Power Regenerators. Are they worth it? Do they contribute anything to the HI FI System?

[Jake123]

Considering a power regenerator. 

 

What are the current views on this?

 

Any comments would be helpful. 

 

Thanks 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

6 minutes ago, Jake123 said:

Considering a power regenerator. 

 

What are the current views on this?

 

Any comments would be helpful. 

 

Thanks 

Depends on the equipment and how bad the mains supply in your area is. Here are some very broad generalisations, based on my measurements and observations, based on a PS Audio regenerator.

 

* A regenerator may assist with poor quality equipment and products that lack any kind of regulation in their power supplies. Particularly if the mains supply is poor quality.

* A regenerator is likely to do diddly for equipment that uses internal regulation (pretty much every solid state preamp, CD player, etc).

* A regenerator is likely to diddly for equipment that uses large, well designed power supplies (big transformers, lots of filter caps, etc).

 

[Jake123]

Thanks Zaphod Beeblebrox

 

[Mr_Gimlet]

I think you will find views are polarising. I have a PSAudio unit and I am very happy with it but I might be conning myself; my power supply is a bit grubby but not that bad. There's a big second hand market for them in WA because of the terrible power.

[frankn]

If you can get a supplier to provide a regeneration unit to evaluate in your system at no cost to you it’s no issue on whether someone else says yes or no. 

Like many topics in audio, it’s a contentious subject. 

[soundbyte]

My audio system power supply is a APC 3000VA UPS,  a sine wave output device.

 

Never had any issues with it and it does help if there is a power outage, nothing just instantly loses power and I can arrange a proper shutdown of amplifiers etc.

 

Whether it makes any difference, I have not tested, maybe time for another GTG to test that out?

[Guest rmpfyf]

5 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Depends on the equipment and how bad the mains supply in your area is.

 

+1

 

You may be surprised how bad (or how good) your mains is. Try before you buy, and get a good sparkie in to do everything reasonable for your audio mains before you do anything. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by rmpfyf

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 18/09/2018 at 2:38 PM, soundbyte said:

My audio system power supply is a APC 3000VA UPS,  a sine wave output device.

 

Never had any issues with it and it does help if there is a power outage, nothing just instantly loses power and I can arrange a proper shutdown of amplifiers etc.

 

Whether it makes any difference, I have not tested, maybe time for another GTG to test that out?

Fifth wheel, Porsche. You get the idea. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[rocky500]

Power regeneration was a big plus for my system as it gave me a more consistent sound day or night.

Previously some days the system sounded closed in and pretty hard to listen too while other times it was quite amazing. Now with a Regen I can enjoy it more any time.

 

5 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

* A regenerator may assist with poor quality equipment and products that lack any kind of regulation in their power supplies. Particularly if the mains supply is poor quality.

Maybe my components are not up to Zaph standards but a Regen was a very welcome addition to my listening pleasure.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

13 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

Power regeneration was a big plus for my system as it gave me a more consistent sound day or night.

Previously some days the system sounded closed in and pretty hard to listen too while other times it was quite amazing. Now with a Regen I can enjoy it more any time.

 

Maybe my components are not up to Zaph standards but a Regen was a very welcome addition to my listening pleasure.

 

Parts of WA have very poor quality mains power. That, combined with poor quality regulation in the equipment you may be using, could be why you have found an improvement under DBT conditions.

[Guest deanB]

Hi Jake, have you done any diagnosis around under/over voltage issues or noisy line issues. If you don't have these problems, then probably not worth it. Spend the money on power cords instead. Just joking, spend it on more music.

I'm in Perth, we have voltage issues. Voltages at my joint over the years has been as low as 208v and as high as 255v. I run valve amps and reckon the steady 235v I set my PS Audio P10 at makes it worthwhile having from the peace of mind pov. 

From the sq angle, it sounds pretty much the same as from the wall (dedicated line), through a PSA Dectet. No unmissable improvement in sq with the P10 in the set up, so not a selling point for me. Of slight interest, combining the P10 and the Dectet takes a few % off the load on the P10, but again I didn't notice a change in sq.

 

[soundbyte]

23 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Fifth, wheel, Porsche. You get the idea.

Yep, left over from a server room, does service with the computers at home as well.

Nothing like a little overkill! 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 minute ago, soundbyte said:

Yep, left over from a server room, does service with the computers at home as well.

Nothing like a little overkill! 

Depends. Most computer UPS devices exhibit far higher levels of distortion than mains power (in most places), though some are OK, they're poorer than a proper audio one. Blackouts are rarely a problem for audio products. Blackouts were/are a problem for computers, because, in the old days, hard drive heads were not self-parking and, of course, there's that pesky data loss problem. These issues, for the most part, are not problems for audio equipment. 

[Full Range]

I have and use a Thor power conditioner - Not because I have dirty power but because I have to much power at the outlet 

 

My wall outlet normally has 245 to 250V AC and the highest that was tested by an electrician was 259V AC 

Thats when I decided to add power conditioner 

 

So it serves a purpose to supply constant 240V to my components 

 

 

 

[Jake123]

Thanks Guys,  Food for thought

[Guest rmpfyf]

4 hours ago, deanB said:

I'm in Perth, we have voltage issues. Voltages at my joint over the years has been as low as 208v and as high as 255v.

 

Got down to 186VAC here once. 'Twas an 'issue'. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by rmpfyf

[Guest deanB]

30 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Got down to 186VAC here once. 'Twas an 'issue'. 

Over here in the West? That is wicked. Did you get on to your supplier?

The P10 struggled to provide 230v the day it was 208v at the wall.

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

5 minutes ago, deanB said:

Over here in the West? That is wicked. Did you get on to your supplier?

The P10 struggled to provide 230v the day it was 208v at the wall.

 

East. Was indeed wicked. My distributor heard about it and we ended up having the entire street rebalanced. 

 

Moral of the story: cheapest mod you'll make for power is ensuring your local distribution is OK!

[Assisi]

On 18/09/2018 at 1:02 PM, frankn said:

Like many topics in audio, it’s a contentious subject.

@frankn 

 

A very apt and pertinent comment in the context of this thread and the many other threads on the topic of the treatment of power.   To me it is probably the most contentious matter in audio.  It seems to me that there never ever will be consensus.  For me the treatment of power is critical to achieving a quality SQ outcome.  Everything starts with the power.  I am still often surprised that there is an assumption from some people that:-

1.   The quality of the supply power on the Eastern seaboard is “excellent”

2.   Quality equipment will with appropriate internal regulation and well-designed power supplies mitigate any possible power supply faults.

Maybe the above two points are correct.  I am not convinced.

 

There is constant comment on Stereonet about the significant variation in voltage that people experience that are well outside supposed service standard limits.  There are comments in this thread.  My electrician said to me that he measured supply at house at 280 volts recently.  Wow. How do we know that there are no other poor levels of standards such as in the matters of THD or frequency?  There are glaring examples of poor service in other service industries.  Why not power supply?

 

It is said in this thread and others, that supposedly if the equipment is poor quality and especially if the supply quality is poor then there may be benefit with power treatment.  My perspective and experience, is that even with high quality equipment if the power, regardless of quality is treated before it reaches the equipment the outcome will be even better than if there is no treatment.  To me that is just logical.

 

My equipment is very high quality.  My house power supply is treated with a regenerator for the whole house plus there is a quality conditioner for my audio system.  As well, dare I say it, there are acrolink power cords.  There is a definite beneficial reduction in noise floor.  The listening experience is consequently enhanced.

 

@Jake123 My suggestion to any one is, don’t take my advice or that of any one else.  This is something that needs to be experienced.  Try power treatment in your own system and make up your own mind.  You may be surprised and rewarded.

John 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Assisi

[MLXXX]

55 minutes ago, Assisi said:

There is a definite beneficial reduction in noise floor. 

What do you mean by "noise floor" in this context?

 

For example:

• Do you mean a background noise that is audible between tracks of a CD, or tracks of a vinyl disc?  What does the noise sound like?
• Are you referring to power transformer buzz?
• Are you referring to a gated noise, i.e. a noise that becomes audible only when signal is present?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

9 hours ago, Assisi said:

@frankn 

 

A very apt and pertinent comment in the context of this thread and the many other threads on the topic of the treatment of power.   To me it is probably the most contentious matter in audio.  It seems to me that there never ever will be consensus.

 

Of course not. For several reasons:

* Different systems have different problems. A person running a simple valve amp, that employs no regulated power supplies in parts of WA will experience different problems to another listener using a modern Class D amp in Sydney, for instance.

* Some listeners will have very serious room problems that will swamp any minute issues that may be attributable to mains power issues.

* Some listeners are peculiarly resistant to logic, common-sense and proper blind testing procedures and will be swayed by snake oil promoters. Other listeners may be more logical and prepared to be subject to a proper blind test to establish the veracity of the claims surrounding products that are not needed in the vast majority of systems.

 

Quote

 

  For me the treatment of power is critical to achieving a quality SQ outcome.  Everything starts with the power.

 

No. Everything starts with the room/speaker interaction. Those are, by a very considerable margin, the most important parts of any audio system. 

 

Quote

 

 

  I am still often surprised that there is an assumption from some people that:-

1.   The quality of the supply power on the Eastern seaboard is “excellent”

For the most part it is. In some areas, mains power may be poorer quality. 

 

Quote

2.   Quality equipment will with appropriate internal regulation and well-designed power supplies mitigate any possible power supply faults.

Maybe the above two points are correct.  I am not convinced.

I am. I've performed a whole slew of blind tests to establish this. Have you? There is no doubt that poorly designed equipment, that does not use regulated power supplies and/or displays poor PSRR (Power Supply Rejection Ratio), may benefit from using a regenerator. Moreso, if the mains power is poor quality.

 

Quote

 

There is constant comment on Stereonet about the significant variation in voltage that people experience that are well outside supposed service standard limits.  There are comments in this thread.  My electrician said to me that he measured supply at house at 280 volts recently.  Wow.

 

If that figure is normal then you should:

* Contact your supplier immediately to rectify a situation that is clearly well beyond the limits dictated by electricity authorities.

* Unplug EVERYTHING in your home immediately, as damage to all your appliances is likely. I would certainly expect that, if what your electrician claims is correct, that the old incandescent lamps would exhibit an EXTREMELY short life in your home. 

 

Personally, I don't believe it. 

Quote

 

How do we know that there are no other poor levels of standards such as in the matters of THD or frequency?

 

Frequency of Australian mains supply is VERY close to 50Hz all the time. THD is a whole nuther issue, complicated by the proliferation of various items that can cause a rise in various distortions of the supply. In general, however, the power supplies in most products render the problem moot. Don't lose any sleep over it. 

Quote

 

 

  There are glaring examples of poor service in other service industries.  Why not power supply?

Indeed. Parts of WA have had poor mains power for decades. Most of the rest of the nation is pretty good. The same cannot be said for most of the US, which is where most of the regenerators are designed and built. IOW: Regenerators are designed to address a problem that, for the most part, does not exist in Australia.

 

Quote

 

It is said in this thread and others, that supposedly if the equipment is poor quality and especially if the supply quality is poor then there may be benefit with power treatment.  My perspective and experience, is that even with high quality equipment if the power, regardless of quality is treated before it reaches the equipment the outcome will be even better than if there is no treatment.  To me that is just logical.

The problem with that logic is that reducing a non-existent problem may achieve nothing. 

 

 

Quote

 

My equipment is very high quality.  My house power supply is treated with a regenerator for the whole house plus there is a quality conditioner for my audio system.

 

Your whole house?! 

 

Really? 

 

What is the capacity of your regenerator?

 

Most mid sized homes require around 25kW of peak power. Is your regenerator capable of that?

 

I doubt it.

 

Quote

 

 

  As well, dare I say it, there are acrolink power cords.  There is a definite beneficial reduction in noise floor.  The listening experience is consequently enhanced.

 

Here's where your credibility is shredded. Mains power leads have never, ever been shown to make any difference (assuming connections are secure and that lead dress ensures no interference is possible). Never ever.

 

[EDIT] I just glanced at the Acrolink site. YIKES! 

 

"Electromagnetic wave absorbing non-magnetic cord"

 

I trust that you realise two things about that:

 

1) It won't work.

2) A shielded cable is the only way to achieve EMI reduction in a cable.

 

Quote

 

@Jake123 My suggestion to any one is, don’t take my advice or that of any one else.  This is something that needs to be experienced.  Try power treatment in your own system and make up your own mind.  You may be surprised and rewarded.

John 

Or, more likely, it will be a complete waste of time, money and effort. Far more profound and useful benefits will accrue from room treatments. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[eltech]

5 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

2) A shielded cable is the only way to achieve EMI reduction in a cable.

You forgot about ferrite cores which work well at RF frequencies

Edited September 20, 2018 by eltech

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Just now, eltech said:

You forgot about ferrite cores which work well.

Ferrite cores will not prevent a mains power cable from emitting EMI. Ferrite cores are designed to reduce the level of high frequency hash from leaving a product. Either way, the core in the Acrolink mains power cables will do nothing.

[eltech]

13 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

hash from leaving a product

they work both ways, in and out.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, eltech said:

they work both ways, in and out.

Of course, it's just that they don't achieve anything useful on the way in. Mains bourne interference cannot make it's way through the power transformer, rectifiers and filters. Interference comes through the air, which is why some products are fitted with ferrite toroids. Often it is a requirement of the US FTC and other regulators.