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2019 projector releases ?

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2 hours ago, Serentity said:

Unless I missed it, has the Aust price for the new Espon 9400 Projector come out?

no not yet.......not alot has come out yet about this projector other than 18gbs hdmi and 4K FI.

 

in case you haven't seen this yet......

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avmagazine.it%2Farticoli%2Fstampa%2F4K%2F1241%2Ffirst-look-epson-eh-tw9400_index.html

 

 

Edited by Michael391
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Prelim measurements by a calibrator who has an N5 in for testing shows the N5 at min throw seemed to be 20k wide open iris and the specced 40k closed iris. He thinks that number will be higher in long throw.

 

This is good news for that model, I was prepared for much lower wide open min throw than that honestly. Gives me hope the N7 will indeed be up or over 30k:1 wide open. I am getting 41k:1 in min throw on my X9500 right now. My old X7000 only gave me 22k in min throw wide open, so i was pretty fearful it could potentially be something like that on the N7. I feel pretty strongly this will not be the case now.

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Also, Ekki has updated his Sony reports with the serial measurements, that is, dozens of units.

 

http://cine4home.de/sony-vpl-vw270-vw570-exklusive-ergebnisse-zum-serienschnitt/

 

Good news is, the ANSI seems to be 420:1 across the range. Contrast is 13-18k:1 calibrated.

 

The bolded below are the relevant numbers if you care about calibration.

 

Quote

 

The factory specification of the manufacturer certifies the VW270 a maximum light output of 1500 lumens. In fact, the models even exceed the factory specification with a serial cut of 1550 lumens even slightly. However, this light output is achieved with a slight blue / green surplus, so that the calibration (reduction of red & green) is typically a loss of light. This amounts to about 16%, so that the serial cut is almost 1300 lumens. The brightest VW270 calibrated by us reached 1380 lumens, the darkest at 1220 lumens. This results in standard scattering for UHP lamps, as we already know from previous generations. If you operate the projector in the lamp-saving Eco mode, it will scratch at 970 lumens in a series cut just at the 1000 lumen limit.

 

Taking advantage of the native color temperature, the native contrast in the serial cut is at a minimum of 15.700: 1 (zoom maximally maxed out) and increases proportionally to 21.800: 1 when the optical zoom is reduced. The highest VW270 measured by us even broke the 23,000: 1 mark, but was below average in terms of brightness. Calibrates remaining 13,200: 1 to 18,500: 1. Thus, the VW270 will be at a similar level as a JVC DLA-N5 with open aperture.

 

Added to the native and dynamic contrast is the image contrast, that is the maximum difference between light and dark within a picture. With the help of a checkerboard test pattern it is made metrologically comparable between projectors. Here we were positively surprised: All of us tested standard devices have broken the 400: 1 mark, the best even reached 480: 1. The serial cut is 420: 1

 

However, as in my post above, if the N5 is 20k wide open mind throw, The 270 seems to be measuring 13k:1 wide open calibrated. Thats a 60% delta. So, not quite similar...

 

He mentions the lenses are quite consistent now, which is excellent.

 

He mentions that posterization is still present, but calls is 'high level whining' which is a really interesting remark from him. 

Quote


But the color resolution of the VW series is still not perfect: The fully digital color generation via pulse width modulation (fast clocking of the pixels) shows losses in some subtle nuances, which leads to "posterization"

 

Posterization.jpg

 

The better the starting material, the lower the effects are perceived. While this is undoubtedly "whining at a high level", we set the appropriate standards for the product class.

 

 

For the 570ES

 

Quote

The Sony VPL-VW570 is equipped with a stronger light source and offers according to the manufacturer with 1800 lumens gross more light reserves, as the VW270. These values are also proven in our series check, with a maximum of between 1720 lumens and 1870 lumens . As always, a part of the brightness is lost through the calibration, but it remains with perfect color representation still between 1550 and 1620 lumens , the light loss is exemplary low.

Quote

 

Dynamically, it increases the beammaster's dynamic range by a factor of three to four, so the realistic dynamic contrast ranges from 50,000: 1 to 90,000: 1 (at a native rate of 15,000: 1 to 26,000: 1) .

 

But the aperture can not only be used dynamically, but can also be statically adjusted in diameter in many steps. This gave us the opportunity to quantify the native contrast gain, which also comes into play during dynamic use:

 

Kontrast_Tabelle-1.jpg

 

The native contrast actually moves between 15,000: 1 and 26,300: 1 , depending on the zoom, the latter in dark scenes, because only here the iris closes. These are excellent results, which allow the VW570 despite the higher brightness, a better black level and more contrast than the VW270

 

 

Looking at his table, its clear to see the real native is actually between 15k and 19k iris dependant and for a set throw. He seems to quote 15 to 26,300, but hes quoting two different throw ratios in that range, so that's not a fair statement.

 

Min throw - 15,000 - 19,400

Middle Throw - 17,900 - 22,900

Max Throw - 21,200 - 26,300

 

An observation:

 

Seems like Sony's quoted lumens numbers are well done, that is to say, they are conservative and accurate.  I dont believe JVC numbers are accurate personally, I have never heard of, nor seen a JVC which measures 2000lm. I also noticed they dropped the N7 numbers to 1900 compared to last years 9 series, I wonder if its because they know they never even hit those numbers anyway. Time will tell if they can actually even hit 1900 max lumens. So, calibrated lumens wise, I am betting the N5, N7 and 570ES are going to be neck and neck. I dont actually believe there is going to be any quantifiable difference between the N5 and N7 in terms of peak light output even though the documentation shows it being 100lm difference.

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Some positives from the test at  http://cine4home.de/sony-vpl-vw270-vw570-exklusive-ergebnisse-zum-serienschnitt/

 

1.  Ekki is stating that the design of Sony panels gives them superiority over others in their ability to to eliminate motion artefacts and juddering.   moving objects and panning shots are much smoother on Sony as a result without any of the "soap opera effect" that is evident on other brands when you try this.

 

1920940576_ScreenShot2018-10-22at11_24_25am.png.6d861a9ed6fbfa13c6a81d0d521ccb5c.png

 

 

And this overview of SDR/HDR

 

1743342913_ScreenShot2018-10-22at11_36_06am.png.8c755c8dde3398670c987aad2a0abb50.png

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Sony's VW-570ES  supersedes  the  the previous $15.5K 550ES and will come in cheaper than the model it replaces.  It will compete with the JVC N7.  The previous 360ES has been dropped  and there will be no 370ES.

 

Sony has had auto calibration for some time - it isn't a full calibration  but is designed  to recalibrate colours to account for drift due to lamp fade. Ekki's comments

 

 

1081063093_ScreenShot2018-10-22at11_41_24am.png.cfe62731a9596bee9bc360d3028e894c.png

 

And a summation from Home cinema France regrading the ES 570

 

1447900342_ScreenShot2018-10-22at11_51_00am.png.2241dfd35ad90a9c989a3bdf029de279.png

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Sony's VW-570ES  supersedes  the  the previous $15.5K 550ES and will come in cheaper than the model it replaces.  It will compete with the JVC N7.  The previous 360ES has been dropped  and there will be no 370ES.
 
Sony has had auto calibration for some time - it isn't a full calibration  but is designed  to recalibrate colours to account for drift due to lamp fade. Ekki's comments
 
 
1081063093_ScreenShot2018-10-22at11_41_24am.png.cfe62731a9596bee9bc360d3028e894c.png
 
And a summation from Home cinema France regrading the ES 570
 
1447900342_ScreenShot2018-10-22at11_51_00am.png.2241dfd35ad90a9c989a3bdf029de279.png


Can’t wait to see some side by side comparisons. Finally basics are on an even playing field.

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1 hour ago, poppybob said:

 


Can’t wait to see some side by side comparisons. Finally basics are on an even playing field. emoji847.png

 

Exactly .., though I would like to see how n7 compares. 

 

Good to see Ekki at it ... even if always some disagreement / controversary with his measurements :)

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The video processing electronics  on the new Sony's started out in the 5000ES , and then the 760Es.   Because it involves  sophisticated electronic processing in combination with the designed-for -purpose 4K panels,   its difficult to compare looking at spec sheets.   But the natural smooth motion and superb upscaling to the 4k panels is a real eye-opener.  I noticed that in the French review,  the reviewer was blown away by the the 1080P bluray performance making it look like 4k discs.   Its interesting that he even preferred the bluray to a couple of discs that were upscaled from 2k to 4k.  Its pretty much how I see things too since Sony electronics do it better than anything else that will be plugged into them. 

 

At one point these features  were only available on the premium $90k projector,  and this translates into a decent upgrade for   270ES /570ES .   Ekki has indicated that the motion smoothness is achievable only with Sony panels due to their lower inertia .   Sony have made  a few upgrades to their 4k chips over the years and this issue was obviously one they had addressed.

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Looks like the n5/n9 having a showing in Toronto at one of the shows there. One other comment read is there is no way loss is 30% with the filter  jvc rep apparently quoted 16% which is pretty reasonable. I know on my x7000 it’s only s click or do difference on the iris filter engaged or not :)

 

 

 

 

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On ‎21‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:47 PM, Michael391 said:

no not yet.......not alot has come out yet about this projector other than 18gbs hdmi and 4K FI.

 

in case you haven't seen this yet......

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avmagazine.it%2Farticoli%2Fstampa%2F4K%2F1241%2Ffirst-look-epson-eh-tw9400_index.html

 

 

Thanks, good read.

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Such a lot of fuss about products that are not even released yet, it happens every year but I never could see any point in getting worked up about products that are not actually in stock, for sale AND fully tested. 

 

I'm going to give this years crop a miss, not improving in contrast - blacks is disappointing enough but going backwards is straight up unacceptable IMHO. The rest of the features and improvements are just fluff as far as I am concerned and won't improve my viewing.

 

Maybe the next generation, probably set for release about this time next year, will do what I need but I'm not holding my breath.

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17 hours ago, Tasso said:

I noticed that in the French review,  the reviewer was blown away by the the 1080P bluray performance making it look like 4k discs.   Its interesting that he even preferred the bluray to a couple of discs that were upscaled from 2k to 4k.

Nothing new there, and we don't need Sony processing to achieve it. A decent PC will do the job just as well if not better and works with any projector.

 

As for motion, fast pixel response time does NOT improve motion, if anything it increases the visibility of the problems caused by the low frame rate of movies, all else being equal.

OLED TV's have super fast pixel responce time but don't have "smoother" motion than slower LCD TV's because the sample and hold display system used by both totally dominates what the eye sees. The Sony and JVC projectors also use sample and hold so have the same native motion performance of OLED and LCD and are limited to about 300 lines or motion resolution.

 

Late model 3D capable Plasma TV's with fast pixels AND a refreshing display system (not sample and hold) have over three times the native motion resolution of sample and hold displays and because of that they suffer from terrible motion jitter-judder with 24 frame per second content (movies) unless motion interpolation is used. Every bloody frame is visible so if the camera operator and director don't do their job properly and avoid medium speed panning shots the low frame rate is horribly obvious, just as it is with good old film projected in a cinema via a film projector.

Film projectors have a blank or black period between frames so they are NOT sample and hold, so to the eye they look like a late model Plasma with very high motion resolution resulting in VERY obvious jitter-judder, its the film look.

 

Digital cinema projectors are sample and hold, just like domestic projectors, and no motion interpolation is used for display so jitter-judder is there for all to see. Its less noticeable than film projectors because of the motion blur created by sample and hold display.

 

So, movies are supposed to have motion jitter-judder, like it or not. If we artificially smooth motion via motion interpolations systems we create the "soap opera effect".

Soap operas where typically shot with 60 fps video cameras which provide super smooth motion with zero jitter-judder, so if a projector removes all the visible jitter-judder from movie playback it is by definition creating the "soap opera effect". People may like the super smooth look but it is what it is.

 

Whats "better"is very much up to the individual, some people like super smoothed, some want the original film look, or as close as a sample and hold display can achieve, and others want a happy medium between the two looks.

 

The Sony's are undoubtedly the best at creating the super smooth soap opera look, but with motion interpolation disabled Sony's and JVC's will look very much the same, if not identical with regards to motion.

I find JVC motion interpolation set to low provides a very nice compromise between soap opera smooth and the true film look. I've never had a problem with JVC motion, its a non issue IMHO.

 

 

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^ I agree completely...

 

I dont like motion interpolation, I also recognise proper 24p motion since I actually work in the film industry and looking at film is literally my day job for over 10 years.

 

When I looked at stacked Sony and JVC projectors, with all motion enhancements off, which is where I like them, they both offered identical amounts of judder to my eye.

 

Motion interpolation also completely ruins director intent and throws out the look which was created purposefully by the director and DOP in regards to the shutter speeds/angles used to shoot the film. An obvious example is Saving Private Ryan, but less obviously, I see it in every film, shutter speeds and judder is actually usually carefully considered by the film maker and purposefully shot in a way to represent that.  An absolute master of the technique is Ridley Scott. His films very, very clearly are highly considered in regards to exactly how much judder is in frame.

 

I also like the natural motion on my old Panasonic Plasma, one of the absolute worst shots for looking at motion judder with a panning shot is in Troy, there is a shot panning up the beach quite fast when all the ships arrived, and its horrific. But, its in the film negative, so it is what it is. I personally think the ball was dropped in regards to that shot, it should not have been as fast as it was, or, they should have used a slower shutter speed which would remove most of the judder.

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1 hour ago, Owen said:

A decent PC will do the job just as well if not better and works with any projector.

 

  But the vast majority of people don't want to buy a high power PC, learn how to use the software and have to use  it every time they want to use the projector.   So it isn't really an effective solution for them. I do get it for enthusiasts though.

3 hours ago, Owen said:

Such a lot of fuss about products that are not even released yet, it happens every year but I never could see any point in getting worked up about products that are not actually in stock, for sale AND fully tested. 

 

Yep indeed!

1 hour ago, Javs said:

Motion interpolation also completely ruins director intent and throws out the look which was created purposefully by the director and DOP in regards to the shutter speeds/angles used to shoot the film. An obvious example is Saving Private Ryan, but less obviously, I see it in every film, shutter speeds and judder is actually usually carefully considered by the film maker and purposefully shot in a way to represent that.  An absolute master of the technique is Ridley Scott. His films very, very clearly are highly considered in regards to exactly how much judder is in frame.

 

If you like motion judder you can have it. The vast majority of content is not designed that way.  Life is not designed that way,  and you don't see projector induced-judder like that in the real world.    It doesn't matter how you like to dress it up or turn it around, Sony's  motion handling and video processing  from the $90k ES5000  can produce stunning imagery with their native 4k panels.   But people can decide for themselves soon enough I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Tasso said:

The vast majority of content is not designed that way

Actually 99.99999% of movies are.

Projectors don't induce judder-jitter mate, movies are shot that way and show that way in cinemas. 24fps motion is what it is and Hollywood has show no interest in moving to a higher frame rate, until they do judder-jitter IS in the content.

When you turn all motion processing off you get the motion you would in a commercial cinema running a digital projector.

 

Some people like movies to look like soap operas and some don't. I'm in the middle and am perfectly happy with just a little film look. I certainly don't see any motion issues I want to fix.

 

Sport and other live action content that cant be scripted is shot at 50 or 60 fps. No motion interpolation required for that content as its super smooth to begin with.

 

The most troublesome content is from streaming services that insist on converting movies and other  24fps (actually 23.97fps) content to 60FPS, thats an unmitigated stuff up as it creates terrible judder that typically cant be fixed.

Edited by Owen

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45 minutes ago, Tasso said:

  But the vast majority of people don't want to buy a high power PC, learn how to use the software and have to use  it every time they want to use the projector.   So it isn't really an effective solution for them.

That may often be the case. I've been doing it for almost 20 years so its a no brainer for me. 😉

 

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10 minutes ago, mazman1503559902 said:

Agree about judder, id rather not have it, sorry. 

When humans move, they dont judder...

The only time I ever see judder with MI set to low is if the camera operator or director stuffed up, and thats not often. In most movies its never, so its a non issue IMHO. Scrolling text is perfectly smooth.

 

I have much more important concerns like significantly improving contrast, thats the only aspect of performance I find lacking at the moment and there is no solution in sight.

Edited by Owen

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51 minutes ago, mazman1503559902 said:

Agree about judder, id rather not have it, sorry. 

When humans move, they dont judder...

You must have loved Billy Lynns Long Half time Walk and the Hobbit movies shot at higher frame rates.

 

I cant watch either of them at all in native frame rates. 24p is the only way I can view movies.

 

Peoples opinions are their own of course, and to be respected so I am not saying anybody is wrong. However I am not going to shoot down a display technology because it can show exactly every frame which is in the source.

 

FI is mostly fake frames, you are watching more interpolated frames than you are real frames. I dont get it.

 

You should see Mastering Monitors, people would be laughed out of the room if they asked to see movies with FI during mastering process. If the film makers intend you to experience the content differently, they will shoot it differently.

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1 hour ago, Tasso said:

If you like motion judder you can have it. The vast majority of content is not designed that way.  Life is not designed that way,  and you don't see projector induced-judder like that in the real world.    It doesn't matter how you like to dress it up or turn it around, Sony's  motion handling and video processing  from the $90k ES5000  can produce stunning imagery with their native 4k panels.   But people can decide for themselves soon enough I guess.

I want motion exactly as it was shot. So, yes I will take it.

 

Sony's Extreme chips (even better ones actually) are in their $4000 TV's too, I think you are jumping too neck deep into the marketing material...

 

Here you go... Nice reading. I side with Christopher Nolan, Paul Thomas Anderson, James Gunn, Christopher Mcquarrie, Tom Cruise, Matt Reeves, Edgar Wright..

 

https://www.slashfilm.com/war-on-motion-smoothing/

 

https://www.change.org/p/hdtv-manufacturers-please-stop-making-smooth-motion-the-default-setting-on-all-hdtvs

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