Impact of using Solar power on audio equipment and sound quality

[rantan]

2 minutes ago, Assisi said:

@rmpfyf @MLXXX

 

I have found the good will shown by both of you plus your respective level of knowledge on this subject to be commendable.

John

I certainly agree John.

Both members have obvious knowledge on this topic and it has been verey satisfying to read the contributions.

Thank you gentlemen

 

[MLXXX]

26 minutes ago, Assisi said:

I have found the good will shown by both of you plus your respective level of knowledge on this subject to be commendable.

 

23 minutes ago, rantan said:

Thank you gentlemen

 

Kind of you to say.

I think I'll go back to my seat in the audience now. (Quit while I'm ahead.)

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

 

 

Kind of you to say.

I think I'll go back to my seat in the audience now. (Quit while I'm ahead.)

@MLXXX

No!  Keep participating.   To me this thread is a respectful discussion.  It is an example of how a few other discussions on SNA could be conducted so that we all can learn from the knowledge that is out there.  It is also an example how to amicably agree to disagree.  This in contrast to the  threads that become a series of stand offs, put downs or supercilious comments that go too far, posts are deleted or a thread is put under moderator watch and in some cases members banned.

John

[andyr]

6 hours ago, MLXXX said:

 

If a person experienced in listening for subtle differences, and with healthy hearing, cannot notice any audible change in the output of an audiophile device under evaluation as between it being powered by clean mains and poor quality mains ... then perhaps the "poor quality" mains is not so poor quality after all! 

 

I remain uneducated as to how mains power supply hash affects the sound of a power amplifier. I haven't heard it "live" (as best I know), I haven't heard it in a demonstration recording of the effect of power supply hash, and I haven't read a technical explanation as to the mechanism by which the performance of a power amplifier might be affected by power supply hash.

 

Why don't you simply do an experiment?  (IOW, don't read about the theory - just try it.  )

 

Put a hash filter between one of your source components (or your preamp) and the wall socket.  Of course you may not hear any difference; this would indicate to me that either:

• you have a nice clean mains power sine wave, or
• the hash filter does nothing.

But if you do actually hear a difference ... you will have educated yourself as to how hash can affect what you hear. 

 

You can of course do the same thing with a power amp (put a hash filter between it and the wall socket) - just make sure you use a 10a hash filter.

 

Andy

 

 

[MLXXX]

41 minutes ago, andyr said:

Put a hash filter between one of your source components (or your preamp) and the wall socket.  Of course you may not hear any difference; this would indicate to me that either:

• you have a nice clean mains power sine wave, or
• the hash filter does nothing.

Or:

• the mains power is not clean and the hash filter does a good job cleaning it up, but the source component can tolerate, and is unaffected by, the dirtyness, or
• MLXXX's hearing is not up to the task, or
• the main amp is not up to the task [lacks "resolution" is a phrase I've heard].

 

I include the last two dot points above, because if the type of effect we are talking about can be so subtle as to escape detection with a portable sound recorder, it could also escape detection when listened to live with my ears, through my system's main amp and speakers.

Anyone interested in knowing how close their mains supply is to a sine wave could use a suitable attenuation pad and make a recording of it at say 96kHz and 24 bits and then use software to analyse the distortion products, or any other spurious components present in the nominal 50Hz waveform.  Or use a suitable modern oscilloscope with analysis functions built-in.

[andyr]

19 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Or:

• the mains power is not clean and the hash filter does a good job cleaning it up, but the source component can tolerate, and is unaffected by, the dirtyness, or
• MLXXX's hearing is not up to the task, or
• the main amp is not up to the task [lacks "resolution" is a phrase I've heard].

 

I include the last two dot points above, because if the type of effect we are talking about can be so subtle as to escape detection with a portable sound recorder, it could also escape detection when listened to live with my ears, through my system's main amp and speakers.

Anyone interested in knowing how close their mains supply is to a sine wave could use a suitable attenuation pad and make a recording of it at say 96kHz and 24 bits and then use software to analyse the distortion products, or any other spurious components present in the nominal 50Hz waveform.  Or use a suitable modern oscilloscope with analysis functions built-in.

 

Why are you so against performing a simple experiment, MLXXX???

 

I've done it (the experiment) a couple of times - and all I can say is ... a hash filter delivers an improvement in SQ.  Several other people were in the same listening sessions (4 or 5 years ago) and all of them would agree with this.  And this was in 2 different locations - so it was not just a 'local power supply' issue.

 

Andy

 

 

 

[Addicted to music]

Here’s a better way, but note, I would not recommend doing this,  I accept no responsibility if someone electrocute themselves.    I’m just putting it here to show that the mains can be measured and viewed.   I did this back in the mid to late 80s becuase certain psu would just die, and we had to place monitoring equipment with a plotter. 

 

 

 

[MLXXX]

6 minutes ago, andyr said:

I've done it (the experiment) a couple of times - and all I can say is ... a hash filter delivers an improvement in SQ. 

You haven't described the "experiment" in any detail. Was it a sighted test?  If so, I'm sorry but that carries extremely little weight with me.

If my approach offends you, I'm sorry. There have been too many occasions when I have thought I heard a difference, but when I tested myself over 10 or more trials, unsighted, I failed.

[andyr]

12 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

You haven't described the "experiment" in any detail. Was it a sighted test?  If so, I'm sorry but that carries extremely little weight with me.

 

I'm well aware that it does, MLXXX.    Whereas, to me ... dbts are a pointless distraction.  (Much like vegans who pronounce that the solution to the 'climate change' is for everyone to stop eating meat.  )

 

12 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

If my approach offends you, I'm sorry.

 

Your approach doesn't offend me at all, MLXXX.  I'm just sad that you seem trapped within your world view - so you can't take the opportunity to improve your SQ.  And I would say ... it is fruitless to just do tests by yourself; you need several people in the room.

 

Andy

 

[rantan]

1 minute ago, andyr said:

 a pointless distraction.  (Much like vegans who pronounce that the solution to the 'climate change' is for everyone to stop eating meat.  )

Vegans, don't get me started .

[Addicted to music]

To be honest @andyr  if a person does the test and hears no difference at all whether a filter is in place or not,  and tries it several times and cannot tell the difference do you think that they’d persevere until a difference is known.  Not everyone have the same Solar PV setup, all are different here on this thread,  and we all live in different areas.  Many say they cannot hear  at the start of this thread, and some say they can hear it day and night......    I couldn’t tell becuase I don’t have PV on the roof.   But there are many surrounding residence who do!    Yet I find the rig sounds better at night which just could be my imagination.

[MLXXX]

5 minutes ago, andyr said:

And I would say ... it is fruitless to just do tests by yourself; you need several people in the room.

Not my experience. For example some years ago, using an ABX plug-in for foobar 2000 I tested my ability to distinguish between a 24-bit sound file truncated to 16-bits and the same file dithered to 16-bits using a noise-shaped dither. There wasn't much difference in the sound for my ears but there was enough for me to pass the automated ABX test, alone.  

 

I cannot see the advantage of sitting with others when doing a precision listening test such as the above.  Are your answers your own perception, or your own perception unconsciously influenced by reactions of people around you?

Anyway, this discussion has become rather general. We should be discussing possible impacts of solar inverters on sound quality.

[andyr]

1 hour ago, rantan said:

Vegans, don't get me started .

 

I suspect you and I have similar views. 

 

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

To be honest @andyr  if a person does the test and hears no difference at all whether a filter is in place or not,  and tries it several times and cannot tell the difference do you think that they’d persevere until a difference is known.

 

Peter, my suggestion was that there is no point doing SQ tests alone - you need several keen-eared friends around when you do them.  (Because you have to do work when orchestrating the tests - which is not helpful to listening!)

 

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

Not my experience. For example some years ago, using an ABX plug-in for foobar 2000 I tested my ability to distinguish between a 24-bit sound file truncated to 16-bits and the same file dithered to 16-bits using a noise-shaped dither. There wasn't much difference in the sound for my ears but there was enough for me to pass the automated ABX test, alone.  

 

I cannot see the advantage of sitting with others when doing a precision listening test such as the above.  Are your answers your own perception, or your own perception unconsciously influenced by reactions of people around you?

Anyway, this discussion has become rather general. We should be discussing possible impacts of solar inverters on sound quality.

 

True, we are off-topic.  My own view is that solar inverters degrade SQ.  I don't have one - so my concern is ... will my neighbour's solar inverter f*ck up my SQ!

 

In terms of "the advantage of sitting with others when doing a precision listening test such as the above" - my view is that the work you do when changing components around ... makes you unable to compare one sound against the other.  You need other people there to do the listening - whilst you do the f*cking around. 

 

Andy

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

Anyway, this discussion has become rather general. We should be discussing possible impacts of solar inverters on sound quality.

Agreed

 

Would note that proper power measuring equipment is super expensive. $20k+. Ears are much cheaper. And if you don't hear any difference when filtered or not PV'd, ignorance or bliss or both are cheaper still  

 

My rig sounds best at night though I'd always put that down to voltage rise during the day, which used to be largely because of everyone else's PV system before I went ahead and got my own. A/B would be very hard as even when my system is off we still have sometimes mains at 255VAC, which some of my kit doesn't like so much. This was before an improvement in mains supply by the distributor wherein we'd drop below 190VAC at times (eep). 

 

And to complicate things further we're on an old mains which I'm about to upgrade with nice new thick-wire earthing, and I'm going to bet it'll sound somewhat different accordingly. Again. 

 

I have a filter inline that's great though it changes impedance somewhat, and I'm going to have some sockets installed that bypass the filter entirely to see what's what. This should be amusing. 

 

In PV-landia it gets interesting with big iron inverters, transformerless inverters, new HD-wave style inverters (SolarEdge I don't think is the only firm pushing these) and microinverters (though do a small army of inverters all sync'd together 'sound' any different to one big one? Hmmm).

 

Give me a month or two and I might have some data for one of the cases, pending home owner permission.

[MLXXX]

3 hours ago, andyr said:

You need other people there to do the listening

Just one "other" person to do the listening can work well. As I mentioned before, if you have a group of listeners, you would need to guard against mutual influence, including unknowing, unintentional influence.

 

3 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Give me a month or two and I might have some data for one of the cases, pending home owner permission.

That could be interesting.

Edited February 11, 2019 by MLXXX

[Addicted to music]

7 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Agreed

 

Would note that proper power measuring equipment is super expensive. $20k+. Ears are much cheaper. And if you don't hear any difference when filtered or not PV'd, ignorance or bliss or both are cheaper still  

 

Ears are cheap, but are they accurate....

I can safely assume that everyone here on this thread are not 15-18! 

Just because I can’t hear it doesn’t mean it’s not there and someone who’s more younger and in tune can walk in finding it unbearable, Just consider yourself blessed if you don’t hear the hash form inverters.

7 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

I have a filter inline that's great though it changes impedance somewhat, and I'm going to have some sockets installed that bypass the filter entirely to see what's what. This should be amusing. 

 

.

I had an in-line filter, taken it off not because it was improving things it was causing other issues. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Addicted to music

[Guest rmpfyf]

6 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

I had an in-line filter, taken it off not because it was improving things it was causing other issues. 

 

I think you'll be right. I have a Thor DRM95, it's a nice unit, Australian made, though with the mains supply better sorted I think there's a solid chance end up sounding better without it...

[Nada]

Does anyone know if it would be feasible to run a system direct of DC from lithium battery bank charged by solar?

 

 By having two battery banks, one could be charging and used for invertor-house power while the second could be invertor free for running the system with purish DC.  Any thoughts?

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, Nada said:

Does anyone know if it would be feasible to run a system direct of DC from lithium battery bank charged by solar?

 

 By having two battery banks, one could be charging and used for invertor-house power while the second could be invertor free for running the system with purish DC.  Any thoughts?

 

125dbmonster (no longer on the forums) has posted about this extensively, having built systems to suit. There are other examples globally usually using low voltage inverters, Victron and the like. 

 

I used to have a tube buffer that ran just like this (Gary Dodd design). 

 

Voltage sensitivity is important here, remember a DC system unless having something to regulate voltage in the middle (which usually increases noise) will drop voltage across battery SoC. 

[MLXXX]

10 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

I can safely assume that everyone here on this thread are not 15-18! 

Just because I can’t hear it doesn’t mean it’s not there and someone who’s more younger and in tune can walk in finding it unbearable, Just consider yourself blessed if you don’t hear the hash form inverters.

Teenagers tend to have a more extended upper audio frequency limit of hearing than adults. As a teenager I could hear the vibration from a CRT television set horizontal deflection coil inside a black and white TV set, from across a room.  This would have been at 15.625kHz.  I recall that adults generally could not hear the faint whistling sound.

 

I don't think though that a solar inverter would use a frequency below 20kHz. So I'm not sure a teenager would hear a high pitched sound if they got near an inverter.

 

As for inverter hash carried along power cabling to a household power point,  it would cover a broad spectrum of frequencies but would generally be attenuated to a negligible level by the power supply circuitry of an audiophile device. Theoretically there could be exceptions, i.e. audiophile devices that get triggered into poor performance by even low levels of residual hash in their DC supplies. (And there would be some audiophile devices that would be triggered into poor performance by stray electromagnetic fields.)

 

_____

 

Can anyone point us to a recording of an audio signal that has been adversely affected by power supply hash?  It would be nice to have a concrete example to listen to!

Edited February 12, 2019 by MLXXX

[Addicted to music]

@MLXXX

 

if you watched that link you can see that mains distortion is around 1.68%   And that’s on a good day!   I’ve seen worst and if the waveform goes asymmetrical DC will result.  

What I’d like inverter manufacturers to do is supply a screen shoot of the output from a scope with all the associated measurements on there entire range of inverters they manufacture while under load.  Therefore consumers can make an informed choice.

Like I said I haven’t experienced any hash that’s effecting my rig,  but I did here the old 30yr old Hoover washing machine spiking through the stereo,  or switching off LEDs.  Either don’t concern me now as switching of LEDs you only do to come or go, you’re not standing there playing with the switch, the Hoover packed it in not long ago and the kids forked out for new washing machine.

[MLXXX]

@Addicted to music, I find it annoying that the kitchen microwave oven when operating stops my wi-fi from working properly, actually causing the connection to drop out, even though the wi-fi devices are quite some distance from the kitchen.  (I'm not aware of any effects from the 5kW solar inverter, other than the fact that it reduces my electricity bill!)

[andyr]

28 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

@Addicted to music, I find it annoying that the kitchen microwave oven when operating stops my wi-fi from working properly, actually causing the connection to drop out, even though the wi-fi devices are quite some distance from the kitchen.  (I'm not aware of any effects from the 5kW solar inverter, other than the fact that it reduces my electricity bill!)

 

Our kitchen m/w oven doesn't seem to affect our wifi - or the 4 cordless land-line phones. 

 

Andy

 

[MLXXX]

3 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Our kitchen m/w oven doesn't seem to affect our wifi - or the 4 cordless land-line phones. 

The cordless phones work fine at my place too, it's just the wi-fi.

[rawl99]

4 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Teenagers tend to have a more extended upper audio frequency limit of hearing than adults. As a teenager I could hear the vibration from a CRT television set horizontal deflection coil inside a black and white TV set, from across a room.  This would have been at 15.625kHz.  I recall that adults generally could not hear the faint whistling sound.

 

I don't think though that a solar inverter would use a frequency below 20kHz. So I'm not sure a teenager would hear a high pitched sound if they got near an inverter.

Indee it would be expected to be substantially higher than this.

Quote

As for inverter hash carried along power cabling to a household power point,  it would cover a broad spectrum of frequencies but would generally be attenuated to a negligible level by the power supply circuitry of an audiophile device. Theoretically there could be exceptions, i.e. audiophile devices that get triggered into poor performance by even low levels of residual hash in their DC supplies. (And there would be some audiophile devices that would be triggered into poor performance by stray electromagnetic fields.)

 

_____

 

Can anyone point us to a recording of an audio signal that has been adversely affected by power supply hash?  It would be nice to have a concrete example to listen to!

You keep maintaining that an Audiophile device will generally attenuate hash to a negligible level.

I am again curious as to exact;y what evidence you have to support this ongoing claim/supposition.

You posted a little way back about regulatory requirements re fit-for-purpose etc and that if an audiophile device is affected by hash then it fails the fit-for-purpose requirement of the consumer acts.

The interesting aspect of your comments for me is that if a device is improved in its performance by a power regenerator for example, then that device automatically fails the fit-for-purpose rule and is deemed to be essentially faulty.

Ime there are very very few (essentially none that I have come across) devices that:

a: sound terrific AND

b: are immune to mains variance.

So that suggests that there are very very few devices that are fit-for-purpose as per the consumer codes you talk about.

If I consider all of the electronics in my systems, all of it is affected by the inverter hash, including something as basic as a couple of k avr with a good quality Yamaha keyboard attached to it.  The difference in piano production from the keyboard through avr is significantly better without the inverter connected.  Ditto (and a little more obvious) with the keyboard connected directly through the valve amp.

 

Similarly I use a squeezebox for back-ground music through a pretty decent Dac and it is rather sensitive with its switch-mode wallwart to the mains it gets fed.  That one I have to say threw me for a loop when I figured it out.

 

I have however, heard a number of amplifiers that seemed essentially immune from mains quality but they sounded lifeless and ordinary anyway so they do not rate as good examples.

 

The other comments you have made are that we should be able to digitally record and play-back through headphones, say,  using something like the Zoom H5 and if the effect of the hash is at all relevant/significant then it will be clearly audible through such a setup?

@rmpfyf had some interesting comments/thoughts on this that mirror mine to a large degree.

 

The other quote from you is:

"If the level of the error from the ideal is so subtle and elusive that it cannot be captured using the line input of a reasonable quality portable recorder then I would question whether the matter warrants further attention"

I have to say that I find this to be quite an astonishing comment if you are one who seeks to create as high-a-quality music reproduction as you can.

Some of us are crazy enough to want to achieve a level of reproduction that supersedes that vast majority of "reasonable quality portable recorder(s)"

 

If what you suggest is true then why do we all spend so much time and money on high grade playback devices and why on earth do GOOD studios spend so much money on recording equipment?

Could we not all just buy a $500 digital recorder/playback device because it has 24/96 or better resolution and that will then give us all of the accuracy/resolution one could ever need?

Do you see my point here?  If something like the H5 is accurate enough and resolving enough to show all the effects on devices caused by the hash then why is there any need to waste money on equipment any better than this for 'audiophile' playback?

I am not intending to be a smart-arse with this question; just a bit of perspective,

 

You consistently seem to come from a theory and measurement point of view.

Whilst I think these are valuable tools at the end of the day it is the listening experience that captures and enthrals us.

I have listened to a lot of equipment that measures and specs amazingly that is as unengaging and uninteresting to listen to as it is possible to get.  So whilst the theory and measurements are useful, they are not at all definitive of what the final sound quality will be.

 

Thank you for your interesting and thought-provoking posts good Sir.  Please keep them coming.

 

cheers

Rawl

 

as an interesting ps: a lot!! of audio nut-jobs love single ended amps and high sensitivity speakers.

This combination has an amazing presence, life and naturalness to it.

If we look at the measurements we will find the distortion of such an SE amplifier to be massively higher than a PP with high global feedback.

Very commonly such an SE amplifier design is VERY minimilist and will be highly impacted by mains quality.

Does that make it a poor amplifier??