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Neilsy

I've been 'HDMI'd'...

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Over many articles we've all read, experiences had or not, opinions expressed whether agreed to or not, I did want to drop a quick note of a recent experience of my own in, and hopefully it helps anyone else solve the problems I had.
 
Yes, I was 'HDMI'd'...and it is a thing.
 
The cables are not the same.
Whether cheap or expensive there are certainly differences which may be reducing your visual experience in colour, HDR, frame rate and resolution - even getting an actual picture.
 
I had a JVC X500 paired with a Oppo BDP-105D. Things were great.
4K came out and I waited until that UDP-205 was released and I jumped on it and ensured I had an included "4K capable" HDMI cable (10m and $500..discounted)
 
Wow, 4K goes well. Very nice. All is good.
 
I then upgrade to the JVC X9500 Projector.
It supports HDR, 12-bit colour and everything greater.
 
So I plug it in.
Result : no picture.
OK..
Change settings..
No picture.
 
After a lot of playing around I finally get a picture of 3840x2160@24hz. Yay
And it does look nicer than the previous projector.
 
Do I receive a HDR signal? No..
Can I get above 24hz, such as 50 or 60hz?
No.. Oh wait, yes if I run Source Direct and then I get 50hz @ 1080p on the Oppo menu and therefore 1080p@24hz on blurays.
So now a $2.2k up scaling Oppo is a giant blu ray player....
 
Forums endlessly state it's not HDMI cables, it can't be!! Etc etc
 
I get my projector professionally calibrated... I quiz him about it. "never encountered this" he says.
 
My patience wore out and did some research between specs....
Long short is check your bandwidth specs. Whenever a HDMI cable goes over 5m or so watch the brands don't advertise the throughput in Gbps. Because often they drop it, to retain latency, or something along those lines.
 
So I bailed up any supplier I could and finally found stock locally of a 18Gbps 10m HDMI cable.
 
I plug it in.
 
Instant fix. For $171.
 
3840x2160@24hz, 50hz, etc
Full 12-bit colour, 4:4:4 chroma output, HDR10 logo pops up and projector clicks into HDR mode, blurays up scaled again and it's never looked so smooth!
 
So after many frustrations it was my gut feeling I should have trusted and the HDMI was a bottleneck. It obviously was only 10Gbps and couldn't handle all the data and simply failed to give the projector a signal.
 
I just wanted to post this not to rule it out, particularly for those running 4k content and over longer runs, such as projectors.
 
Most 1-5m cables are 18Gbps to 27Gbps, so hardly getting caught out. It's the longer runs that suffer so just be vigilant (#channelninesfavouriteword) and diligent to ask and ensure your cable is at least 18Gbps when looking for everything 4K and UHD can offer when making that cable investment
 


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Thanks for this as im also running a 10m HDMI cable through the walls and roof. No idea of the specs though but as im only running 1080P resolution it hasn't been an issue although I now suspect it will when I make the jump to 4K.

 

Sidenote - I hate the HDMI connector format with a passion bested only by Apples POS lightning connector! #bringbackbnc 

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5 hours ago, Tubularbells said:

Thanks for this as im also running a 10m HDMI cable through the walls and roof. No idea of the specs though but as im only running 1080P resolution it hasn't been an issue although I now suspect it will when I make the jump to 4K.

 

Sidenote - I hate the HDMI connector format with a passion bested only by Apples POS lightning connector! #bringbackbnc 

Yep. You use a high spec cable with appropriate shielding or whatever and it becomes heavy. Result- your sockets wear after time and the cable sags. Or the cable moves ever so slightly and image or sound flickers.P**** of an idea 

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10 hours ago, Neilsy said:

Over many articles we've all read, experiences had or not, opinions expressed whether agreed to or not, I did want to drop a quick note of a recent experience of my own in, and hopefully it helps anyone else solve the problems I had.
 
Yes, I was 'HDMI'd'...and it is a thing.
 

neilsy, pity you have been HDMI'd I too have been.... well more learning on the run as happens as an early adopter, have had to try, buy, sell and finally a while back now got something that works.

 

about 2.5 years ago the situation was so dire ! on the launch of UHD and us not having suitable cables, I posted the thread below,

 

indeed it sucks... and continues to suck ! 

 

what we have unfortunately are hdmi chipset versions... of which makers are not under compunction to enable all features... and then cable standards ... that go back way back... and we just have the two std and high speed. its unfortunate that these were obviously never policed or we have makers that have relaxed cables even if high speed as all they needed to do was support blu-ray previously.

 

hdmi v2.0 and hdcp 2.2 changed all that... with launch of uhd we had equipment not only capable of pushing full 18gbps bandwidth ... but also hdcp 2.2 doing hand shaking that if not perfect falls over result ... no signal ! 

 

The problem hasnt been short cables 1-1.5m even say 2m but over that it was anyones guess. at the start of this we had no choice. and to clean up their act hdmi org released a certification program

https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/premiumcable/Premium_HDMI_Cable_Certification_Program.aspx

 

which meant you could buy a cable premium certified and could buy in confidence that it would pass full bandwidth 18gbps. however problem was they only came in very short lengths 1m and such which was not the problem in the first place. 

 

some good new in that over the last 2.5 years these have steadily grown to point that we now indeed have longer premium certified cables. with the longest upto now 30ft and relatively reasonably priced...

 

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=21510

 

however at 30ft ... that still leaves us short for those wanting a 10m cable eg for projector runs ie 32ft ! we are so close but still no cigar....

 

so in the mean time what we have is STILL no premium certified hdmi cables for longer lengths 10m+

 

so as early adopters (2.5 years post uhd launch) we are left to find alternatives with good news they do exist...

 

$69 office works comsol 10m high speed uhd and it is a conventional copper 

https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/comsol-high-speed-hdmi-cable-with-ethernet-10m-cohdmi100

 

I've been using this no probs full bandwidth.. but it works off my marantz av processor which is key. some others eg with yamaha have found that doesnt work ( not enough juice to drive ?) so this is still a equipment combination thing. Fortunately office works are very kind in letting you test and return no questions.

 

ruipro hdmi fibre 10m+ start at $249

https://www.ezyhd.com.au/shop/ruipro-hdmi-fibre-cable-15m-4k/

lot more expensive but these have been tested extensively to prove they work. and over 10m eg 11m there is no other solution I can think off with the cred this has.

 

under 10m there are likely other options. though i would suggest fully test. use the apple 4k atv and xbox oneX cable test facilities. or the oppo home menu all will confirm on bandwidth capability. 

 

10 hours ago, Neilsy said:

3840x2160@24hz, 50hz, etc
Full 12-bit colour, 4:4:4 chroma output, HDR10 logo pops up and projector clicks into HDR mode, blurays up scaled again and it's never looked so smooth!

just one point on this, the article below is very good in demystifying hdmi.

 

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/

 

12bit for instance is NOT required for HDR10... thats what the 10 signifies ... 10bit :) so dont make it hard for yourself ...

 

note the table on formats and bandwidth required....

 

HDMI-color-spaces.png

 

also note below what they say that there is absolutely no benefit to unnecessary upsampling to 4:4:4 either... again just making harder for your self :)

"Note that there appears to be some confusion about exactly what is supported in the HDMI specification, even among manufacturers and industry participants. Some people we discussed this article said 4:2:0 was supported at 24/25/30, others said that as of 2.0a 4:2:2 was supported at 10 bit. In the absence of a clear industry wide understanding we will stick to the information published on the HDMI website.

There is no intrinsic benefit to the source upsampling to 4:4:4 or converting to RGB. With respect to UHD and HDMI it is actually beneficial if the conversion to 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and RGB is, as much as possible, left to the display, as this reduces the HDMI bandwidth requirements."

 

at end of it... unfortunately it isnt all just down to cables. I had someone drop me a line saying they bought a ruipro and still having problems... guaranteed unless some rare cable issue, you can be pretty sure there is something else going on in the mix... since hdmi still very unfortunately remains a mine field with all the interactions that need to occur for success.. all ducks need to line up... one out of place slightly .... and expect issues :D

 

ps you should also share what cable you actually used.... this is important for others searching for solutions.... 

 

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it doesnt end here either by the way... 

 

hdmi org last year released hdmi v2.1 again not a cable spec this is a spec of hdmi chipsets. it takes the chipsets up to higher bandwidth capability 48 gbps. 8k and such. and other features. many of us will have NO current need for this. but it is coming. and like previous chip sets the makers are under no need to implement all features of the spec....

 

https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/

 

so guess what you can still use the current and existing cables wiht equipment that is hdmi 2.1 specd, unless wanting all the features and spec capable. and if you want that they have released a new cable type of ...

 

"Ultra High speed cable"

 

cable.jpg

 

hopefully we can keep ourself fully aware as we go forward, to best not caught aware in the mine field ... that hdmi continues to be for people....

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11 hours ago, Neilsy said:

Forums endlessly state it's not HDMI cables, it can't be!!

It totally can be.    Many HDMI cables are not reliably capable of >10gbps (or even that) bandwidth, depending on what equipment you use it with.   Which will affect formats that require more data rate (eg. 2 or more of, 4K, high frame rate, HDR)

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Great points Al!
I'll give it a go dialling back to 4:2:2 on the Oppo and let the JVC take it up from there just to see if that makes any changes.

I'll post up the brand when I'm next in my HT. Think it was Kordz

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4 minutes ago, Neilsy said:

Great points Al!
I'll give it a go dialling back to 4:2:2 on the Oppo and let the JVC take it up from there just to see if that makes any changes.

I'll post up the brand when I'm next in my HT. Think it was Kordz

if its all working i wouldnt bother changing anything neilsy. I just run the factory settings on the oppo for output and works. it was more if people are having troubles theres no need to crank up the output and  what could be stressing things unnecessarily. 

 

yes do post your cable. I used a kordz in early days too :)

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12 hours ago, :) al said:

so guess what you can still use the current and existing cables wiht equipment that is hdmi 2.1 specd, unless wanting all the features and spec capable. and if you want that they have released a new cable type of …

And worth noting that some new hdmi 2.1 features like e-arc are compatible with hdmi2.0a if the chipset has been already programmed ; like for example the latest Marantz avr's -sr 6012 :) Unless your a gamer that wants VRR there is no use for the 8k bandwidth of hdmi2.1 for many years...
 

Quote

 

 eARC (Enhanced Audio Return Channel) will be supported via a firmware update as well.


 

 

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Kordz PRS3 is all I used (see attached) DSC_1932.JPG

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Interesting.  I have an Oppo95 blu ray, connected to my TV with hdmi.  It works OK when I use hdmi output 2 on the Oppo, but not output 1.  Have never understood why, and I have tried another hdmi cable.  Perhaps I need a cable with higher spec's. 

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5 hours ago, audiofeline said:

Interesting.  I have an Oppo95 blu ray, connected to my TV with hdmi.  It works OK when I use hdmi output 2 on the Oppo, but not output 1.  Have never understood why, and I have tried another hdmi cable.  Perhaps I need a cable with higher spec's. 

I had the same configuration when I had a 95 audiofeline . As the 95 is SD not UHD  a normal hdmi hi speed cables bandwidth is fine . I suspect your trouble is how you have setup your dsd output for sacd's . If your feeding a dsd bitstream to a dsd capable dac out of hdmi 2 everything will be fine . But if you feed the sacd signal from hdmi 1 I would switch the 95;s dsd output to lpcm so the 95 can do the conversion;)

Not sure if the mediatek chipset on hdmi 1 is a factor here ; the qdeo on hdmi 2 may be compatible with pure dsd . Its all a bit hazy as time goes by :blush:  You should get a little icon on the oppo saying pcm or dsd depending.

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33 minutes ago, cwt said:

I had the same configuration when I had a 95 audiofeline . As the 95 is SD not UHD  a normal hdmi hi speed cables bandwidth is fine . I suspect your trouble is how you have setup your dsd output for sacd's . If your feeding a dsd bitstream to a dsd capable dac out of hdmi 2 everything will be fine . But if you feed the sacd signal from hdmi 1 I would switch the 95;s dsd output to lpcm so the 95 can do the conversion;)

Not sure if the mediatek chipset on hdmi 1 is a factor here ; the qdeo on hdmi 2 may be compatible with pure dsd . Its all a bit hazy as time goes by :blush:  You should get a little icon on the oppo saying pcm or dsd depending.

Thanks for the advice.  I don't have a dac, audio from the 95 is via the rca's to the hifi for listening, audio+video to the TV via the hdmi.  I will see if these settings change things. 

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4 hours ago, audiofeline said:

Thanks for the advice.  I don't have a dac, audio from the 95 is via the rca's to the hifi for listening, audio+video to the TV via the hdmi.  I will see if these settings change things. 

To clarify as I wasn't precise ;  when I said dac I meant the dac in your avr or pre pro ; not a stand alone one . If that's it at all .. The next gen oppos used different abt chipsets and the dsd was routed out a different hdmi  out ; it got complicated again if you had the darbee version :) 

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On 11/09/2018 at 9:55 AM, :) al said:

hdmi org last year released hdmi v2.1 again not a cable spec

Sure.... but a new cable spec was released at the same time (category 3, aka ultra high speed) ... although all backwards/forwards compatible.

 

So much hand wringing around the place re: HDMI marketing rules, and standards etc. ... which is just <bleep> IMVHO.   I mean HDMI is terrible, sure ... but people are also sometimes a bit unfair.

 

Everyone should jump on cat 3 cables ASAP - as while they don't fix a lot of the design faults with HDMI, they will give everyone much better experience for typical to long cables trying to get BD UHD/HDR type formats through....   Cat 3 has been so long overdue.... as Cat 2 was not only not spec'd enough, but it was not certified to those (insufficient) specs... and consumers are just stuck with dumb luck mostly.

 

Dunno if Cat 3 was just plain "not ready" when UHD came out ..... or if HDMI were too scared to tell the market "yes, you will need a new cable" ..... or if it was a "scam".    Unfortunately, I suspect that later.

Edited by davewantsmoore

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I can confirm the new Space Hifi Saturn Series 3m HDMI cables work for me with the following set up:

 

Yamaha A3080, Sony z9,  Apple TV4K, Oppo 203, XBox1X all at 2160p @60hz  4:4:4 

 

Due to the relatively short cable run I'd been using other cables which worked (most of the time) but I would get the occasional dropped frame (black screen flash). Consensus seems to be that the Yamaha AVRs are particularly fickle with HDMI conditions.

 

I upgraded on speculation and hope that it would resolve this.  

I tried some CableChick premium ones which didn't end up supporting the above resolution in 4:4:4. Upon closer inspection it turned out they were made with 30AWG copper. (CableChick happily refunded them and I have no problem with using them again for other things in the future).

Guessing that the AWG and chipset specs would be the main determining factor in performance, I tried reviewing specs online looking for short run lengths of 26AWG or greater.

 

The Space HiFi Saturn ones were the only version I could find (they are 24AWG) in short run lengths, a lot of the manufacturers don't publish specs which makes it hard. I had to wait a few weeks for them to be released as they are a new production version for the company. It's been about 3-4 weeks since install. So far they have worked and without any drop outs which is all you can really expect and want in an HDMI cable.

 

 

https://www.spacehifi.com.au/cables-and-connectors/hdmi-cables/2m-hdmi-cable-space-saturn-series

 

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