Advice from the tube buffs please

[cazzesman]

Folks I am almost a 100% Tube 'no nothing'.  I do know what they are and how to replace them.   I do know the difference b/t Tube and Solid State equipment but that is about it.

 

I own a Elektra PYNX pre and a few weeks back changed the 4 x 6922 tubes within. 

 

I recently purchased a LampizatOr Level 5 on SNA.  It is a two box set up with DAC/Pre in one and the power supply in the other.   

 

The Dac/Pre is running 2  x E182CC (7119) tubes and the Power Supply has 2 x Bendix 5852 6x5 Rectifiers.  I have learnt what the Rectifiers do.

 

The previous owner generously supplied 4 sets of additional Tube Rectifiers with the purchase. 

 

From top to bottom, left to right they have the following # and markings.

 

322 RX-3 (6x5 WGT)  Tung-Sol    Made in the USA

6x5 Super Radiotron    Made in Australia

6x5c VI 74   OTK3  

6x5 GT Sylvania    Made in the USA

 

So is there anything to be gained from Tube Rolling (I learnt that on google) the Rectifiers and if so any thoughts on the 4 spares and the Bendix in situ?

 

Also research and word on the street is that Bendix 6900 tubes are the 'Ducks Guts' for the Dac/Pre.  And yes I do know a pair is expensive.   Any thoughts on the 6900 or a cheaper tube, worth rolling though the Dac/Pre.   The brilliant design of the L5 is that the tubes in both Dac and Power Supply are exposed in a cavity underneath each unit, so access is easy.  

 

Schools in guys................educate me please.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

[Ihearmusic]

Keep googling. Plenty of opinions to be found on Google.

[TerryO]

1 hour ago, Ihearmusic said:

Keep googling. Plenty of opinions to be found on Google.

Yes there is and much of it links back to this site.

[ochremoon]

Why don't you roll the rectifiers you have and learn about the differences each makes (or not)? No amount of internet opinion will beat listening in your own setup.

[Ittaku]

Others hear massive differences when changing rectifier tubes. Me, I've never heard any change from them whatsoever. I suspect if the power draw from the rectifier tube is substantial that changes in rectifiers make a big difference (such as valve guitar amps) whilst lower power applications, such as a preamp, the choice of rectifier tube makes little difference. In my case, I only have rectifier tubes in my preamp and changes there are inaudible.

[PicoWattson]

+1 with the last post. I have spent many hours trying to discern differences in rectifier tube swaps in various preamps over the years and have come to realise cable swaps have a more significant impact. There are however many claims on various forums to the contrary so I'd roll a few as suggested and see if your ears up for it.

[cazzesman]

Thanks to Ittaku and Pico.  That's the kind of thing I was after.   My ears are pushing 60.   Probably not at their peak.

 

Re the other Tubes.  Research is suggesting the 5687, 7119, 7044 and 6900 tubes will all work in the Unit.  Is that a correct assumption?

 

Regards Cazzesman

Edited September 8, 2018 by cazzesman

[aussievintage]

I also agree changing rectifiers will make little difference, but will add, I'd give the Aussie Radiotron's a go.  I have a lot of them in my spares bin and when choosing a 12AX7 or 12AU7  for a preamp, they often give the others a run for their money.   We made good valves!

[Bronal]

19 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I also agree changing rectifiers will make little difference, but will add, I'd give the Aussie Radiotron's a go.  I have a lot of them in my spares bin and when choosing a 12AX7 or 12AU7  for a preamp, they often give the others a run for their money.   We made good valves!

I agree.  Australian Radiotrons and Miniwatts are as good as any other valves from anywhere.

[eman]

Since I was a total tube newb too I changed all mine about to check out for myself.

I did notice a difference between rectifiers.

[Ittaku]

20 minutes ago, eman said:

Since I was a total tube newb too I changed all mine about to check out for myself.

I did notice a difference between rectifiers.

There's nothing like testing for yourself. In what application, and what difference did you notice?

[eman]

23 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

There's nothing like testing for yourself. In what application, and what difference did you notice?

Integrated Amp as per my sig.

 

Lesser or better clarity generally as I recall. 

Tested stock Chinese through Vintage US Mil Spec. and slight tube designation within type.

[Ittaku]

Just now, eman said:

Integrated Amp as per my sig.

 

Lesser or better clarity generally as I recall. 

Tested stock Chinese through Vintage US Mil Spec. and slight tube designation within type.

Thanks, that's interesting. This goes with my theory that higher power applications are more likely to be audibly affected. My preamp is massively overpowered and tube regulated and drives two power amps with input impedances of 200k which means that it'd never get even remotely close to using all of the current supplied by the single rectifier.

[djb]

40 minutes ago, eman said:

 

"Tested stock Chinese through Vintage US Mil Spec. and slight tube designation within type"

 

I’m with eman.

If your wealthy and your system is complete then roll to your hearts content and let your imagination convince you there’s substantial differences between valves with identical specs.

If your system needs tweaking elsewhere spend your dollars there.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by djb

[eman]

Make sure you are convinced of your "imagination "  so you can do the same with cables etc

[denimhunter]

Rolling rectifier tubes do make a lot of difference. I have a Lampi 7 with DHT and I am using 80 tube as rectifier.

But I would tend to find the ‘right’ output tube first. Then use the rectifier to tune the sound. Rectifier can  change the tone of the system. Some output tubes tend to work with particular type/make of tubes so there’s no absolute best.

Have u tried ST or coke bottle 6x5g such as gec if they fit into ur dac? The shape of the valve often makes a difference and because they are from an earlier period. 

[unclekanus]

I agree with everyone in that there is only one way to find out if you can hear a difference between rectifiers... you have to try them out. I can hear differences and they are usually changes in tonal balance and clarity which alter the perceived speed, top end extension and sound stage. The Bendix tubes are very good. Overbuilt, long life tubes that are almost immune to vibration and microphonics. They were made for use in fighter jets, not sitting on a shelf in a dac!! Read one of the data sheets and you'll see what I'm getting at. My experience with Bendix tubes (including the 6900) is that they are very accurate. Some might say solid state or mechanical sounding, I say least tubey and that is a compliment.

You have a few to try so you will no doubt find one you like. There aren't many options for 6x5's that I know of other than trying different makes of the same tube. Maybe someone else knows of some others?

For the e182cc, I would tend to stick with it. They are a great tube that will outlast all other options by a long stretch, apart from the Bendix 6900. I know Mr Lampi was always a huge fan of the Russian 6n6p until he found the e182cc.

There are plenty of more affordable, readily available options but he went with those for the sound quality. 

The next best or equal to the e182cc are the late 40's black ladder plate Tung Sol 5687 but they are rare and finding decent ones is tough. The bronze plate Tung Sol's and Gold Brand gold pin Sylvania's are nice but a bit too warm and smooth for mine. All other 5687's are still good and better than the US made 7044 tubes in my system but I do like the e182cc more. 

If I had a pair of 6900's I'd be happy for you to try them but unfortunately I only have the one.

To be honest, I don't think that they would be worth the money for the upgrade without changing the circuit a bit and even then, finding a pair would be pretty tough.

Did you try changing out any of the rectifiers yet? And how are you finding the dac in general? 

 

[Guest scumbag]

On 09/09/2018 at 6:57 PM, djb said:

 

Am i to conclude from your remark that you don't think tubes of the same spec from different manufacturers sound different? 

[Ittaku]

52 minutes ago, scumbag said:

Am i to conclude from your remark that you don't think tubes of the same spec from different manufacturers sound different? 

Yes I believe the sarcasm level was high.

[Guest scumbag]

No, lets not assume sarcasm. Let's let him answer my question.

[RoHo]

I have pasted below a post Grand Poo-bah Marc made regarding tube rolling on his Elektra pre-amp.

It is the absolutely bestest post I have ever, ever seen regarding tube rolling:

 

" 1. Awesome pre-amp. World class.

  2. I have extensively tube-rolled this pre with anything weird, wonderful and exotic I could  get  my hands on.

 

I made massive improvements. Then Arthur came around and asked me what I had done.

I put the originals back in. We both agreed, it was superior with the originally supplied tubes.

 

 Make of that what you will.  "

 

[Guest scumbag]

18 minutes ago, RoHo said:

I have pasted below a post Grand Poo-bah Marc made regarding tube rolling on his Elektra pre-amp.

It is the absolutely bestest post I have ever, ever seen regarding tube rolling:

 

" 1. Awesome pre-amp. World class.

  2. I have extensively tube-rolled this pre with anything weird, wonderful and exotic I could  get  my hands on.

 

I made massive improvements. Then Arthur came around and asked me what I had done.

I put the originals back in. We both agreed, it was superior with the originally supplied tubes.

 

 Make of that what you will.  "

 

Marc's comments seem to suggest that he did hear differences in tubes and as to whether they were an overall improvement in the end, well that's summed up in point 2. I know he's loath to get involved in these debates so I don't know if he'll confirm or correct my interpretation.

In more general terms, people need to stop conflating the terms "improvement" and "different".  I have run many sets of 6922, 7DJ8 and 12AU7 tubes (and variants) in my PS Audio BHK preamp. They all sounded different. Better? Maybe. That's why you find yourself listening for a few hours or days then swapping out. Then you circle back to a reference just as a sanity check. And yes, often you go back to a set of tubes that you thought had been superseded by another.

My point is, you ARE hearing differences in the tubes. As to whether it's an improvement, that is another matter.

Edited September 11, 2018 by scumbag

[RoHo]

What Marc is saying is that he heard a "massive" improvement with the NOS tubes and then he heard an improvement going back to the stock tubes.  No more, no less.

[Guest scumbag]

I think we agree on that point but you put it more succinctly 

[PorkBun69s]

4 hours ago, RoHo said:

I have pasted below a post Grand Poo-bah Marc made regarding tube rolling on his Elektra pre-amp.

It is the absolutely bestest post I have ever, ever seen regarding tube rolling:

 

" 1. Awesome pre-amp. World class.

  2. I have extensively tube-rolled this pre with anything weird, wonderful and exotic I could  get  my hands on.

 

I made massive improvements. Then Arthur came around and asked me what I had done.

I put the originals back in. We both agreed, it was superior with the originally supplied tubes.

 

 Make of that what you will.  "

 

Poor @cazzesman ..

To save yourself some time, pain and coin...best to ask Lukas himself.  I'm sure he would have tested all viable tube options.  It is a very biased topic and what sounds good to you one day..will certainly be second best down the track and then the cycle repeats itself.  What I always found that at first the change will seem dramatic..but then listening over time the change seems subtle and you will want to try something else (part of the fun). 

 

Also, the best tube for the circuit does not need to be expensive and unobtainable rare versions of GEC, Mullards etc.  Sure you could pay and source these, but without truly assessing its qualities, they may get microphonic, over time.  

 

Best of all...have fun in the process.  Told you that you need tubes with your CX4's

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by katattack74