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Power Regenerators. Are they worth it? Do they contribute anything to the HI FI System?


Jake123

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4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Nope. I believe I have been quite specific and precise in when and why power treatment could be helpful in a TINY minority of systems. Please read my other posts on this matter, before misquoting me.

Yes. Western Australia and low quality or poorly designed equipment.  To me that is virtually  irrelevant.  I live on the eastern seaboard and my equipment is definitely relatively hi end and extremely well designed power treatment wise.  Yet I consider that I have a benefit with a power conditioner.  Do you agree or not agree that I may have a benefit?  If you don't agree surely there is disagreement and subsequently it is contentious.

 

4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I suggest you read my comments about power treatment before you make bold assumptions. I have contributed a considerable amount to this forum in this area. 

I think I have read probably everything that you have ever posted about power treatment.  As you may be aware it is a subject that interests considerably.  I am curious as to what the bold assumptions are?

John

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19 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

My back-of-the-napkin calculations for a worst case scenario for my household would be:

 

2 X 2.2kVA air cons

1 X 650 Watt air con

1 X 1kVA pool filter (since removed)

1 X 2kVA Off-peak hot water heater (Assumed power consumption) Let's not even discuss instantaneous!

1 X 300 Watt Water bed heater (Winter usage)
1 X 300 Watt Plasma TV

1 X 2kVA Oven

1 X 1kVA stove top

1 X 1kVA microwave oven

1 X 400 Watt Miscellaneous lighting, computer, etc. 

 

Not to have a second go at this, though I thought I'd take a look at some residential high-resolution datasets just to see how peaky things at and to put numbers against as much. I picked one house arbitrarily - this is a home from a UK dataset sampled at 1Hz over four years - not too much electrification (hello a lot of homes in Victoria). The average daily consumption in this particular home was 8.22kWh/day, comparing with a Victorian average of around 16kWh/day. Still, 8kWh/day or less is around a quarter of all homes in Victoria, and over-represented in homes without children and the like.

 

In a general sense I'd focus more on the distribution of power density rather than the outright numbers. 

  • Minimum 0 kW
  • Maximum 8.067 kW
  • 99.999% of the time consumption is below 6.472 kW
  • 99.95% of the time consumption is below 4.563 kW
  • 99% of the time consumption is below 2.712 kW
  • 95% of the time consumption is below 0.693 kW
  • 90% of the time consumption is below 0.510 kW
  • 80% of the time consumption is below 0.397 kW
  • 50% of the time consumption is below 0.223 kW
  • The top 10% of maximum power is used approximately 35 seconds a year
  • The top 5% of maximum power is used approximately 19 seconds a year
  • The top 1% of maximum power is used approximately 4 seconds a year

 

Now, we're admittedly more power dense in Australia - crazy things by global standards like hot water tanks with 3.6kW resistive elements (or two!), and I do think future energy use is going to favour (a) electrification and (b) more power density. My home is setup as a bit of a lab for this and if you like I could see about pulling the 1Hz data from my logger and repeating the above. 

 

Though I'd think the point is made either way - your approach around maximum home loads and their relevance is possibly overstated. 

 

(PS - There's a 16kHz version of this dataset for anyone keen to have a look!)

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18 hours ago, Assisi said:

Yes. Western Australia and low quality or poorly designed equipment.  To me that is virtually  irrelevant.  I live on the eastern seaboard and my equipment is definitely relatively hi end and extremely well designed power treatment wise.

Internal regulated power supplies for all essential (and non-essential) circuits? 

 

Let's not get into a discussion about 'high end', at this point. One of the tests I performed with a regenerator involved a well-regarded, $5,000.00, SS power amp, vs. a $50,000+ valve amp. Not only did the SS amp beat the valve amp every way imaginable, but the SS amp was completely unaffected by the regenerator. The valve improved with the use of the regenerator. A not unsurprising finding, given the lack of proper regulation in parts of the valve amp (particularly filament supplies). The owner of the $50k amp had always assumed his amp to possess 'high end' credentials. IMO, any amp costing that much, yet lacking the basics of a proper regulated filament supply cannot be regarded as high end. It can only be regarded as faulty design. 

 

Quote

 

 

  Yet I consider that I have a benefit with a power conditioner.  Do you agree or not agree that I may have a benefit?

Sure. I have outlined, many times, the reasons why some equipment can benefit from power regenerators. I know the equipment used by the originator of this thread. I expect that, unless his mains power is truly horrible that a regenerator will do nothing for his system/s. 

 

Quote

 

 

  If you don't agree surely there is disagreement and subsequently it is contentious.

Well, no. I have consistently outlined the reasons where a power regenerator may be helpful. 

 

 

Quote

 

I think I have read probably everything that you have ever posted about power treatment.  As you may be aware it is a subject that interests considerably.  I am curious as to what the bold assumptions are?

John

Read what I wrote and, perhaps, all will become clear. I have been consistent and clear under what circumstances power regenerators may be helpful. 

Edited by Zaphod Beeblebrox
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3 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Let's not get into a discussion about 'high end', at this point. One of the tests I performed with a regenerator involved a well-regarded, $5,000.00, SS power amp, vs. a $50,000+ valve amp. Not only did the SS amp beat the valve amp every way imaginable, but the SS amp was completely unaffected by the regenerator. The valve improved with the use of the regenerator. A not unsurprising finding, given the lack of proper regulation in parts of the valve amp (particularly filament supplies). The owner of the $50k amp had always assumed his amp to possess 'high end' credentials. IMO, any amp costing that much, yet lacking the basics of a proper regulated filament supply cannot be regarded as high end. It can only be regarded as faulty design. 

 

That argument is about as strong as suggesting opinions borne of minds without adequate filtering and regulation for intransigence are not 'faulty' opinions. 

 

I get your assertion, though a design without 'sufficient' regulation against (directly or indirectly) mains variance in critical parts... is just that. And not by definition flawed, unless the design brief also included 'sufficient' regulation for a given set of scenarios. There are many reasons why this isn't always so, and (you'd know) 'proper regulation' is a loose term relative to mains power quality - which can vary very significantly. 

 

Nonwithstanding there are plenty of other reasons to buy into equipment that in part or whole serve 'regeneration' requirements. 

 

3 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I know the equipment used by the originator of this thread. I expect that, unless his mains power is truly horrible that a regenerator will do nothing for his system/s. 

 

Only you know and this is probably fair. Head over to his place with a power logger and quantify 'horrible' :D 

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47 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

That argument is about as strong as suggesting opinions borne of minds without adequate filtering and regulation for intransigence are not 'faulty' opinions. 

 

I get your assertion, though a design without 'sufficient' regulation against (directly or indirectly) mains variance in critical parts... is just that. And not by definition flawed, unless the design brief also included 'sufficient' regulation for a given set of scenarios. There are many reasons why this isn't always so, and (you'd know) 'proper regulation' is a loose term relative to mains power quality - which can vary very significantly. 

As you have correctly stated (and I have stated many times), the mains supply is not perfectly stable. ALL manufacturers are well aware of this fact. Any manufacturer who produces a product that fails to take this fact into account is, by definition, selling a faulty product. 

 

I have been a tech for longer than I care to remember. I developed an appreciation of quality test equipment early on, after buying some pretty ordinary products. Those ordinary products lacked the regulation required for me to perform accurate, repeatable measurements. Sometime around 1974 I acquired a beautiful Hitachi oscilloscope. It was a direct copy of a Tektronix CRO that was popular at the time. I even photocopied the Tektronix service manual, so I could repair the thing. One standout feature was the enormous efforts Tektronix had gone to, in order to ensure that the performance was as good as the technology would allow. The filaments (it was an all vacuum tube CRO) in the vertical amplifier were operated in series, from a 120 Volt DC supply. That DC supply was tightly regulated by huge twin triode valves. There were three of the things chucking out huge amounts of heat, regulating all parts of the CRO, mostly the plate supplies in various parts of the CRO. Importantly, the CRO was immune to quite large mains supply variations. And all this, way back in 1963! Modern regulators are much easier and cheaper to implement. When I hear people banging on about 'high end' audio equipment, I just think about test equipment manufactured by Tek and others. So-called 'high end audio' manufacturers are a very long way behind proper design in many areas. 

 

47 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Nonwithstanding there are plenty of other reasons to buy into equipment that in part or whole serve 'regeneration' requirements. 

 

 

Only you know and this is probably fair. Head over to his place with a power logger and quantify 'horrible' :D 

Well, I know that the originator could suffer a complete power failure amounting to a couple of seconds and there would be no audible difference to the sound quality. I believe that qualifies as horrible.

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1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

As you have correctly stated (and I have stated many times), the mains supply is not perfectly stable. ALL manufacturers are well aware of this fact. Any manufacturer who produces a product that fails to take this fact into account is, by definition, selling a faulty product. 

 

I'd go the other way, particularly with audio - there's in fact a market for as much. Whether you or I agree with it or not is another story. My power amps are very well regulated until a few caps decided to reach end of life prior. My DAC is mains-sensitive. For various reasons - some legitimately technical - I'm OK with this. Now maybe my case is a little obtuse in that I purchased it 'eyes wide open' about what it would and wouldn't do. Those that sold it to me were similarly honest. It has valves. What harmonics are inherent to it I quite like. 

 

I would concur that many people being sold regeneration tech aren't quite being explained what the hardware does, or why. There's scant education around what it could or should do for a home. Have a friend that just bought a P20. Nothing sounds significantly different though at his pay grade it's a nice thing to have, at mine it's not a priority. 

 

Some other reasons are just flat out cost, packaging or thermally related. My HVAC system and fridge don't like voltage excursions much either, and are duly protected from them in a design specification within reason and the bounds of that specification, though aren't as high-fidelity devices as though I use to replicate music. 

 

It's all relative. I'd suggest 'faulty' is a black-and-white definition where there are shades of grey in play. 

 

I like your Tek, and until recently had access to a Yokogawa scope that was similarly robust. Though to illustrate 'shades of grey' - that scope had one job in life, it didn't involve amplification, and it's worth around $50k. What attitude you take to regulation I could just as easily apply to shielding, clocking, filtering and resampling, signal transmission, longevity and stability, etc. It all costs money, there are compromises beyond as much, and in the end guess what - nothing's perfect. Even at $50k. A product can legitimately cost $500 or $5k or $500k and still require certain conditions for best performance - not that there's anything wrong with moving the regulation requirement in part outside the box, either. Your argument is a bit like suggesting a sports car is inherently faulty because it might require smooth roads for best performance.

 

Granted, a regenerator isn't the first place I'd spend money, and most people will get their lives in order by having a sparkie getting their reticulation sorted, their earthing proper and getting their distributor to validate they're doing their job within acceptable spec. At the other extreme there's people with daily voltage excursions of a significant nature accompanied by a tight DC offset and some local asynchronous generation doing its thing, for which Australia's power quality gets towards the sketchy end of acceptable. And if you've gone regeneration in that instance, there's a chance you'll hear it. 

 

I don't think we disagree much save for the severity of 'faulty' being proposed.

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On 27/09/2018 at 7:07 PM, rmpfyf said:

It is completely possible to design something with broad insensitivity to wide mains voltage inputs. I'd have to completely forget how to be an engineer to suggest that this alone doesn't come with other compromises. 

Well voltage-sensitive audio equipment typically does include a regulated power supply, That has been the norm for decades.  I'm not sure what you mean by "other compromises". Mains voltage distributed to a residence will routinely vary from time to time during the day and the actual voltage at a power point will be affected to some extent by the current drawn by appliances elsewhere in the residence. Manufacturers of audio devices are aware of that and will typically design to ensure the device will function correctly over a reasonably wide range of voltage variation.

 

If a person has an audio device that lacks power regulation and produces audibly impaired sound as a result of that, in circumstances where the mains voltage varies by even a small amount, I suppose the person has two basic choices: replace or modify the audio device, or provide an externally regulated AC supply.

If premises experience extreme voltage variations beyond the Australian standards for mains power, that's another issue.

Where I reside in Brisbane the mains voltage does vary but not excessively. The variation probably affects the time for the washing machine spin-dryer to get up to speed. It can slightly affect the brightness of some of the lights in the house if one observes very carefully.

I guess if someone were very concerned (e.g. if they possessed audio equipment lacking built-in regulation and likely to be sensitive to mains voltage variations) they could purchase a variable transformer to test the performance of the audio equipment at different voltages.  Here is an example  of a variable transformer rated at 500VA and which provides a voltage readout: https://www.jaycar.com.au/0-260vac-variable-laboratory-autotransfomer-variac-500va/p/MP3080. I'm not recommending anyone do this, but it would be a logical course of action if one were really concerned about impaired sound quality resulting from even small variations in mains voltage.

A less expensive approach would be to simply monitor the mains voltage and wait for it to change. A device to measure the mains voltage some people might find convenient would be something like this: https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-power-usage-meter/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_ads&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5rjntffd3QIVDD5gCh1n5w1_EAQYAiABEgL0oPD_BwE.

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51 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Well voltage-sensitive audio equipment typically does include a regulated power supply, That has been the norm for decades.  I'm not sure what you mean by "other compromises".

 

Sure. Though you're treating regulation as though it's an absolute, rather than how regulated? Under what conditions? Could it have been improved or not? Etc. Regulation isn't absolute in any way. Other compromises - as in 'why wasn't it better' - listed above (cost, thermal performance, etc). 

 

54 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

Mains voltage distributed to a residence will routinely vary from time to time during the day and the actual voltage at a power point will be affected to some extent by the current drawn by appliances elsewhere in the residence. Manufacturers of audio devices are aware of that and will typically design to ensure the device will function correctly over a reasonably wide range of voltage variation.

 

Sure, and we have state and federal standards for voltage, through this is one characteristic (and usually not the worst-performing characteristic) of power quality. 

 

55 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

If a person has an audio device that lacks power regulation and produces audibly impaired sound as a result of that, in circumstances where the mains voltage varies by even a small amount, I suppose the person has two basic choices: replace or modify the audio device, or provide an externally regulated AC supply.

 

Again, we seem stuck on voltage here, and it's not the only thing going. And some people go fully DC. Plenty of solutions out there. Though again, this notion of 'lacks regulation' seems to imply that regulation either exists or not, and that being present implies sufficiency of performance. Not absolutely, practically the case. 

 

57 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

If premises experience extreme voltage variations beyond the Australian standards for mains power, that's another issue.

 

If premises were to experience contingency events within Australian supply standards it'd be extreme for audio performance. This notion that our standards and requirements for good audio (or even equipment lifespan) are adequately encompassed by Australian standards... is a falsehood. Would suggest in this instance possibly reading the standard. I don't mean to be trite; there are things your mains supply is allowed to do occasionally that isn't in the best interests of your audio equipment (or any electrical equipment) -  regulated or otherwise. 

 

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

Where I reside in Brisbane the mains voltage does vary but not excessively. The variation probably affects the time for the washing machine spin-dryer to get up to speed. It can slightly affect the brightness of some of the lights in the house if one observes very carefully.

 

Brisbane has one of the best municipal grids in Australia. Kudos. Your region was first to experience big peaking residential electrical loads (air con usually), big solar PV uptake. Residential demand response and a ton of other stuff - all pioneered in QLD for the most part - forms a basis for much of what regulation is moving the grid forwards. And honestly a lot of the people in charge at Energy Queensland are very, very smart and capable to this end. Your mains is in good hands. 

 

Meanwhile in regional Victoria....

 

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

I guess if someone were very concerned (e.g. if they possessed audio equipment lacking built-in regulation and likely to be sensitive to mains voltage variations) they could purchase a variable transformer to test the performance of the audio equipment at different voltages.  Here is an example  of a variable transformer rated at 500VA and which provides a voltage readout: https://www.jaycar.com.au/0-260vac-variable-laboratory-autotransfomer-variac-500va/p/MP3080. I'm not recommending anyone do this, but it would be a logical course of action if one were really concerned about impaired sound quality resulting from even small variations in mains voltage.

 

The original counter point (we're well off the OP's request now) was that some have to do this for whole of house - they've no choice owing to mains performance. 

 

There are a ton of things one could do to simulate various aspects of mains performance. Practically today the best thing is to call a good sparkie and go over the basics, then ask the DNSP nicely what's what in your area. 

 

Who knows, in future with  potential residential battery uptake and a good offgrid inverter we might opt to simply island from the grid and form our own mains for critical listening, with some other tricks and bits to keep noisy contributions off the audio circuit. 

 

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

A less expensive approach would be to simply monitor the mains voltage and wait for it to change. A device to measure the mains voltage some people might find convenient would be something like this: https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-power-usage-meter/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_ads&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5rjntffd3QIVDD5gCh1n5w1_EAQYAiABEgL0oPD_BwE.

 

Nice kit. 

 

For a lot of us the daily variations are going to be peak sun, end sun, end industrial activity. These usually give a good guide. If you have any PV systems in your area that report voltage on pvoutput.org, it's worth checking - you'll see a daily trace publicly. It's also possible to jump on AREMI (https://nationalmap.gov.au/renewables/) to see if you live in an area where distribution feeders are overloaded, and accordingly if you're more predisposed to suffer performance swings. 

 

(We're so OT now! :D)

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6 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Sure, and we have state and federal standards for voltage, through this is one characteristic (and usually not the worst-performing characteristic) of power quality. 

"usually not the worst performing" - what usually are the worst performing characteristics?

 

(Thanks btw, @rmpfyf, for your detailed reply to my post.)

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1 minute ago, MLXXX said:

"usually not the worst performing" - what usually are the worst performing characteristics?

 

Across the NEM mainland (everyone on mains bar WA) it's frequency (it's survivable but quite loosely regulated, pardon the pun, for a western nation), in PV-affected areas voltage and DC offset, then there's local spots with power factor issues. Sometimes local spots have both PV and PF issues. I'd start poking around on AREMI and the APVI websites to get some idea of how likely issues are to be prevalent in any one area (they're free - the former for known distribution challenges, the latter for PV uptake in your area). 

 

4 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

(Thanks btw, @rmpfyf, for your detailed reply to my post.)

 

And you! It's been a good thread so far.

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I've had no power conditioner and also tried Richard Gray's Power Company, Ayre and now Audioquest power conditioners (and Audioquest power cables).

 

The Audioquest power conditioner and power cables were a revelation. SO much detail was missing. There were no negatives with it in use.

 

My system is also highly revealing (system details below).

 

More reading at the link below and HIGHLY recommended.

 

Your results and opinions may vary.

 

https://www.audioquest.com/content/aq/pdf/Power-Demystified-whitepaper-8-23-18.zip

 

SYSTEM:

 

Link with photos:

 

 

 

Stereo:

 

Equipment:

Vandersteen Model Seven loudspeakers
dCS Puccini SACD/CD player & DAC
dCS Puccini U-Clock

Bauer dps 3/Ayre Turntable

Lyra Atlas cartridge
Ayre KX-R Twenty Pre-amp

Audio Research REF 3 Phono stage
Ayre MX-R Twenty Monoblock amps
Audioquest Niagara 5000 Power Filter
Melco N1ZH Network Streamer

 

Cables:

Audioquest Eagle Eye 72V DBS BNC 75 Ohm digital cable
Audioquest Everest 72V DBS speaker cables in bi-wire configuration
Audioquest WEL William E Low Signature Cable balanced interconnects 72V DBS
Audioquest Diamond 72V DBS USB cable
Audioquest Wild Blue Yonder 72V DBS 75 Ohm digital cable
Audioquest Thunder 72V DBS power cables & NRG-10 72V DBS power cables (NRG-10's connected to the Vandersteen Sevens)

cleardot.gif


Misc:

Solid Tech Rack of Silence equipment racks with suspension shelves

Finite Elemente Pagode turntable wall shelf
Ayre myrtle wood blocks used under all equipment and also under interconnect and power cables to ensure they are raised above floor
Silent Running Audio "Ohio Class" Audio isoBASE custom made amp stands for the Ayre MX-R Twenty Monoblock amps
Cardas XLR and RCA caps on unused inputs/outputs
Audioquest Edison 20A AC duplex power outlet connected to dedicated 20Amp circuit

Edited by darthlaker
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@darthlaker

 

I'm in the 'yes, I've observed cables to make a difference, though I've no solid idea why they do' camp. I've tried one in my system and I had a marked change in SQ; I ended up not liking it quite so much and went back to my stock cable... though honestly there are probably cables out there that do better than my experience, I'm just not disposed to throw more than $100 at it, and some of the allegedly nicer cables I've seen cost considerably more. 

 

I've never had time to chip away at the science behind a good power cable. One might think a good recipe isn't that hard to put together once the problem is understood, and that the markup on these things is huge :D surely there's an honest sparkie somewhere able to put something that works best together at a reasonable rate...

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[mention=113319]frankn[/mention] 
 
A very apt and pertinent comment in the context of this thread and the many other threads on the topic of the treatment of power.   To me it is probably the most contentious matter in audio.  It seems to me that there never ever will be consensus.  For me the treatment of power is critical to achieving a quality SQ outcome.  Everything starts with the power.  I am still often surprised that there is an assumption from some people that:-
1.   The quality of the supply power on the Eastern seaboard is “excellent”
2.   Quality equipment will with appropriate internal regulation and well-designed power supplies mitigate any possible power supply faults.
Maybe the above two points are correct.  I am not convinced.
 
There is constant comment on Stereonet about the significant variation in voltage that people experience that are well outside supposed service standard limits.  There are comments in this thread.  My electrician said to me that he measured supply at house at 280 volts recently.  Wow. How do we know that there are no other poor levels of standards such as in the matters of THD or frequency?  There are glaring examples of poor service in other service industries.  Why not power supply?
 
It is said in this thread and others, that supposedly if the equipment is poor quality and especially if the supply quality is poor then there may be benefit with power treatment.  My perspective and experience, is that even with high quality equipment if the power, regardless of quality is treated before it reaches the equipment the outcome will be even better than if there is no treatment.  To me that is just logical.
 
My equipment is very high quality.  My house power supply is treated with a regenerator for the whole house plus there is a quality conditioner for my audio system.  As well, dare I say it, there are acrolink power cords.  There is a definite beneficial reduction in noise floor.  The listening experience is consequently enhanced.
 
[mention=126009]Jake123[/mention] My suggestion to any one is, don’t take my advice or that of any one else.  This is something that needs to be experienced.  Try power treatment in your own system and make up your own mind.  You may be surprised and rewarded.
John 

I will have to agree with John,

I have been on the past skeptical of the benefits from power conditioning, cables etc.

My advise is listen and decide for yourself.

I know that for my system power conditioning was the biggest improvement (including power cables)

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13 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Across the NEM mainland (everyone on mains bar WA) it's frequency (it's survivable but quite loosely regulated, pardon the pun, for a western nation), ...

For the second quarter of 2018, I see that Tasmania performed badly in respect of mains frequency deviations. The extract below is page 9 of FREQUENCY AND TIME ERROR MONITORING – 2ND QUARTER 2018 FOR THE NATIONAL ELECTRICITY MARKET.

 

I hadn't realised the mains frequency could drift as much as is reported here. It certainly would make use of a record turntable that utilized a synchronous motor a risky proposition!

I'm not sure though that there would be any particularly noticeable effect on other hi-fi equipment.

 

For example, a power transformer intended for a nominal 50Hz mains would operate ok for a short period at 49Hz (a 2% deviation) I would have thought. It's possible that transformer buzz could become a little louder if one had one's ear near the transformer; and measured mains ripple in the DC power supply prior to any regulation would be a little higher.

frequency&timeerrrormonotoring-2ndquarter2018p9.png

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I've noticed that a number of people on this forum have expressed concern about mains power quality. And I've noticed that a small number have mentioned that they were sufficiently concerned that they actually took steps to generate (or regenerate) their own stable mains power for their hi-fi equipment. 

The OP has asked whether a power regenerator contributes anything to the hi-fi system.

My answer would be that in most parts of Australia, with most equipment, for almost all of the time, the mains power will fall within a range of voltage, frequency, and DC offset that will not cause audible ill-effects.

 

There is one aspect though of mains power that I do occasionally notice causing an audible impact: the control tones the supply authority may superimpose on the mains supply at various times of the day or night to control off-peak relays in consumer switchboards (notably for electric hot water systems).  I've noticed that in Brisbane, a series of bursts of the 1050 Hz control tone will last for around 30 seconds.  Most modern hi-fi equipment is immune but 1050 Hz tones may occasionally be heard coming from loudspeakers. (The control tones may also be heard coming from the windings of electric motors.)

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I’ve often wondered if transformer vibration, induced by power issues, results in microphonics that adversely impact sound quality. Perhaps this explains why components with effective power supplies can still benefit from external power regulation?

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@MLXXX that Tasmanian example is nothing - Tasmania is tighter regulated for frequency than the mainland to the point that a lot of the mainland's frequency regulation is handled by Tasmanian hydro assets across Basslink. If you want an exact example, head over to AEMO's FTP server and you can download the 4-second trace for north/south mainland and north/south Tasmania and compare. It's quite clear in thedata.

 

7 hours ago, MLXXX said:

My answer would be that in most parts of Australia, with most equipment, for almost all of the time, the mains power will fall within a range of voltage, frequency, and DC offset that will not cause audible ill-effects.

 

That's a very well-intended if overly-broad statement.

 

It might be better to suggest that whilst mainland/national frequency variances are larger than for other countries they are still acceptable, and are unlikely to cause ill effect in an audible context - however voltage, DC offset and power factor challenges are local distribution problems and some investigation is your distributor may be worthwhile whilst investigating whether power regeneration might do anything positive for you. That best reticulation and good earthing are matters that can be improved within your own home, are priced accessibly, and are things that should be investigated prior to any more serious investments in mains supply for audio equipment (including regeneration, isolation transformers, etc).

 

7 hours ago, MLXXX said:

There is one aspect though of mains power that I do occasionally notice causing an audible impact: the control tones the supply authority may superimpose on the mains supply at various times of the day or night to control off-peak relays in consumer switchboards (notably for electric hot water systems).  I've noticed that in Brisbane, a series of bursts of the 1050 Hz control tone will last for around 30 seconds.  Most modern hi-fi equipment is immune but 1050 Hz tones may occasionally be heard coming from loudspeakers. (The control tones may also be heard coming from the windings of electric motors.)

 

Ripple control filters are are thing, and regeneration would effectively see to that (albeit an expensive way to do it). 

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18 hours ago, MLXXX said:

For the second quarter of 2018, I see that Tasmania performed badly in respect of mains frequency deviations. The extract below is page 9 of FREQUENCY AND TIME ERROR MONITORING – 2ND QUARTER 2018 FOR THE NATIONAL ELECTRICITY MARKET.

 

I hadn't realised the mains frequency could drift as much as is reported here. It certainly would make use of a record turntable that utilized a synchronous motor a risky proposition!

I'm not sure though that there would be any particularly noticeable effect on other hi-fi equipment.

 

For example, a power transformer intended for a nominal 50Hz mains would operate ok for a short period at 49Hz (a 2% deviation) I would have thought. It's possible that transformer buzz could become a little louder if one had one's ear near the transformer; and measured mains ripple in the DC power supply prior to any regulation would be a little higher.

frequency&timeerrrormonotoring-2ndquarter2018p9.png

The frequency deviation of 2% should be inconsequential for ANY transformer manufactured for Australian conditions. That said, I have seen US built and, most particularly, Chinese built products with inadequate iron in the transformers, such that operation at 50Hz (nominal) is a risky proposition. And yes, you are correct, using a turntable with a synchronous motor (without an external, stabilised, frequency source) would be sub-optimal.

Edited by Zaphod Beeblebrox
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22 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

@darthlaker

 

I'm in the 'yes, I've observed cables to make a difference, though I've no solid idea why they do' camp. I've tried one in my system and I had a marked change in SQ; I ended up not liking it quite so much and went back to my stock cable... though honestly there are probably cables out there that do better than my experience, I'm just not disposed to throw more than $100 at it, and some of the allegedly nicer cables I've seen cost considerably more. 

The biggest problem with mains power leads, by a very considerable margin, is the ubiquitous and horribly designed, IEC mains connector. I have acknowledge that this is a weak point in many cables and is the likely reason why some leads may offer superior performance to others. I've examined some VERY expensive IEC connectors, gold plated, rhodium plated, whatever. 'Lipstick on a pig' comes to mind. They all share the same bad design. The connectors could not have been more poorly designed without considerable effort. If one is REALLY serious about improving mains power connections, then there are much, MUCH better options. Here are my favourites:

 

* Employ hardwired mains connections. Nothing is better. Not all the rhodium plated connectors on the planet can be superior to hardwired connections. 

* Neutrik Powercon™. https://www.neutrik.com/en/products/power/powercon-32-a These things are brilliantly engineered connectors. Tough, long lasting and, very importantly, wiping, SILVER contacts. The guys at Neutrik are smart engineers. No snake oil. Just good, solid engineering. 

 

So, if you see an IEC lead promoted as a 'good thing', walk on by. It's rubbish. 

 

Quote

 

I've never had time to chip away at the science behind a good power cable.

Outside a screened power lead, there is none. A mains power lead has to carry, 230VAC @ 50Hz. That's it. It can be done with a bog-standard piece of cable, suitably rated and, most importantly, CERTIFIED. Connections are important, which is why I suggest hardwired connections at one end (or Neutrik Powercon™ connectors) and 15 Amp, HPM mains plugs. 

 

Quote

 

One might think a good recipe isn't that hard to put together once the problem is understood, and that the markup on these things is huge :D surely there's an honest sparkie somewhere able to put something that works best together at a reasonable rate...

Of course, not that it makes any significant difference though.

 

Not once, in the whole history of human-kind, has anyone ever presented the results of a properly conducted double blind test to demonstrate that there is any difference between any two, suitably rated, properly terminated and connected, mains power leads.* 

 

Not once. Not ever. Sort of tells us all we need to know. 

 

* With the possible exception of a shielded mains cable, where poorly shielded interconnects are used.

Edited by Zaphod Beeblebrox
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3 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

@MLXXX that Tasmanian example is nothing - Tasmania is tighter regulated for frequency than the mainland to the point that a lot of the mainland's frequency regulation is handled by Tasmanian hydro assets across Basslink.

 

(I quoted the page for Tasmania simply because for the last quarter of published summary figures for grid frequency deviation, the 2nd quarter of 2018,  that state reportedly performed worse than the mainland. No doubt other reports would show the mainland deviations as being the more severe.)

 

Some readers may not be aware that Basslink utilizes DC, thus making it possible for Tasmania to bolster  the grid in Victoria without any need to match power grid frequencies as between the two states!

 

                              *            *           * 

 

I note that in the last couple of decades various factors have contributed to lessening the short term frequency stability of power grids in some parts of the world, including use of plant with reduced  rotational inertia, and a tendency to operate plant in a manner that reduces costs (in the face of aggressive bidding for supplying power), but which provides less reserve capacity.

 

However a technological factor that goes in the other direction is the emergence of the use of very large batteries and associated inverters to generate AC. This article about the Tesla big battery in South Australia supporting frequency stability and voltage  in Queensland,  when a 560MW power plant went off-line suddenly and unexpectedly in December 2017, illustrates the value of this technology in bolstering network stability:   Tesla big battery outsmarts lumbering coal units after Loy Yang trips

 

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@MLXXX

 

The Tasmanian case you quote is rare, as it pertains to a period where there's been a Basslink outage. This case - where Tasmania operates independently of the mainland - is rare. 

 

I would offer to clarity that whilst Tasmania bids into the Victorian wholesale market directly it should be stressed that frequency regulation is a broadly mainland and not statewide phenomenon. Tasmania (through Basslink), the Hornsdale Power Reserve (large Tesla battery), Snowy Power Scheme and others contribute to frequency regulation nationally where and when states are interconnected, not on a per-state basis. 

 

Asynchronous power generation is indeed growing rapidly. South Australia leads the world here (for better or worse). 

 

I'd also make a few suggestions about the 'Tesla big battery', as that article (and much of what Giles Parkinson publishes to this end) is slightly misleading. 

 

  • The battery didn't respond to the plant tripping, the battery responded to either (i) a SCADA signal communicated nationally to all registered large generators - there is no signal between coal plants that may trip and a battery made by Tesla or others of any size or (ii) a noted deviation in mains frequency that it is similarly contracted for availability to arrest... as are many, many other batteries in Australia that don't get written about nearly as much. What's been observed is simply transmission communications infrastructure and market structures doing their job. 'Outsmarts' is a complete misnomer. 
  • Again, frequency regulation is national, as in across the contiguous AC NEM - all states bar WA (not connected) and TAS (DC link). 
  • Electricity industry insiders are not 'stunned' as the article claims (really we're not).
  • A smaller battery at your home, properly managed, will contribute similarly. One Australian company has been facilitating this service (very successfully) for a few years now. 

@Zaphod Beeblebrox

 

IEC is what it is. It's cheap. I don't fight it. I'd direct connect though I'm not the only one in this house and I appreciate the convenience and please-don't-send-my-stuff-flying-as-you-trip-over-a-cable-ness of a passive disconnect. The Neutrik is nice (~A$45-50 for a set, not too bad if going upmarket).

 

Nice post. Would consider Neutrik for my next amp build. This asides... so what's your recommended decent screened power lead? :D 

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11 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:
  • Electricity industry insiders are not 'stunned' as the article claims (really we're not).
  • A smaller battery at your home, properly managed, will contribute similarly. One Australian company has been facilitating this service (very successfully) for a few years now. 

Yes I had to wonder myself why industry insiders would be "stunned" at the sudden response of the Hornsdale facility in the middle of the night. (It's delightful it did what it should have done.)

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3 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Yes I had to wonder myself why industry insiders would be "stunned" at the sudden response of the Hornsdale facility in the middle of the night. (It's delightful it did what it should have done.)

 

Getting that tech up and running at your home is a legitimate game changer - you get paid to participate proportionate to your contribution. 

 

And (getting back OT) the same equipment, wired correctly, will regenerate your home or the audio bits so valued therein :D 

 

Moral of the story - get a home battery to be part of the future grid, and don't forget to tell your sparkie whilst there that you want your audio system to work when islanded! 

 

I reckon the Victorian govt proposed battery rebate will see this kit up and running for around $4.5k for those already having PV installed. Given a name brand regenerator is within this cost magnitude I'd suggest if you're in Victoria and have solar and are thinking of getting a regenerator for your audio rig... to hold off and just get a home battery instead. Add an isolation transformer if you want and if it's safe for you. 

 

All labour states are likely to follow on this one. 

 

(Of course if you've legitimate voltage rise issues, you'll need voltage correction equipment to let your PV work in the first place). 

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