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Full, rich, forward presentation. Recommendations please....


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14 hours ago, Brendon Foster said:

So today one of the SNA forum members kindly came over to my place with an Accuphase e260 with DAC40 module. What a beast of an amp! Never heard my speakers sound so engaging at mid-low volume. Two issues however prevented me from pulling the trigger. When increasing the volume (never got past 10.30 on the dial) the treble on my usually incredibly smooth speakers became a little hard and shouty, and the bass became a tad muddy. Despite this, the speakers sounded, rich, powerful, musical and was no doubt an improvement on my own Peachtree Nova 150, especially in the DAC section.

The search continues but I'm getting closer. Still dying to try out Parasound, Hegel and Moon... Anyone in Perth with the above that want to bring some great up for a listen and a beer?

I'd suggest the Parasound Halo will not be to your liking as I found a bit uncivilised and harsh, but it's certainly forward. I never got to try the Hegel (really wanted to) but was assured $ for $ the Moon Neo Ace was more powerful and also better at low volume, apparently to the zero negative feedback design in all Moon amps. Some other manufacturers including Accuphase I believe, use this design principle/topology (is that the right use of the word?).

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I'd suggest the Parasound Halo will not be to your liking as I found a bit uncivilised and harsh, but it's certainly forward. I never got to try the Hegel (really wanted to) but was assured $ for $ the Moon Neo Ace was more powerful and also better at low volume, apparently to the zero negative feedback design in all Moon amps. Some other manufacturers including Accuphase I believe, use this design principle/topology (is that the right use of the word?).

Thanks for your input blybo. TBH I don't mind if an amp isn't particularly civilized, I'm looking to capture the energy of a front row seat in the performance. However it needs to do this while retaining iron grip and control of 4 x 12" drivers. Interestingly, with my Peachtree, I can turn the music up seriously loud and it never loses its composure in the bass or treble. Just gives very even handed presentation of the music as high as I can stand to listen to it, but in all instances compared to the Naim, Roksan and Accuphase amp's it sounds thin by comparison with less fluidity and ease of reproduction. All of those amps that I like though sound great at low volume but seem to become hard edged when turning up the dial.

 

I'm starting to wonder if these amps are pushing the compression drivers on my spatials to reproduce frequencies they haven't been asked to perform before. Maybe the compression drivers need further running in with these amps? Maybe my Peachtree rounds of some of the frequency extremes...

 

Any other spatial owners here had similar experiences?@luc

 

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Perhaps you should try moving up the Accuphase line.  As good as the 200 series is, the 300 and 400 series are better. 
More expensive too of course but that goes without saying.
Hi Cafad, I have definitely considered this but unfortunately my cabinet prevents me from moving up the line due to the height and space for cooling. If it wasn't for that I would have a lot more options and I would probably be looking at the luxman range of gear.
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Guest jakeyb77
On 28/09/2018 at 1:08 PM, Onslo said:

I was describing the ME preamp George, as you say a perfect match for an ME power amp.

It is an opamp based pre with an Alps blue pot. Nothing exotic.  

Ive taken the top off a couple of preamps to show an ME 14 which is a good simple preamp and a better preamp with a stepped attenuator from Pass Labs. I know which I prefer.

 

IMG_1375.jpg

IMG_1195.jpg

That’s not what my ME14 looks like inside... might be time to rethink 

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9 hours ago, Brendon Foster said:

Any other spatial owners here had similar experiences?@luc

 

Sorry but you guys are talking in rarefied air a place I never go too. I turn my amp on and play music and I don't think along the lines your discussing or worry about it.

My speakers sound great with a 17watt 46 year old Sansui driving them and the same with 45w pure class A Weston. Easy speakers to drive as far as I'm concerned. 

 

I'm luckier than most in that I have a dedicated listening room that's been acoustically modified to the best of my budget so I'm not dealing with the strictures of a normal living room and it makes a huge difference and I'm sure it's why I don't fuss too much about my gear as it just sounds great in my room. You can have all the power and finesse of top amps and cables and a great front end but if your room is full of reflections and hard surfaces ect ect then your behind the 8 ball.

Sorry I cant be of more help.

Plenty of people here have said that the biggest improvement to SQ they've heard have been when they've treated their rooms. Maybe you should look into to that at some stage.

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10 hours ago, Brendon Foster said:
15 hours ago, Cafad said:
Perhaps you should try moving up the Accuphase line.  As good as the 200 series is, the 300 and 400 series are better. 
More expensive too of course but that goes without saying.

Hi Cafad, I have definitely considered this but unfortunately my cabinet prevents me from moving up the line due to the height and space for cooling. If it wasn't for that I would have a lot more options and I would probably be looking at the luxman range of gear.

Luxman will roll off sooner than your Peachtree. I demo’ed a class A Luxman and didn’t even bother bringing it home for a proper demo. Lovely for soft Muzak etc but not a rock amp. 

 

As @Luc has mentioned it’s my room that makes my treble harsh at high volume and it’s been that way regardless of speaker or amp. Being a family room I’ve just done things like soft furnishings, rug etc to try and tame it. 

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On 04/10/2018 at 8:12 PM, Brendon Foster said:
On 04/10/2018 at 10:43 AM, audio_file said:
Roksan Caspian M2.
Sugden A21A Signature.

Have searches alerts on pretty much every site or there for a Caspian but seem to be rarer than rocking horse poo!

https://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/roksan-caspian-m2-series-integrated-amplifier.html

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Thanks, but unfortunately thatsv just out of my budget and I haven't been able to listen to one yet either. My absolute max is $3500 and I will have to sell my Peachtree to make it happen. I might stretch a couple hundred more if there is a chance I could onsell for a profit, but buying new, even at sale price means I lose money if it doesn't sound good in my system.

Anyone in Perth have a Caspian MK2 I could listen too?
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Sorry but you guys are talking in rarefied air a place I never go too. I turn my amp on and play music and I don't think along the lines your discussing or worry about it.
My speakers sound great with a 17watt 46 year old Sansui driving them and the same with 45w pure class A Weston. Easy speakers to drive as far as I'm concerned. 
 
I'm luckier than most in that I have a dedicated listening room that's been acoustically modified to the best of my budget so I'm not dealing with the strictures of a normal living room and it makes a huge difference and I'm sure it's why I don't fuss too much about my gear as it just sounds great in my room. You can have all the power and finesse of top amps and cables and a great front end but if your room is full of reflections and hard surfaces ect ect then your behind the 8 ball.
Sorry I cant be of more help.
Plenty of people here have said that the biggest improvement to SQ they've heard have been when they've treated their rooms. Maybe you should look into to that at some stage.
My room is pretty inert, lots of soft furnishings. A little reflection in the 'lively corner' of the Ron though, my wife likes to remind anyone who will listen that that's where she sits! [emoji3] Room treatments are unfortunately not gonna work for us, (by that i mean my wife). I could get away with some accoustic foam behind a canvas print or something, but it would need to be dead centre on the wall. Couldn't set it to the first reflection point or similar.
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15 hours ago, blybo said:

Luxman will roll off sooner than your Peachtree. I demo’ed a class A Luxman and didn’t even bother bringing it home for a proper demo. Lovely for soft Muzak etc but not a rock amp. 

 

I have to respectfully disagree. As a 550AX MKI owner this is as lush a sound as I have ever had in my setup, irrespective of music genre.This replaced a mono-blocked Cyrus system and I have never looked back. As the wife's choice of music is rock, this amp has made her dubious music selections more than listenable, even at "hard" levels. Importantly, music is thoroughly engaging. However I know this option isn't available to Brendan due to location constraints (and possibly cost too). 
Brendan, Parasound may be an option to try out in the not-too-distant future...will be in touch.

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I have to respectfully disagree. As a 550AX MKI owner this is as lush a sound as I have ever had in my setup, irrespective of music genre.This replaced a mono-blocked Cyrus system and I have never looked back. As the wife's choice of music is rock, this amp has made her dubious music selections more than listenable, even at "hard" levels. Importantly, music is thoroughly engaging. However I know this option isn't available to Brendan due to location constraints (and possibly cost too). 
Brendan, Parasound may be an option to try out in the not-too-distant future...will be in touch.
Hey Mark, I'm actually checking out a moon 340i this weekend. I have high hopes for it. Having listened to the Accuphase e260 v recently I was really impressed, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, it muddied the low end at volume and got shouty on the treble too but was the best and most "lush" sounding amp I've heard yet. I'd be love to hear a luxman at some point, I think it would be just what I'm looking for sound wise. But unless I can find a way of replacing the AV cabinet without my wife noticing, it's just not gonna fit! I'll let you know how I go with the Moon. Still v keen to hear Parasound with the spatials too.
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Lush is definitely a word I would associate with Luxman's class A amps, beware though that they do shed a considerable amount of heat.  If your cabinet limitations were suddenly to be lifted then I would certainly recommend a trial. 

 

A Densen integrated would fit your spatial requirements and shouldn't run very warm at all so they could be worth a thought.  Not easy to get a-hold of for an in house audition however.  And pretty pricey too.

Edited by Cafad
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On 23/09/2018 at 4:51 AM, Brendon Foster said:

 

 

 

Prima Luna Dialogue Premium Integrated - did incredible things with the highs and mids, beautiful tone and sweetness, lots of air around the instruments and superb sound staging, but bass was poorly defined and wooly compared to solid state amps. Doesn't fit in my AV cabinet so has very poor WAF rating also.

 

I imagine the Dialogue  had EL 34 or KT 88 tubes.   Try it again with KT 120 or 150.  It is superb.   As opposed to every other bit of gadgetry I have ever owned I have no interest in moving this on.  If it had a headphone socket it would be perfect.

 

The size and heat generation don't really fit your specs, but the sound is gobsmacking with almost any source

 

I had some initial domestic resistance, but the complainers actually now tell me how nice it is to see the tubes glowing.  It has a nice kind of steam-punk vibe.

 

Good luck with the search.

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I have the Spatial Hologram M3 Turbos and run them with Line Magnetic 518ia integrated from the 4 ohm taps (20W SET 845 amps) after a Leben valve preamplifier. I think it's a great match. It gives the presentation you say you desire. Somewhat forward and rich, excellent tonality. On the lush side of normal-neutral--and very relaxing.

 

Good bass, but I always have my twin REL Storm 5 subs in service--wouldn't get out of bed without them. So we're talking great bass. 

 

I also use a single-ended 6-10W SE pentode (6L6; KT-88; EL-34) amp from Elekit with that presentation, too.

 

[Either of these amps can be run straight as integrated]

 

Then there's the McChanson 300B integrated: 'same same--but different'. Lucky me.

 

Like having a cellar of cabernet, shiraz, hermitage, petit verdot and merlot vintages if you like well-made red wine. 

 

I note that Bill McLean suggests around 40W - 80W+ to drive the Spatials despite the high sensitivity (presumably because there is an impedance dip to some 3 ohms here and there).

 

AND the speakers need a hell of a lot of breaking in! Maybe hundreds of hours...totally worth it.

 

Just my 2c worth

 

 

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Some apocryphal stories of 500 hrs + to run these in...

I think that's fantasy worthy of a 6 Moons review but a couple of hundred tops is certainly the going trend from my reading and my XP of my little fellas.

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I'd love to try those Lumina but I guess we'd be looking at AUD$15-20k, plus active crossovers from memory. Clayton Shaw, the designer of Spatial is good mates with the designer of Vinnie Rossi so they have a model developed just for these speakers.

 

@Brendon Foster How'd the Moon 340i go?

Edited by blybo
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I'd love to try those Lumina but I guess we'd be looking at AUD$15-20k, plus active crossovers from memory. Clayton Shaw, the designer of Spatial is good mates with the designer of Vinnie Rossi so they have a model developed just for these speakers.
 
[mention=258476]Brendon Foster[/mention] How'd the Moon 340i go?
Good enough that I bought it (off gumtree)! Still assessing but not much to complain about so far. Review incoming shortly [emoji41]
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