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NBN SkyMuster satellite experience


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OK, I've finally bitten the bullet. We'd had a really flaky ADSL connection through a really good ISP (Internode) for 10 years, it was becoming more and more of a problem with frequent dropouts, slow connection speeds of <1MB/s, still, most of the time we could stream Netflix and Amazon Prime, Foxtel, SBS On Demand etc, as well as streaming 3RRR radio and Spotify. We regularly used 100GB a month. We're only 5km from the exchange but there's not even a consideration for fibre or even wireless NBN for us, the only option is SkyMuster, 2 high orbit geostationary satellites originally envisaged to provide NBN remote access, but now the default situation for any area that may threaten the profitablility of NBNCo. If it isn't profitable then Laberal can't eventually sell it to their corporate mates, so, this is now a prime determinant of who gets what connection outside urban centres.

 

We decided to connect with SkyMesh (that I keep calling SkyNet in a Freudian slip of the tongue)

The connection process was actually a breeze, totally uneventful, although we did need a new modem (that arrived pre-configured by SkyMesh" and was truly plug'n'play

The user experience is more mixed, we paid for a 25MBs connection and we reliably have 20 to 24 so I'm happy with that aspect. Latency is a big problem, even though web pages actually load quickly, there's such a lag between clicking on a link and something starting to happen that it's actually no faster to use in everyday browsing than our slow ADSL. Files download quickly (as you'd expect) and that's a big bonus, however, the big problem is streaming: now that we have a faster connection speed, maybe we can take advantage of our 4K OLED TV? No. I've had to manually throttle every streaming service to SD, otherwise, we'll use all our data allowance in around 2 weeks. This will never change, satellites are expensive and there'll never be a third SkyMuster launched. So, we are left with a service that costs nearly double, is more reliable, but is no faster to use when browsing and provides reliable SD streaming. Thank you Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull (and of course Rupert) for turning what was a social equity principle into a future profit centre to be eventually sold off to your corporate mates, and, that as a result, provides a second-rate experience for rural citizens.

 

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OK, I've ..... Thank you Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull (and of course Rupert) for


I don’t like these guys... but satellite was bipartisan.

Why? Because it was not the politicians idea. The ideas came from people in the communications industry, and represent the best idea that could actually ever get built within a not insane budget and timeframe.

I’m not trying to tell you that you should be happy ... just that conflating this as partisan, or as a “stuff up”, is not a good analysis.

I assume you have no reasonable cellular services in your location? (Eg. with specific antenna). The 3G/4G network is very different from NBN, but cellular will give you unlimited data, on a best effort basis - which seems to be what you want.

Satellite NBN could also do this, however they would kill their capability to provide a universal opportunity of reliable 25mbps to everyone. You might he happy with >5x longer than people in the city to receive my important business email” was the primary use case.
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58 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 


I don’t like these guys... but satellite was bipartisan.

Why? Because it was not the politicians idea. The ideas came from people in the communications industry, and represent the best idea that could actually ever get built within a not insane budget and timeframe.

I’m not trying to tell you that you should be happy ... just that conflating this as partisan, or as a “stuff up”, is not a good analysis.

I assume you have no reasonable cellular services in your location? (Eg. with specific antenna). The 3G/4G network is very different from NBN, but cellular will give you unlimited data, on a best effort basis - which seems to be what you want.

Satellite NBN could also do this, however they would kill their capability to provide a universal opportunity of reliable 25mbps to everyone. You might he happy with >5x longer than people in the city to receive my important business email” was the primary use case.

 

Yes, I have 2 phone towers (Optus & Telstra) within 1km but 'unlimited' 4G data is well out of my price range (and everyones). Unfortunately, phone towers aren't used for NBN too (yes, I understand that range etc is different). The problem is that, for the life of the satellites, SkyMuster will never change, the data limits will stay and speed is capped at 25MB/s. Meanwhile, the city-based user experience will only improve and get cheaper. Maybe SpaceX's mesh satellite network will offer a better experience in a few years?

 

Do you think that the NBN network designers really anticipated the demand for data? Average rural monthly data downloads are approaching 100GB, most of these SkyMuster users will be disappointed

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1 hour ago, proftournesol said:

 

The user experience is more mixed, we paid for a 25MBs connection and we reliably have 20 to 24 so I'm happy with that aspect. Latency is a big problem, even though web pages actually load quickly, there's such a lag between clicking on a link and something starting to happen that it's actually no faster to use in everyday browsing than our slow ADSL. Files download quickly (as you'd expect) and that's a big bonus, however, the big problem is streaming: now that we have a faster connection speed, maybe we can take advantage of our 4K OLED TV? No. I've had to manually throttle every streaming service to SD, otherwise, we'll use all our data allowance in around 2 weeks. This will never change, satellites are expensive and there'll never be a third SkyMuster launched. So, we are left with a service that costs nearly double, is more reliable, but is no faster to use when browsing and provides reliable SD streaming. 

 

Prof

 

Sorry you've lost unlimited usage; buffering overnight is acceptable if it doesn't kill your service experience which it now will. Time to get a mail-order Blu-Ray service! 

 

I know your local Telstra 4G service well, it's very fast with a good backhaul and line-of-sight to a lot of homes in the area. 

 

Sky Muster is great for those that didn't have anything before and better than what the Masters of MTM were campaigning for (frankly it's the one part of NBN where we got a lot for the $2B spend), though if you had a working ADSL connection it'd certainly cramp your style.

 

Have the locals gotten together about working out costs to supply an alternate technology solution? I assume this has happened - how did it go? There's a process with NBN Co., some choose to go down that road though it's much like trying to convince everyone living on a dirt road that they should have to have it asphalted... it's not cheap and consensus is hard.

 

If there's any consolation the NBN solution I get will last me at least 50 years and is compromised, Sky Muster satellites are done in about 15 and you'll have something better by then for sure.

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50 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

Do you think that the NBN network designers really anticipated the demand for data? Average rural monthly data downloads are approaching 100GB, most of these SkyMuster users will be disappointed

 

That's only a small amount these days.    We burn off 200-300GB most months, and we don't use 4K, just HD.

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20 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

That's only a small amount these days.    We burn off 200-300GB most months, and we don't use 4K, just HD.

I'd use that much if I could use 4K on the TV and use Tidal instead of Spotify. Unfortunately Spotify and Amazon Prime don't provide for off-peak downloads and I'm not getting up at 1am!

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45 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Prof

 

Sorry you've lost unlimited usage; buffering overnight is acceptable if it doesn't kill your service experience which it now will. Time to get a mail-order Blu-Ray service! 

 

1

Not the same range or convenience of course. The whole public rationale for NBN was to provide equivalent infrastructure for country people. Rather than force migrants to live in rural areas with no jobs, poor schools, public transport and the internet, just improve the infrastructure and jobs and people will follow. Of course that can't be done on the cheap in a way that provides large profits for PPPs so it won't happen

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Yes, I have 2 phone towers (Optus & Telstra) within 1km but 'unlimited' 4G data is well out of my...


Optus offer 200GB/month for $60 on contract. It’s all relative I guess, but if you want more data, this has it.... of course it’s a different service than NBN is designed to be. Your service will depend a lot on your area and your equipment.
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The problem is that, for the life of the satellites, SkyMuster will never change, the data limits will stay and speed is capped at 25MB/s


It is a problem, although the life of the satellites is (originally intended) to be relatively short in the whole scheme of things... which perhaps gives you an insight into how much some of the alternatives would cost.
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Do you think that the NBN network designers really anticipated the demand for data?

Yes. They did. FWIW we are actually BEHIND what typical predictions were in data growth.

Like I said characterising this as a “stuff up” is poor analysis.

The reality is that there was no other option which would deliver 25mbps ... in a timeframe people would accept... at a cost people would accept.

You could triple the cost (easily) of the NBN, or you could deny regionals any NBN services for a long time (or a combination of both) but the average citizen was not willing to accept that.

There are planned (and should be depending on the politics) further rounds of NBN which move quite a few people off satellite and on to some other sort of wireless... which could pave the way for fewer restrictions and higher speeds for the remaining satellite users (or whatever replaces satellte). Contrary to your use of the word ‘never’.
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It's likely the SpaceX service will be a better user experience as long as the price is competitive. Of course, it's hypothetical at the moment but SpaceX are pretty good at delivering on their promises. 

Alternative technologies may be more expensive but it does seem that 'build it once, build it right' is a cheaper option in the long run. Most other technologies can run from a fibreoptic backbone, the leave SkyMuster for those that are truly remote and that gives them a decent service with greater bandwidth and data allowance. We seem to have deep pockets when it comes to submarines or fighters, not when it comes to infrastructure as it's suddenly 'expensive' and 'not profitable' (of course military spending or $1billion on a train line for Adani are exempt from these considerations) 

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2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:


Yes. They did. FWIW we are actually BEHIND what typical predictions were in data growth.

Like I said characterising this as a “stuff up” is poor analysis.

The reality is that there was no other option which would deliver 25mbps ... in a timeframe people would accept... at a cost people would accept.

You could triple the cost (easily) of the NBN, or you could deny regionals any NBN services for a long time (or a combination of both) but the average citizen was not willing to accept that.

There are planned (and should be depending on the politics) further rounds of NBN which move quite a few people off satellite and on to some other sort of wireless... which could pave the way for fewer restrictions and higher speeds for the remaining satellite users (or whatever replaces satellte). Contrary to your use of the word ‘never’.

According to the NBN response to the Senate Enquiry, SkyMuster is the 'Goldilocks Solution': people will be moved to other technologies if the takeup is too high or too low. The real long-term problem is the demand that NBNCo is profitable, it leaves satellite users paying almost double the cost for a lower quality service. The Optus FTTP connection that I have in Melbourne gives me 50MB/s, uncapped data and $70 per month. I imagine that in a year or two I'll have higher speeds and lower prices in Melbourne and exactly the same in the country. It just perpetuates the city/country divide (although of course lots or urban users are also on SkyMuster. Personally, I think that most people would prefer to pay more tax for decent infrastructure

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9 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

That is assuming NBN is either not sold, or sold with very sold regulation still in tact

If it were up the Coal-ition, it'd be sold to their mates ASAP. Of course, citizens would then get all the 'advantages' that privatisation has brought to other essential services.

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1 hour ago, proftournesol said:

Do you think that the NBN network designers really anticipated the demand for data? Average rural monthly data downloads are approaching 100GB, most of these SkyMuster users will be disappointed

 

Yes, they do, that planning is normal. As mentioned we're not chewing through it quite fast enough which in part explains the rather exceptional 4G service you have in your area.

 

The rest of this turned into a repeated, epic whinge pretty quick. You live rural. Some things are cheaper. Some conveniences are more expensive. Streaming 4k video at will is likely a convenience. 

 

16 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

It's likely the SpaceX service will be a better user experience as long as the price is competitive. Of course, it's hypothetical at the moment but SpaceX are pretty good at delivering on their promises. 

 

Bullroar. There's a car not quite orbiting Mars as promised and a centre section that can't quite land as promised that you'd have to have an IV line of Kool-aid to believe in. Starlink is a great and extremely ambitious idea - literally thousands of satellites are required in multiple planes around earth - comparing Sky Muster with it is extremely pointless. Starlink might get you a usable, cost-effective internet service in a few years and that'd be great. For everyone. It won't cost the $2B Sky Muster cost us whilst Starlink was a sketch on a napkin or so. Sky Muster is a good thing that brings some internet to people that don't have it. It's a shame with NBN that some simply lost out in dropping ADSL.

 

Stuff will get cheaper irrespective of who provides it. That's a good thing. If you don't like the satellite service that other taxpayers subsidise for you - you can go private at any time, you don't need to wait for Elon and co.

 

21 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

Personally, I think that most people would prefer to pay more tax for decent infrastructure

 

Your infrastructure is 'decent'. 

 

If you and those around you have a broad consensus otherwise, then get your locals together to petition an upgrade to your service technology, get a quote and finance it any way you like. There's a process and it works if you've the numbers. Plenty of rural communities are doing the same for energy and whatever else infrastructure. 

 

52 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

Not the same range or convenience of course. The whole public rationale for NBN was to provide equivalent infrastructure for country people. Rather than force migrants to live in rural areas with no jobs, poor schools, public transport and the internet, just improve the infrastructure and jobs and people will follow. Of course that can't be done on the cheap in a way that provides large profits for PPPs so it won't happen

 

Plenty of regional areas exist that are well serviced with all you cite. Your area isn't so regional, and you know it. 

 

There is no terrestrial way to bring in fast, unlimited internet to where you live at city prices that doesn't involve subsidy. Your Sky Muster connection is already effectively subsidised.

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8 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Yes, they do, that planning is normal. As mentioned we're not chewing through it quite fast enough which in part explains the rather exceptional 4G service you have in your area.

 

The rest of this turned into a repeated, epic whinge pretty quick. You live rural. Some things are cheaper. Some conveniences are more expensive. Streaming 4k video at will is likely a convenience. 

 

 

2

Spoken like a real city slicker. If you live in the country, just suck up poorer paid jobs, poor infrastructure, expensive living costs, just keep sending cheap food to the cities

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It's likely the SpaceX service will be a better user experience


That depends on how you define it. I’ve explained to you how the NBN has been defined (Eg. Everyone gets the opportunity for 25mbps... so people don’t HAVE to relocate to get the definition of broadband connectivity). I know that doesn’t work for your TV watching... but you can imagine the outcry if one outcome were swapped for another.
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30 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

...........If you live in the country, just suck up poorer paid jobs, poor infrastructure, expensive living costs, ...........

Indeed. I'm 50km inland of the coast, 6.5 km from a town. Because of that and not being in a city I don't even get free to air TV.  No wireless NBN.   Apparently I'm 'remote'.  I think it's pathetic.  I've whinged about it here before.

 

(Off topic non NBN related :

Services have got fewer with the council trying to close anything we do have if it's not making money. Having the local state member as NSW minister for transport just meant he spent all his time being unpopular in Sydney.  Now we don't even have the once a month community bus that was required for getting medical and groceries if you don't drive.  Fuel costs more and there is no alternative.

blah blah blah.  )

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@eman there's no understanding of rural life for most people in the cities. Most don't understand that rural citizens often spend $200+ a week on fuel because of poor public transport, wages are lower, council rates revenue is lower so Council services are less, internet more expensive...

Sure, people choose to live in the country but many more have no choice as jobs follow infrastructure. I can't see businesses that rely on internet relocating to the bush

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1 hour ago, proftournesol said:

Spoken like a real city slicker.

 

Spoken like someone truly ignorant of the sentiment provided. 

 

Where I live is immaterial, we work with country projects (and frankly island projects which make your infrastructure issues look small) all the time.

 

There is a process to upgrade your internet supply in an amenable, communal way. Follow it. Getting funding is then your next step and there are many, many avenues here. As written - with good intention - if there is a genuine need in your area that's broadly supported, there is a process. Get it started. Happens all the time for this and other local infrastructure bits and pieces. 

 

There's nothing poor about your location, FWIW. So far you're the only one slighting it.

 

2 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

I can't see businesses that rely on internet relocating to the bush

 

Easy there. There's internet and then there's internet. My job relies on internet and I can do it on cellular just about anywhere in the country without breaking the bank. You want to stream 4k movies unlimited. Don't be too quick to conflate your convenience requirements with what's needed to support broader industry. Remote education and plenty of other services run just fine on a 25Mbps satellite link or less. 

 

Irrespective of where I live I don't stream 4k. That's not a city perspective slighting you, that's you having an extreme requirement. And there are ways to service it where you are, they just cost more for the moment. 

 

I'd offer that having visited your locale a few times for various reasons, there are (considerably) bigger reasons than a lack of internet capable of sustaining 4k unlimited video streams in every home as to why it's a slower, smaller economy. Which is in no way a slight. It's a great place to be.

 

If you genuinely believe there's a case for better, follow the process. Happy to refer you to people responsible for NBN planning offline if you're genuine.

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. It just perpetuates the city/country divide (although of course lots or urban users are also on SkyMuster.
I don’t necessarily disagree,
But you need to take a relative view to this. Not doing an NBN project would have perpetuated the divide much much more so.

So we can agree the NBN is more than a good idea - what should they have done instead of what they did????

You can cost the other options on the back of an envelope and see they don’t work out to be cost possible by 2020.
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If it were up the Coal-ition, it'd be sold to their mates ASAP


Both major political parties will sell the NBN, partly due to the bad sentiment from the average-man who have believed the hype about how much of a “stuff up” it has been.

Most people now seem to firmly believe, contrary to all the evidence and history, that corporations will deliver it better in their own.
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24 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 


Both major political parties will sell the NBN, partly due to the bad sentiment from the average-man who have believed the hype about how much of a “stuff up” it has been.

Most people now seem to firmly believe, contrary to all the evidence and history, that corporations will deliver it better in their own.

 

There's little substantive difference between both Laberal alternatives, both sock-puppets for neo-liberalism

 

33 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

I don’t necessarily disagree,
But you need to take a relative view to this. Not doing an NBN project would have perpetuated the divide much much more so.

So we can agree the NBN is more than a good idea - what should they have done instead of what they did????

You can cost the other options on the back of an envelope and see they don’t work out to be cost possible by 2020.

Politically, they wouldn't have got away with not doing anything for the country citizens. If it took longer than 2022 to build a proper national network then I'd take that option. I'd increase taxes to pay for it, as well as better schools, transport and health. 

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1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Spoken like someone truly ignorant of the sentiment provided. 

 

Where I live is immaterial, we work with country projects (and frankly island projects which make your infrastructure issues look small) all the time.

 

There is a process to upgrade your internet supply in an amenable, communal way. Follow it. Getting funding is then your next step and there are many, many avenues here. As written - with good intention - if there is a genuine need in your area that's broadly supported, there is a process. Get it started. Happens all the time for this and other local infrastructure bits and pieces. 

 

 

 

When you live in an electorate with one of the lowest mean incomes in the State, the practicality of finding 20 cashed up neighbours that can pay market rates for an alternative is close to nil. These are the areas that need the subsidised infrastructure investment.

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