Impact of using Solar power on audio equipment and sound quality

[Benje]

SA Water is well managed in government hands.......

[crisis]

15 minutes ago, Benje said:

SA Water is well managed in government hands.......

I sense some sarcasm?

[Guest rmpfyf]

3 hours ago, crisis said:

We can debate the "what if" but in private hands the sole reason to do anything is to make a profit. In public hands the profit imperative (used to) be secondarily at best.

 

Same imperative in public hands, a slack public organisation hikes taxes and degrades service quality all the same. Swings/roundabouts.

 

We're all way OT now.

[crisis]

18 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Same imperative in public hands, a slack public organisation hikes taxes and degrades service quality all the same. Swings/roundabouts.

 

We're all way OT now.

While that may have been the case it can be fixed and doesn't need privatisation as a solution. And it wont be run to a price.

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 minute ago, crisis said:

While that may have been the case it can be fixed and doesn't need privatisation as a solution. And it wont be run to a price.

 

Yeah nah - it's just where you pay, this notion of a difference simply because public corporations need turn a profit is fanciful. Neither are things run to a price. We'd likely be way, way in the past with renewables and the rest of it if not privatised. It's not all bad.

 

What I can tell you with some good certainty is that solar power shouldn't a** up your SQ unless sensitive to voltage rise, and some inverters are a bit special about how they create mains electricity.

[crisis]

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Yeah nah - it's just where you pay, this notion of a difference simply because public corporations need turn a profit is fanciful. Neither are things run to a price. We'd likely be way, way in the past with renewables and the rest of it if not privatised. It's not all bad.

Well we will have to disagree. Private enterprise exists to maximize profit. They annually cut costs of doing business (almost exclusively by cutting staff and therefore "service") to maximize profits. I don't blame them. Thats capitalism. But its no place for essential services. As far as the cost to government it is irrelevant. Taxes rarely pay for these things  (although I do wonder how we are paying more tax and having less publicly owned services in return..) . Governments have unfortunately become like businesses now.

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

 

What I can tell you with some good certainty is that solar power shouldn't a** up your SQ unless sensitive to voltage rise, and some inverters are a bit special about how they create mains electricity.

I have wondered because I cant really compare because Iv only had my new system since we have had solar. FWIW there doesn't appear to be any audible interference at least.

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 minute ago, crisis said:

Well we will have to disagree. Private enterprise exists to maximize profit. They annually cut costs of doing business (almost exclusively by cutting staff and therefore "service") to maximize profits. I don't blame them. Thats capitalism. But its no place for essential services. As far as the cost to government it is irrelevant. Taxes rarely pay for these things  (although I do wonder how we are paying more tax and having less publicly owned services in return..) . Governments have unfortunately become like businesses now.

 

Federalisation of the grid without the fed government buying it all off the states meant there had to be constructs to trade energy, which meant there had to be markets, which meant there had to be profits, which etc etc. And some states did decide to keep things fully owned, though it didn't stop their issues, improve quality of service or keep prices down. Costs to government aren't irrelevant - in part we pay 'em. And the federalisation but isn't a bad thing, quite good for the most part.

 

I would have preferred that transmission and distribution ('poles and wires') wasn't a privatised thing nor a thing that were cut into so many pieces across the country. There's no consistent service experience, and getting rules/regs happening here is slow on account of the sheer number of parties to placate (some of which are still government owned). From there there's nothing wrong with generation and wholesaling being a market public and privates can bid into... bu these are my ramblings, and everyone's got a point of view here. 

 

18 minutes ago, crisis said:

I have wondered because I cant really compare because Iv only had my new system since we have had solar. FWIW there doesn't appear to be any audible interference at least.

 

Voltage rise hurts some of us with sensitive kit  Guess its kinda tedious to look at waveforms for otherwise same conditions given different inverters in the same house... though surely someone somewhere's done something similar. May Google-fu later on...

[Southerly]

rmpfyf - privatisation is always tghe most expensive option - boards of directors who award themselves huge paypackets/share optioons and wonderful pensions only enjoyed by board members - please don't try to b/s on this. You are continuously tub thumping from personal interest, it's pointless to deny this.

 

To all those members who have corroborated what I posted - nice to know that a lot of Aussies are wise to the neo-liberal b/s. People buy shares to get dividends, the meatier the better. - who pays those dividends the mug consumer. private companies will always try to cut their expenses (upgrading/maintenance) and maximise their profits. We don't need to debate this further do we?

 

Of course most places that people live don't have win d 24/7 that's not what I said. I looked into these all singing and dancing storage tanks and their control systems cost - they don't come cheap. There is a mantra attributed to salesmen/women - KISS - keep it simple stupid - I say it's a mantra for everyone, all the time.

 

The more complicated systems are, the more likely for something to go wrong and then you need a 'specialist' who will screw you. The 'professional' quoted tubed water heating systems which can be destroyed by extreme weather conditions and which tend to use anti-freeze (not nice chemicals there). the simplest systems only applicable in frost free environments are so simple that you could make one yourself. Like all other solar water systems, temps can get very high and that's where modern thinking and simple shading make a huge difference.

 

I have researched wood burning stoves here in Europe and I'm not impressed. Most don't have a means to use external air supplies, OK in drafty old French houses, if your mug enough to buy one. However in a properly built insulated property, if you don't want to die from carbon monoxide poisoning they are a must. I'm amazed at how much of the heat generated by these stoves is allowed to escape up the chimney - how about feeding a cold water supply by flexible copper tubing around the flue stack before being fed into an electric hot water tank. Not difficult at all. By using an external air supply that feeds the firebox intelligently it's possibel to have an open fire door, the difference in heat output is enormous and totally safe.

 

Here's another idea that can and should be used with any heat source - properly engineered ceiling fans. I shall be buying 2 of these for my L shaped lounge - noise 5-6dB, 5 settings using from 7 - 35W, remotely controlled, choices for fan blade lengths and stems. Taker a temperature reading at seating level and one at ceiling height - you may be surprised. Solar energy from windows in winter is wonderful and free - just shade those windows in summer and keep out the unwanted heat. Using lightweight  internal insulated shutters in winter make a huge difference. Here in Europe nearly all houses use German made electronic plastic external shutters - guess what you live in darkness and if you get a power shut down - they stay down.

 

I agree with the member (crisis?) who talked about roof damage, scaffolders are notorious and with modern crap built roofs in France, you wouldn't  believe the flimsy timbers they use. I also agree about guarantees, if an installer has gone bust what are they worth and the best one is the 10 year one, normally the material fails in the 11th year.

 

My advice is simple do not trust anything any company says about anything - the only reviews that have value are user reviews. research, research and then more research before you shell out for anything - caveat emptor - buyer beware.

 

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

3 hours ago, Southerly said:

rmpfyf - privatisation is always tghe most expensive option - boards of directors who award themselves huge paypackets/share optioons and wonderful pensions only enjoyed by board members - please don't try to b/s on this. You are continuously tub thumping from personal interest, it's pointless to deny this.

 

Tub thumping - as are you. Huge paypackets and pensions - as do pollies and government workers.

 

Anyone really believing that 'government owned' implies 'fully government owned, nuts to bolts, no intervention from corporate fat cats' is welcome to read up on the history of the Liddell Power Station to get a better understanding of why the Libs/Nats don't want it closed. 

 

I don't doubt there's profiteering to be made in privatisation though people thinking this alone is the sole or otherwise main reason energy prices are what they are in Australia are oversimplifying the issue to the point of doing themselves a (particularly ignorant) disservice. I personally don't think everything in our utility chain should have been privatised, though what we had was similarly unworkable for a number of things we enjoy today (renewables penetration being one). I'm happy to have a discussion if you're ready to move beyond platitudes, though if you're done at 'privatisation=bad' then I guess we're here.

 

3 hours ago, Southerly said:

I looked into these all singing and dancing storage tanks and their control systems cost - they don't come cheap. There is a mantra attributed to salesmen/women - KISS - keep it simple stupid - I say it's a mantra for everyone, all the time.

 

A storage tank with a resistive element and a variable power controller following PV export is about as simple as it gets. Solid state, very little to break, save your roof area for more PV, 20 year+ system life. Bill of materials cost on these controllers is well under a controller/pump/piping/etc for solar thermal, and they work better in colder periods too when a solar thermal system is looking for a temperature difference that won't come. And you don't need a plumber beyond what you needed to install your tank. In most cases payback is under two years. Very simple.

 

Don't know what you mean by 'singing and dancing storage tanks' - a bone-stock electric water storage vessel is all that's required. Not even one prepared for solar thermal, just a stock, not-modified-for-anything tank. Usually the one people already have at home if electric, using the same electrode. A sparkie unplugs supply, replaces that with output from a box,  plugs that box into mains, a CT on mains and comms back to your inverter. Done. Somewhat simpler than tubes on a roof.

 

3 hours ago, Southerly said:

I also agree about guarantees, if an installer has gone bust what are they worth and the best one is the 10 year one, normally the material fails in the 11th year.

 

Unfortunately our solar industry here is considerably younger than the warranties offered on parts provided by the industry. 

 

Part warranties (and performance warranties) are interesting, whilst Chinese solar panels are driving the industry average price down their debt/equity ratios are not endearing, and their ability to send someone out to your house in the even you had an issue with their product is extremely limited. Accordingly I tend to use one specific brand of panel that meets best supply and aftersales requirements locally, and would suggest buyers consider as much when shopping.

[Southerly]

Check out thermosiphonic water heating - this is as simple as it gets. Normally using a storage tank mounted on the roof, no need to use nasty anti-freeze. Also systems using polymer material that can freeze and unfreeze without damage. For those who quite rightly are worried about roof damage solar water heating systems can also set up on the ground, with a thermosiphonic system you would need then to use a pump.

 

Of course the real place to start with energy saving is to have a house built with an intelligent design and with the right materials. Whenever I see a new build house with one or more a/c units installed I know it's a piece of crap. The prime directive is that a house should be built that has exterior walls that provide an effective barrier between an external and internal environment. Internally there should be privacy between rooms. I can say with certainty that none of this is possible with the latest building Regs. 2012 here in France.  Once again I urge people to check out aircrete blocks, if they are not available in Oz here's an excellent business opportunity for those with energy to get involved in.

 

Something that hasn't been mentioned by anyone and something I wasn't aware of until a couple of years ago - PV panels lose efficiency with increased heat and let's not forget that maximum efficiency achieved at best is 22% (normally 17%). If you live in an urban setting as most Aussies/Europeans do then your options are limited. Something that most people don't even think about - the modern life is only possible with a constant supply of electricity, take that away and you have no choice but to step back centuries, a sobering thought which influences me totally in materials and house design - the less electricity I need, the easier for me to realistically provide my own supply.

 

 

 

 

[Addicted to music]

10 hours ago, Southerly said:

Check out thermosiphonic water heating - this is as simple as it gets. Normally using a storage tank mounted on the roof, no need to use nasty anti-freeze. Also systems using polymer material that can freeze and unfreeze without damage. For those who quite rightly are worried about roof damage solar water heating systems can also set up on the ground, with a thermosiphonic system you would need then to use a pump.

 

This looks like most system introduced here in Melb around the 2000 to get new builds to be efficient, either this or a water tank!    Typical heat exchange panels that uses a 20 watt pump that cycles the water from the panels back to the a storage tank that’s usually built cheaply made of  vitreous enamel steel.  

I had this system up on my roof for 10yrs and finally ripped it off becuase the maintenance required was a killer and the cost was astronomical that out weigh the benefits.   

In the initial 12 mths the thermostat triggered that need replacement, not only did this happen but it happen a few more times becuase they calibrate the tank temp to turn off the pump at 90C, the cut of on the thermalstat was stated 95C.    

2ndly within 18 mths I wondered why nice green grass was growing on the guttering.   One of 3 heat exchange panels sprung a leak and it was pissing into the guttering helping assisting weed growth.  That got replaced for $400 becuase it was dual level residency, even though the system had a warranty for 5yrs on “certain parts including the panels”. The labour was only 12 mths, this means everytime that I had an issue I had to pay for someone to come out and paid them by the hour in 15min blocks.  To continue, I didn’t have one panel leaked I had a 2nd Panel do the same thing.  By this time,  the manufacturer decided to replaced all of the panel on the roof.  Now not only that,  because it was gas boosted assisted the solenoid that controls gas also went at a cost of $400.  

Finally in the 3rd year they send a specialist to check and recalibrated the system which basically involves checking and calibrating the thermal voltages it was getting back to the microprocessor.  Hence I told him to set the threshold in the tank to turn the pump off at 80-85C.  This reduces thermal efficiency but it also stopped the thermalstat from triggering rendering the system useless.

And finally what they don’t tell you in the fine print, which has possible changed now due to ACCC is that Melb suffers temps below 5C in winter months, to stop the heat exchange panels from cracking, there is a small valve that opens up and lets mains water into the guttering and out into the stormwater drain,  this will continue until the temp is above 5C, all to assist to stopped the panels from cracking.  Imagine that,  opening a tap for xx hours until the temp goes above 5C!  They all do it regardless of what solar  hotwater system you use, and they all use heat exchange panels! 

And the final nail to the coffin is that the tank is made of vitreous enamel steel that requires a self sacrificing anode, this usual cost around $700 to replacement including labour and is recommended to be replaced every 3-4 yrs. depending on water hardness.    if you’re going for this type of system and most solar hot water are, make sure they use a marine grade stainless steel tank due to the hardness in the water.

Finally ripping this system out and using conventional gas storage with a 135ltr stainless steel tank that cost $1650 to installed,  not $7-8K for another solar hotwater system, this is the 2nd year and I haven’t had a service call yet,  this means this system is far more cost effective and I would even bet that it’s environmentally friendly compared to any solar heating, becuase it’s reliable and won’t required parts replacement like faulty heat panels that requires manufacturing that ended up in metal recycling;  a system isn’t evironmentally friendly if it requires maintenance and parts replaced,, it create an industry thats good for the economy, so it’s not in the best interest for Mother Nature but real cleaver in emptying your pockets.

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Addicted to music

[Guest rmpfyf]

10 hours ago, Southerly said:

Check out thermosiphonic water heating - this is as simple as it gets. Normally using a storage tank mounted on the roof, no need to use nasty anti-freeze. Also systems using polymer material that can freeze and unfreeze without damage. For those who quite rightly are worried about roof damage solar water heating systems can also set up on the ground, with a thermosiphonic system you would need then to use a pump.

 

These require a surprising amount of maintenance typically - I'd suggest @Addicted to music has that covered. PV into electric diversion is easier, wither resistive element, heat pump or both. Usual caveats apply regards a good tank and all manner of things to check for heat pump selection. 

 

10 hours ago, Southerly said:

Of course the real place to start with energy saving is to have a house built with an intelligent design and with the right materials. Whenever I see a new build house with one or more a/c units installed I know it's a piece of crap. The prime directive is that a house should be built that has exterior walls that provide an effective barrier between an external and internal environment. Internally there should be privacy between rooms. I can say with certainty that none of this is possible with the latest building Regs. 2012 here in France.  Once again I urge people to check out aircrete blocks, if they are not available in Oz here's an excellent business opportunity for those with energy to get involved in.

 

Ease up there tiger, people tend to buy what they can afford and what they want in a manner less binary than 'one or more a/c units installed I know it's a piece of crap'. A home with an outdoor condenser unit is a home with an outdoor condenser, it can be there for whatever reason be it a heat pump, space heating or cooling, whatever. 

 

Where dwelling sizes are small it's certainly possible to achieve good thermal performance with good insulation. The Nightingale project is a great example of this in the Melbourne metro area. 

 

Products similar to aircrete have existed or some time. It's neither the only way to skin that cat. 

 

10 hours ago, Southerly said:

Something that hasn't been mentioned by anyone and something I wasn't aware of until a couple of years ago - PV panels lose efficiency with increased heat and let's not forget that maximum efficiency achieved at best is 22% (normally 17%). If you live in an urban setting as most Aussies/Europeans do then your options are limited. Something that most people don't even think about - the modern life is only possible with a constant supply of electricity, take that away and you have no choice but to step back centuries, a sobering thought which influences me totally in materials and house design - the less electricity I need, the easier for me to realistically provide my own supply.

 

Mentioned in other posts, degradation is normal. To be fair most people don't take a look at thermal curves when shopping - yesterday down south was a great example (very sunny, very hot, no one's getting best PV performance). There is plenty that can be done - from panel selection, roof and coating selection to keep heat low and efficiency high. I'm designing the roof for my second home array to this end as we speak. 

 

You touch on a point lost on many around the less electricity needed; we have in industry a somewhat raging interest around battery energy storage which I'd suggest is (incorrectly) focussed on bigger and bigger batteries, when it should instead tend towards good insulation allowing multiple storage options (including thermal), decreased consumption, 'the right amount' of battery and intelligent grid use where required. 

[MLXXX]

There is a clear economic incentive to deferring power consumption to times of solar production if the grid retailer allows the householder a low feed-in tariff credit, such as 15 cents per kilowatt hour for solar inverter power exported to the grid,  but charges the householder a higher rate for any consumption from the grid,  such as 30c per kWh.

 

One question that interests me is how a variable power diverter manages to modify the waveform sent to a resistive element hot water system, and how a supply authority kWh meter could be expected to react to that waveform. One circuit diagram I've seen involves the use of a BTA41 TRIAC (see http://mk2pvrouter.co.uk/33001.html). TRIACs can be used in leading edge light dimmers. Trailing edge light dimmers can use MOSFETs.

 

Do kilowatt hour meters in use in Australia average things out over several cycles, or not?  It seems to me that there is scope for a power diverter not to give the desired cost savings unless the way it modifies the waveform (together with the way the solar inverter modifies its output current in the course of each cycle of the mains frequency), is compatible with the way the kilowatt hour meter measures consumption and export.

 

My question above may be a bit too technical, and off-topic, for this thread.

 

I don't think the use of a power diverter would be likely to generate noticeable interference for audiophile devices, but it does seem possible given the relatively high power rating of a hot water heating element, 3.6kW being quite common.

[frankn]

@MLXXX what do you pay for grid electricity now, Kw/Hr?

What is the current feed in tariff is for new solar connections?

[MLXXX]

@frankn, I'm away from home but very roughly the figures I gave above, i.e. retailer charges you 30c per kWh for what you consume, and credits you only 15c for what you export to the grid.

 

In Qld for older installations some 40-odd cents per kWh is credited for exports so it is the reverse situation for people in Qld who installed their systems many years ago. They need to defer their consumption to times when solar production is low.

[frankn]

If you are installing now It’s all over the place as far as I can see.

Fwiw : one example. SA , Origin. 40c Kw/hr for grid.   Feed-in tariff 10c for new connections.  

You can pay more for grid / get more for feed-in if you purchase a solar system from Origin. 

You might get better deals in SA. Not sure.  Isnt it about what you pay if you sign up now?

QLD/NSW/VIC might have better deals of course. 

 

[mwhouston]

Impact of solar on audio.

 

Of course if you have inverters with your solar your whole house hums SMPS. And all outlets pour out high frequency hash.

 

But then we are all joined at the grid so we all cop it!

 

Correct me if I’m wrong. 

 

 

[Southerly]

Addicted to music - thermosiphonic systems are only for frost free regions. As I said you don't have to have a system mounted on the roof. Solar hot water systems used in southern Spain don't seem to have the problems you have had - vitreous enamel tanks are a no-no.

 

mpfyf - you are making excuses for building materials that should have been dropped decades ago. Do you have any actual experience of aircrete blocks. 30cm blocks are all that are needed to acheive excellent thermal insulation - (1) single operation and no need to use plaster inside, skim coat any minor imperfections, 1200 grade lining paper and use organic paint 9no caqncer risk) fireproof/insect proof and an excellent acoustic value.

 

Since labour is the key factor nowadays, it makes using these blocks a cheaper, far better alternative to traditional materials - it's not a case of what people can afford, nor forgetting that fireproof and insect proof has to mean cheaper insurance. It comes down to the same thing here in Europe - vested interest and governments bowing to the interests of big business.

 

So there are similar products to aircrete - give me online refs.  so I can check out how they compare and if these products are comparable in their benefits - why aren't they being used?

[Addicted to music]

8 hours ago, Southerly said:

Addicted to music - thermosiphonic systems are only for frost free regions. As I said you don't have to have a system mounted on the roof. Solar hot water systems used in southern Spain don't seem to have the problems you have had - vitreous enamel tanks are a no-no.

 

If your going to check out heat pumps, check out this:

 

https://www.sanden-hot-water.com.au/sites/all/themes/sanden/Sanden_Brochure_131112.pdf

 

Probably not market in EU.  But this is what I mean, stainless steel tank specified as you can see with the long warranty, 315lts of it, note also there say there is no backup heater element as some will have  as a back up, so it’s not really all that efficient or effective if you have a large family of greater than 4.  If you have a household of 4 plus you better make sure they have short showers both morning and night, becuase it takes 4hrs to heat 315lts @ 20C ambient temp.  

Unlike the others that have a tiny compressor and it’s built into the unit,  this means both storage tank and compressor are likely to be service and can be replaced  separately.  If you look at the others where the compressor is built into the tank for efficiency,  if the tank leaks it means the whole unit will have to be replaced.  

To take 4hrs to reach a temp of 60-65C for a 315 tank defeats the convienecy factor and when you need 4hrs to do it also defeat the efficiency where natural gas will do that at a fraction of the time, but....if you have a array of PV panels that can drive this system then it’s all systems go.

 

8 hours ago, Southerly said:

 

you are making excuses for building materials that should have been dropped decades ago. Do you have any actual experience of aircrete blocks. 30cm blocks are all that are needed to acheive excellent thermal insulation - (1) single operation and no need to use plaster inside, skim coat any minor imperfections, 1200 grade lining paper and use organic paint 9no caqncer risk) fireproof/insect proof and an excellent acoustic value.

 

Since labour is the key factor nowadays, it makes using these blocks a cheaper, far better alternative to traditional materials - it's not a case of what people can afford, nor forgetting that fireproof and insect proof has to mean cheaper insurance. It comes down to the same thing here in Europe - vested interest and governments bowing to the interests of big business.

 

So there are similar products to aircrete - give me online refs.  so I can check out how they compare and if these products are comparable in their benefits - why aren't they being used?

Aircrete is a great idea, it’s just typical Australians that prefer to use typical building materials in typical high volume builders.  

Note that they have gone one step cheaper using some styrofoam and rendering outside,  which is cheaper than aircrete easier to form, but easily damaged!  

Edited January 26, 2019 by Addicted to music

[proftournesol]

I have a Sanden heat pump system. The SS tanks are made locally, in Albury.

We've had six people showering in our house and never run out of hot water, even in winter

[Addicted to music]

3 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

I have a Sanden heat pump system. The SS tanks are made locally, in Albury.

We've had six people showering in our house and never run out of hot water, even in winter

You don’t have one daughter who takes 15-20 minutes.....

[Guest rmpfyf]

9 hours ago, Southerly said:

rmpfyf - you are making excuses for building materials that should have been dropped decades ago. Do you have any actual experience of aircrete blocks. 30cm blocks are all that are needed to acheive excellent thermal insulation - (1) single operation and no need to use plaster inside, skim coat any minor imperfections, 1200 grade lining paper and use organic paint 9no caqncer risk) fireproof/insect proof and an excellent acoustic value.

 

Since labour is the key factor nowadays, it makes using these blocks a cheaper, far better alternative to traditional materials - it's not a case of what people can afford, nor forgetting that fireproof and insect proof has to mean cheaper insurance. It comes down to the same thing here in Europe - vested interest and governments bowing to the interests of big business.

 

So there are similar products to aircrete - give me online refs.  so I can check out how they compare and if these products are comparable in their benefits - why aren't they being used?

 

And you're trying to make a flame war/pissing contest where it doesn't exist. Again.

 

Yes, have experience with similar products to Aircrete (autoclaved aerated concrete or just AAC, Aircrete is a trademark), whilst there are many advantages You can buy AAC at Bunnings - just Google it - and blocks are available from CSR Hebel, Bastion, Xcalibre. It's not the cheapest way to build a house, and depending what you're doing insulation requirements can be met other ways - an extension we built recently would have been prohibitively thick with AAC to hit our insulation target. I'd not be in a rush to label anything not AAC 'traditional' either, AAC is nearly 100 years old.

 

You're welcome to look around the 'net yourself, though there is a government reference not providing support one way or the other, and just information http://www.yourhome.gov.au/materials/autoclaved-aerated-concrete. No conspiracies. 

 

44 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

If your going to check out heat pumps, check out this:

 

https://www.sanden-hot-water.com.au/sites/all/themes/sanden/Sanden_Brochure_131112.pdf

 

Probably not market in EU.  But this is what I mean, stainless steel tank specified as you can see with the long warranty, 315lts of it, note also there say there is no backup heater element as some will have  as a back up, so it’s not really all that efficient or effective if you have a large family of greater than 4.  If you have a household of 4 plus you better make sure they have short showers both morning and night, becuase it takes 4hrs to heat 315lts @ 20C ambient temp.  

Unlike the others that have a tiny compressor and it’s built into the unit,  this means both storage tank and compressor are likely to be service and can be replaced  separately.  If you look at the others where the compressor is built into the tank for efficiency,  if the tank leaks it means the whole unit will have to be replaced.  

To take 4hrs to reach a temp of 60-65C for a 315 tank defeats the convienecy factor and when you need 4hrs to do it also defeat the efficiency where natural gas will do that at a fraction of the time, but....if you have a array of PV panels that can drive this system then it’s all systems go.

 

The Sanden is a nice unit. 

 

DId a moderately large house for a family of 6 once with a hydro kit off a reversible VRF doing zoned thermal needs. House had PV. Would take 400L of water from ambient to 65 degC in under 45 minutes off the heat pump only - tank had a boost element but rarely used. Whilst it costs more if a house is large enough we can take a more European approach and use a central, large, efficient reversible HP for many things.

 

As with all else heat pumps can work and work well - just need to be designed/sized/applied right.

 

(I still suggest people install a boost element - cold showers aren't fun). 

[Addicted to music]

Mixed reviews on the Sanden here:

 

https://www.productreview.com.au/p/sanden-heat-pump.html

 

Note also with the Rinnai system they have allocated a post code for there product to operate, note particular the effects on warranty outside these post code.

 

https://www.rinnai.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Rinnai-Electric-Heat-Pump-Web-Page_FA_16-7-18.pdf

 

 

[proftournesol]

5 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

You don’t have one daughter who takes 15-20 minutes.....

no, but I have a 24-year old that takes 15 minutes.

It doesn't change as they get older

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

Note also with the Rinnai system they have allocated a post code for there product to operate, note particular the effects on warranty outside these post code.

 

https://www.rinnai.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Rinnai-Electric-Heat-Pump-Web-Page_FA_16-7-18.pdf

 

 

 

Nothing unexpected there, doesn’t mean they’re bad or low quality, just designed to work in a different ambient.

 

There’s nothing quite as brute-force-effective as an electrode in tank.

 

Somewhere there’s an article on the year round energy costs of a heat pump vs other systems city by city for the majors. Worth a find...