

On 26/01/2019 at 9:43 PM, frankn said:

@MLXXX what do you pay for grid electricity now, Kw/Hr?

What is the current feed in tariff is for new solar connections?

I've recently noticed quite a bit of competition and some huge differences: it can be well worth while shopping around.

 

One interesting development is the ability for even new solar panel installations to earn almost as much per exported kWh as the retailer will charge per kwH consumed. This would  significantly reduce the  benefit of a "diverter" (discussed earlier in this thread) to stop an electric hot water system from drawing current when surplus solar power isn't available.  In S.E. Qld, plans are available that pay around 20c per kWh for export and charge only a little more than 20c per kWh for consumption.  

Edited June 5, 2019 by MLXXX

[Guest rmpfyf]

On 05/06/2019 at 7:09 PM, MLXXX said:

I've recently noticed quite a bit of competition and some huge differences: it can be well worth while shopping around.

 

Given recent changes in wholesale energy rates, everyone should be shopping around if they've not changed their rates in the last few months.

[seatrope]

On 11/02/2019 at 5:27 AM, Guest rmpfyf said:

Agreed

 

Would note that proper power measuring equipment is super expensive. $20k+. Ears are much cheaper. And if you don't hear any difference when filtered or not PV'd, ignorance or bliss or both are cheaper still  

 

My rig sounds best at night though I'd always put that down to voltage rise during the day, which used to be largely because of everyone else's PV system before I went ahead and got my own. A/B would be very hard as even when my system is off we still have sometimes mains at 255VAC, which some of my kit doesn't like so much. This was before an improvement in mains supply by the distributor wherein we'd drop below 190VAC at times (eep). 

 

And to complicate things further we're on an old mains which I'm about to upgrade with nice new thick-wire earthing, and I'm going to bet it'll sound somewhat different accordingly. Again. 

 

I have a filter inline that's great though it changes impedance somewhat, and I'm going to have some sockets installed that bypass the filter entirely to see what's what. This should be amusing. 

 

In PV-landia it gets interesting with big iron inverters, transformerless inverters, new HD-wave style inverters (SolarEdge I don't think is the only firm pushing these) and microinverters (though do a small army of inverters all sync'd together 'sound' any different to one big one? Hmmm).

 

Give me a month or two and I might have some data for one of the cases, pending home owner permission.

 

@rmpfyf did you ever get measurement data for AC quality on Solaredge's HDwave inverters AC quality? I'm intrigued about your statement on another thread about how the AC sinewave is synthesized with Solaredge vs Enphase. Makes sense with enphase that all the small microinverters end up summing to a sine wave, but it may also follow that the sinewave with Enphase would be less smooth with fewer microinverters or smoother with more?

 

The other thing I'm intrigued by is if audio quality will be improved when on 100% battery self-consumption mode. I think it will again highly depend on the inverter quality as well as on the peak power draw or impedance for acoustic peaks. A member on another forum posted findings with a Tesla inverter/battery/panel system that indicates he actually gets improved audio quality on batteries. I won't approach his level of peak power with 3 Powerwalls but potentially 2x SE 10kW inverters with 2x LG RESU16H prime gives me about 20kW peak draw and 14 kW continuous draw. 

 

Thanks for any information you might have!

[Snoopy8]

@seatrope, when poster's name starts with "Guest", it means that person has left forum....

[seatrope]

Ahhh i didn't know that. Thanks @Snoopy8. Guess I won't be hearing from them!

 

Perhaps someone else will have a data point on audio quality while on batteries?

[Grizzly]

31 minutes ago, seatrope said:

Ahhh i didn't know that. Thanks @Snoopy8. Guess I won't be hearing from them!

 

Perhaps someone else will have a data point on audio quality while on batteries?

@tal mentioned to me a noticeable improvement with battery feed 

[seatrope]

1 hour ago, Grizzly said:

@tal mentioned to me a noticeable improvement with battery feed 

Thanks! I'll reach out to @tal or they can reply here.

 

Would be curious what inverter and battery type, AC coupled or DC coupled, and how much peak power is on tap. Perhaps that correlates with the impedance of the supply and dynamic slam.