Another Audio GD R2R Dac the R2R 7HE!!!!

[georgehifi]

Another discrete R2R Dac from Audio GD, he's been working hard as this one looks complex, relects in the price it's his most expensive one. Also supports DSD and also DXD what could be the best sounding format you'll ever hear.

http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/R2R7HE/R2R7HEEN.htm

 

Cheers George 

Edited September 18, 2018 by georgehifi

[davewantsmoore]

Coincidentally, I just received this week the baby brother R2R 11 DAC / headphone amp ... and I am just now boxing it up to take into the office.

 

 

[MrBurns84]

Let us know your thoughts / first impressions on it Dave

[ghost4man]

Out of curiosity I would love to put my Holo Spring Level 2 DAC up against this. These R2R DACS are the best in my humble opinion. 

 

In saying that one of the things that I have taken on board from George and that is to source music with the highest DR you can find. That I feel is the key. 

 

Music with low DR, that is under 10 will struggle regardless of how good your equipment is. 

[davewantsmoore]

4 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Music with low DR, that is under 10

Large peak to average ratios can/do sound very good.... and the "DR value" is a good guide, however I see some common mistakes. 

 

Nitpicking between different versions or pressings of an album that may have very similar DR values.    8 is not necessarily better than 7 (for example).

 

Concluding that "low DR values" will always sound bad.   Art is more complicated than this.

 

22 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Holo Spring Level 2 DAC

Does anyone have a link to their compensation patent?

 

9 hours ago, shogo33 said:

Let us know your thoughts / first impressions on it Dave

This is the baby R2R 11 (DAC and headphone amp).    For a ~$400 box it is very good.

[kukynas]

20 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Coincidentally, I just received this week the baby brother R2R 11 DAC / headphone amp ... and I am just now boxing it up to take into the office.

 

 

cute little girl , your daughter Dave? and the amp looks good as well of course 

[A J]

That looks interesting - he's put a mammoth amount of thought into this. It's starting to get serious money territory though.

[Guest scumbag]

Dave. Wow, they've really packed a lot of tech into a small, well priced box. I agree about DR. Case in point, the re-release of OK Computer. The DR has got down from 8 to 7. But the remaster is obviously clearer and sounds better to my ears. There needs to be some balance in the DR debate. Compression is actually good and gets used in most good recordings. It just needs to be done conscientiously. 

[georgehifi]

1 hour ago, scumbag said:

Compression is actually good and gets used in most good recordings.

I agree, but only in the car, or out walking/jogging with earphones on. 

Not at home in the dead silence of your listening room where you can hear the minutest haunting sounds way back in the distance over the louder up front crescendos.

 

"No sounds in life are compressed, why do it to our music"

Maybe it's help for the semi deaf to hear the quieter note/s?

 

Cheers George

Edited September 19, 2018 by georgehifi

[Guest scumbag]

43 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

I agree, but only in the car, or out walking/jogging with earphones on. 

Not at home in the dead silence of your listening room where you can hear the minutest haunting sounds way back in the distance over the louder up front crescendos.

 

"No sounds in life are compressed, why do it to our music"

I've got it, maybe it's for the semi deaf?

 

Cheers George

Have you ever wondered how a producer can simultaneously reproduce drums and the humans voice on a recording without clipping the recording? Vocals are  commonly compressed to reduce sibilance. Drums and bass have their waveforms compressed to achieve a good mix.

 

https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/alan-parsons-on-his-favourite-gear-and-why-he-avoids-using-compression-630648

 

"What about their range of compressors?

"I prefer to use external compressors and limiters. I tend to avoid compression and limiting, I never compress mixes, and I only ever usually limit two things: vocals and bass."

 

So again, Compression is a good thing if used judiciously and it gets used in most recordings, perhaps even some of the ones you hold dear,  with the exception of "boutique" recordings where there is an emphasis on low interference during the recording process.

Edited September 19, 2018 by scumbag

[Guest scumbag]

And just to further hijack the thread and throw a cat in amongst the pigeons  http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17084

 

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

where you can hear the minutest haunting sounds way back in the distance over the louder up front crescendos

 

I don't think anybody will disagree that this is desirable, if that's what the artist wants .... and of course, if anyones does disagree, that's their preference <shrug>.

 

The point is that the DR database values, which some people seem to vigorously worship ... aren't the last word for telling you about what you've quoted above.    They're a good guide/comparison, but they measure the peak to average .... rather than the peak to minimum/noise.    So in effect the DR database really represents what's often called the "crest factor"....  which is kinda a poor/unhelpful way to rate "dynamics".    Unfortunately measuring the real peak/noise, would be more variable, and arguably less useful overall as a comparison tool, or an idea of "loudness".

[georgehifi]

2 hours ago, scumbag said:

Have you ever wondered how a producer can simultaneously reproduce drums and the humans voice on a recording without clipping the recording?

If they can't do this without resorting to compression, they don't have the headroom with the equipment they are using.

 

Cheers George

[Guest scumbag]

My appeal to authority: https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-music/c-o-m-p-r-e-s-s-i-o-n.html

"For those audiophiles who've never been around the business end of a microphone the plain fact is that compression - the act of reducing the dynamic range, can and often does take place at any (and sometimes every) stage in the recording process. Even LPs (one might even say especially LPs) have limiting built into the production process. All cutting lathes had limiters to restrict the loudest passages. And phono cartridges, due to their construction, limit the loudest passages of LPs."

 

https://www.capitolstudios.com/mastering/

 

So I guess they must be using crap equipment to cut their records.

Edited September 20, 2018 by scumbag

[georgehifi]

15 minutes ago, scumbag said:

All cutting lathes had limiters to restrict the loudest passages.

I'm not saying it isn't necessary because of the limiting factor of some of the recording chain equipment. 

 

But it's being done to keep MP3 users from blowing their eardrums out and also clipping their ear buds, with heavy transients, also so we can here all the notes in the car with road, traffic, wind noise.

 

And the total loudness now is close to twice as high as what it used to be back in the 80's. Can you imagine what the original Telarc 1812 overture  cannon shots would do to MP3 users ears and phones today if not compressed, so the dynamics are next to flat.  

 

Cheers George

Edited September 20, 2018 by georgehifi

[Guest scumbag]

Just now, georgehifi said:

I'm not saying it isn't necessary because of the limiting factor of some of the recording chain equipment, but it's being done to keep MP3 users from blowing their eardrums out and also clipping their ear buds, with heavy transients, also so we can here all the notes in the car with road, traffic, wind noise. And the total loudness now is close to twice as high as what it used to be back in the 80's. Can you imagine what the original Telarc 1812 overture  cannon shots would do to MP3 users ears and phones today if not compressed, so the dynamics are next to flat.  

 

Cheers George

Oh, you were talking about MP3's all this time?? OK, Sure.

[georgehifi]

5 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Oh, you were talking about MP3's all this time?? OK, Sure.

Same applies to later re-released cd's that are twice as loud, but also compressed to what the originally were.

Just so when they're A/B against the original one the louder is preferred by the wally that can't hear that it just louder and not better.

 

Cheers George

Edited September 20, 2018 by georgehifi

[eltech]

14 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Even LPs (one might even say especially LPs) have limiting built into the production process. All cutting lathes had limiters to restrict the loudest passages.

Its what gives vinyl the "soft" top end sound. The HF limiters apear to start around 5khz from my analysis.  IMO This is one reason that vinyl can be percieved by some to have better bass than the CD of the same album. The snare and hi-hats simply arent as loud in the mix due to the HF limiting which changes the balance of sound. 

 

I think I read online that records dont necessarily have to be cut with limiters if the length of the side is less than 12 minutes.

 

[Guest scumbag]

10 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

Same applies to later re-released cd's that are twice as loud, but also compressed to what the originally were.

Just so when they're A/B against the original one the louder is preferred by the wally that can't hear that it just louder and not better.

 

Cheers George

Which is nothing to do with the recording process or my points above.

[georgehifi]

20 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

23 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Oh, you were talking about MP3's all this time?? OK, Sure.

Same applies

 

9 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Which is nothing to do with the recording process or my points above.

As I said "same applies"

 

Cheers George

[ghost4man]

7 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Which is nothing to do with the recording process or my points above.

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make. 

 

I like to listen to music which is as close to a live reproduction as possible. That's my preference. The issue with compression and the impact that it has had on the dynamic range is well known. This has become what we now known to be the loudness war. 

 

I personally like to hear the difference between a whisper and a shout which becomes compromised with compression. If you can't discern that difference then I would suggest the problem lies elsewhere. 

 

Have a good read about this history and you'll quickly discover that compression and narrowing of the dynamic range is all about increasing competitiveness by grabbing the attention of the listeners by making their music louder. 

[Guest scumbag]

" If you can't discern that difference then I would suggest the problem lies elsewhere. "

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by scumbag

[frankn]

On 19/09/2018 at 5:27 AM, georgehifi said:

Another discrete R2R Dac from Audio GD, he's been working hard as this one looks complex, relects in the price it's his most expensive one. Also supports DSD and also DXD what could be the best sounding format you'll ever hear.

http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/R2R7HE/R2R7HEEN.htm

 

Cheers George 

That looks very good, combining resistors, FPGA / correction circuit. 

Am I correct with costs , ~AUD 5.6K landed???

 

Accuracy of the ladder resistors (tolerance):
                 Many people believe the tolerance of the resistors in the ladder is most important to reach best performance. Nowadays 24 bit resolution is standard. What tolerance is needed to achieve 24 bit resolution?
            When we look at 16 bit the tolerance of 1/66536, 0.1% (1/1000) is far not enough, even a tolerance of 0.01% (1/10000), the best tolerance available in the world today, still cannot handle 16 bit request correctly; we are not even calculating 24 bit here!
           The tolerance of the resistor will never solve Imperfections of a ladder. This would require resistors with a tolerance of 0.00001% and can handle 24 bit resolution. This is only in theory because the discreteness of the switch logic chips have already too much internal impedance and will destroy the impossible tolerance of a resistor.
            The solution is to correct the ladder and not only depend on the tolerance of resistors. It’s a combination of both: Ultra-low tolerance resistors controlled by a correction technology using very high speed FPGA are applicable in in our design.
 

 

[Guest scumbag]

3 minutes ago, ghost4man said:

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make. 

 

I like to listen to music which is as close to a live reproduction as possible. That's my preference. The issue with compression and the impact that it has had on the dynamic range is well known. This has become what we now known to be the loudness war. 

 

I personally like to hear the difference between a whisper and a shout which becomes compromised with compression. If you can't discern that difference then I would suggest the problem lies elsewhere. 

 

Have a good read about this history and you'll quickly discover that compression and narrowing of the dynamic range is all about increasing competitiveness by grabbing the attention of the listeners by making their music louder. 

Well my point obviously escapes you so let's leave it there. Nice little hint at Ad Hominem though.

Edited September 20, 2018 by scumbag

[Guest scumbag]

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Edited September 20, 2018 by scumbag