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2019 - 2020 projector releases ?


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30 minutes ago, Tasso said:

Someone has to keep the JVC fanboys on their toes!   I listened to the same hype when I bought JVC and  regretted it. I would have appreciated an alternate point of view at the time.

So you're not happy with your JVC? Anything in particular? :o

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10 hours ago, Tasso said:

You shouldn’t keep dismissing new electronics in Sony as not being  significant.   They have been ahead of JVC in terms of motion smoothness in the past and with the new models they move further ahead and bring their improved scaling and upconversion which JVC doesn’t seem to have an answer for. JVC’s big news is doing what Sony did years ago. 

 

 Sony have not stood still . There was one and only one thing JVC had as an advantage and that was the black levels with E-Shift.   It won’t be the case anymore.  

 

 

On the contrary, from around mid this year when I was looking around at projectors the VW550ES was top of the list.

 

I knew when the VW550ES was getting heavily discounted at retail that a model refresh was in the works and found out that the VW570ES was announced at IFA in late August/early September, so was looking at getting a VW570ES, but thought I'd have a quick reality check and found out that JVC had a range of new native 4K projectors. After some research decided that (on paper) the N7 seemed to have a number of features over the VW570ES that had some value to me (higher native and dynamic contrast, tone mapping, installation modes). Plus it appeared there would be a not inconsequential price differential when both models land in Australia (around an expected $12K for the JVC to an estimated $15-16K - based on the VW550ES rrp - for the Sony).

 

From my reading, and briefly auditioning a Sony (VW360ES) and JVC (X7900) projector, I agree that the Sony appears to have better upscaling of 1080p content with the Digital Reality Creation system. I couldn't see much difference in motion interpolation (my home theatre dealer seems to think JVC do better motion interpolation than Sony, but I suppose it's a matter of opinion), but the caveat here is that my audition of each was brief. To my eyes the JVC completely spanked the Sony's contrast ratio, but in isolation from each other I don't think it would be something to worry too much about.

 

Remember the new JVC 4K native projectors have an updated Clear Motion Drive motion interpolation system compared to the e-shift models which may compete better with the Sony system, and there is some speculation the upscaling system may be the same as that used in the Z1, which is reportedly excellent. Again this is all speculation.

 

Then there are the scary pages of forum posts on the 'net regarding SXRD panel degradation. It might or might not be true, but I'm not sure I want to go there.

 

The only way I'll reconsider is if the N7 and VW570ES prices are pretty similar...  If they are I might hang off and wait for some reviews. Either way if I get the N7 or VW570ES I'll be getting a cracking projector ?

Edited by Davo1972
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47 minutes ago, Davo1972 said:

Either way if I get the N7 or VW570ES I'll be getting a cracking projector ?

I'm going for my first "proper" projector. Yes, I had a rather simple and basic Toshiba TLP X2000 that I bought over a decade ago for occasional big screen viewing when we could be bothered to reconfigure a room for a day, but never had the luxury of a dedicated room or the budget available before. Earlier this year, it seemed so easy, I was definitely going to get the Sony 760ES. I've seen demos of it, and I loved it and still do. But then I read all about the new JVCs and not sure whether those would be better. Then I read the scare stories of the Sonys and get worried about buying a Sony. Then I read about the not so good upscaling or lamp flickering or something else on the JVC and get worried about that. And then I start wondering if it would be easier not to bother at all... And then I remember I went through the same thing with the TV as well. Ultimately I'll make a choice and it'll be a cracking projector whichever way I go and I'll enjoy it for a good number of years I hope.

 

I'll just make sure to purchase it on my Platinum visa card to get the extra 1 or 2 years warranty ;) 

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11 hours ago, Tasso said:

 

N5-N9 do not have Z1 electronics .  N9 was found  wanting in terms of up conversion and scaling at CES.  The lamp based models are on their own. This is not merely a firmware issue , heavy hitting processing requires the chipsets and processing boards to go with it.  

 

 

 

Everything in your post is a guess. Unless you want to try and 'seal' a coffin based on a trade show with prototype units? You need to wait and see. I see you throwing all the shade at JVC based on your experience with one single unit you bought and didnt like. Ive had four of them in my room, 3 at the same time, they all differ in sample variance, you could have had a bad one.

 

Want me to share the image of the 985ES with you that it threw at IFA?? It was SO BAD that ArrowAV wouldnt even post it. Did you notice that? Completely and utterly failed at displaying the Quick Brown Fox test pattern.

 

In fact, I am not even going to share it because that would just be unfair on Sony's $35k Laser Projector. Since the final version will likely be better and not malfunctioning.. No wonder they reserved it for private demo only at IFA.

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16 hours ago, Mr Diamond said:

So you're not happy with your JVC? Anything in particular? :o

Don't get me wrong,  I thought the JVC was very good but coming from the Sharp XVZ-21000 - a 10 year old design, I  thought  JVC still had some work to do in some areas.  I loved the black levels, light output and colour  but noticed that video with motion and panning shots had a noticeable jerkiness about them in comparison to what I was used to.  Adjustments didn't really address the issue fundamentally.   E-shift  caused video noise which is relatively slight but hard to un-notice once recognised.    

To address the issues the only PJ's I thought I could consider at the time to do better were the JVC Z1 and Sony 760ES - The 760ES won out due to cost reasons. The 760Es had inherited  some of the electronics from the 5000 and had completely different video processing hardware and software to the lamp based models ( despite retaining the same process names like "Reality Creation etc)   Its motion handling is superb as is its up conversion and scaling - better in fact than any source gear including Oppo 203.  For 2k material and native 4k panels,  this translates to stunning 2k ( an 4k of course) images - so much so I really think the PJ does it better  than some of the upscaled  UHD discs I have seen.  

 

The relevance of this to the new 2019 projectors is that Sony  have  incorporated similar electronic upgrades to their 2019  lamp based models, which means that they feature completely new video processing engines  which is  quite a significant upgrade. Not only for the reasons I have previously mentioned but for  better delineation of subject matter in dark scenes as well.   JVC haven't to my knowledge said that they have done anything similar and early reports of 2K up conversion were not favourable.  However, given that nothing definitive can be concluded from the trade shows,  it remains to be seen whether JVC have incorporated improved motion handling and scaling capabilities into its new projectors which can match Sony's.   I would expect the NX9 to have something special considering the price  and its rank in the line-up,  but if I was going to select a new  lamp based projector  in the near future, I would be closely examining each first hand .  

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12 hours ago, Davo1972 said:

Remember the new JVC 4K native projectors have an updated Clear Motion Drive motion interpolation system compared to the e-shift models which may compete better with the Sony system, and there is some speculation the upscaling system may be the same as that used in the Z1, which is reportedly excellent. Again this is all speculation.

It would be great if  it happens that way

 

12 hours ago, Davo1972 said:

Then there are the scary pages of forum posts on the 'net regarding SXRD panel degradation. It might or might not be true, but I'm not sure I want to go there.

 

Sony  changed the  design of their panels some time ago and even the 4k panels have  had a re-design since they were released.  They retained the name SXRD  which is enough for mis-information to be spread .   

Edited by Tasso
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4 hours ago, Tasso said:
  13 hours ago, Davo1972 said:

Then there are the scary pages of forum posts on the 'net regarding SXRD panel degradation. It might or might not be true, but I'm not sure I want to go there.

 

Sony  changed the  design of their panels some time ago and even the 4k panels have  had a re-design since they were released.  They retained the name SXRD  which is enough for mis-information to be spread .   

Edited 1 hour ago by Tasso

 

I am have stopped calibrating Sony SXRD projectors. The contrast on these products fades far too quickly.

Contrast Sony.jpg

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2 hours ago, wooferocau said:

I am have stopped calibrating Sony SXRD projectors. The contrast on these products fades far too quickly.

 

 

This bloke has been banging on about this for years  - I investigated all this before taking the plunge.     Sony did have some issues in the past , it goes with the territory of being a pioneer in the field. 

 One reason I didn't get into LCD until recently was the potential  issue of LCD panel fade.   I used to be worried about panel fade from  Sony (and JVC for that matter)  but am more than satisfied  with the reliability of the current batch of reflective panels.   

 

This is not an issue that has been recognised as being  applicable  by mainstream independent   industry specialists.    But in a Sony vs JVC debate, it will always be dragged up- too bad that it has nothing to do with 2019 projectors. 

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I note mike Garett has queried scoc on avs re his comparisons

 

And scoc has clarified

“And no I was not comparing on same screen etc. But I had my X7000 for 3 years so know what’s capable of.”

 

so just going on memory really rather than any comparison as such. and as mike Garett suggested different screens and setups are going to impact in itself and worth keeping in mind for context. that both need to be brightness matched on same screen to really compare. Still important the impressions he posted but have to consider no actual x7000 was present 

 

ive also queried him as goes on about dynamic iris on the n5 which I thought Javs confirmed is something the n5 doesn’t have ! Correction n5 just doesn’t have dual iris 7&9 series do

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7 minutes ago, :) al said:

I note mike Garett has queried scoc on avs re his comparisons

 

And scoc has clarified

“And no I was not comparing on same screen etc. But I had my X7000 for 3 years so know what’s capable of.”

 

so just going on memory really rather than any comparison as such. and as mike Garett suggested different screens and setups are going to impact in itself and worth keeping in mind for context. that both need to be brightness matched on same screen to really compare. Still important the impressions he posted but have to consider no actual x7000 was present 

 

ive also queried Jim as goes on about dynamic iris on the n5 which I thought Javs confirmed is something the n5 doesn’t have !

No, I never said that. I said the N5 does not have a dual iris. Which I have just clarified on AVS.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Tasso said:

This is not an issue that has been recognised as being  applicable  by mainstream independent   industry specialists.    But in a Sony vs JVC debate, it will always be dragged up- too bad that it has nothing to do with 2019 projectors. 

You mean... by a guy who gets paid to calibrate literally hundreds of displays a year?... We shouldn't listen to those guys, right?

 

Personally right now I agree that degradation is probably not much of an issue. But with no published contrast specs, good luck getting Sony to do something about it becuase you have no official 'baseline' to throw at them in order to say its out of spec.

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12 minutes ago, Javs said:

No, I never said that. I said the N5 does not have a dual iris. Which I have just clarified on AVS.

 

 

No problem sorry more confused by the guy posting and in my haste. Thanks for clarifying 

 

understand now 5 series as before  just doesn’t have the dual iris setups of 7& 9 series which is what gives them contrast gains. Yep I would struggle to give up dual iris setup on my x7000

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Well the biggest problem I've had with these native 4K JVC projectors so far is still no official Australian price!!! Hurry up JVC Australia!!!  Jeez...

 

My dealer has had a number of inquiries about them now. Thankfully I'm first on the list ? 

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1 hour ago, Javs said:

You mean... by a guy who gets paid to calibrate literally hundreds of displays a year?... We shouldn't listen to those guys, right?

 

Those guys?   They are not in agreement with him.  I get that this is social media and anyone can do a Google search and dump unsubstantiated quotes in threads to pass them off as facts or to stir things up.  But I hope we can do better.   Literally all projector manufacturers have had problems with units breaking down, DOA etc and if anyone is genuine about assessing the longevity of  the new projectors,   all problems encountered with all brands will need to be analysed.

 

As far as calibrators go,  they  have done a course for a few days on how to adjust displays - no secondary or tertiary qualifications required, neither is any knowledge of electronic engineering.  I respect the  work that they do  but when choosing a car to buy  for example,  I do not rely on what the  lube attendant or car salesman  say which is the best one.  I apply the same principle to projectors.   

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36 minutes ago, Davo1972 said:

Well the biggest problem I've had with these native 4K JVC projectors so far is still no official Australian price!!! Hurry up JVC Australia!!!  Jeez...

 

My dealer has had a number of inquiries about them now. Thankfully I'm first on the list ? 

I agree. Considering they are ‘meant’ to hit the shelves in 3-4 weeks no official release date or price in Aus. Not to mention they still have the X000 series on their website.

 

  Javs or oztheatre have any update from their reps?

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15 minutes ago, Tasso said:

As far as calibrators go,  they  have done a course for a few days on how to adjust displays - no secondary or tertiary qualifications required, neither is any knowledge of electronic engineering.  I respect the  work that they do  but when choosing a car to buy  for example,  I do not rely on what the  lube attendant or car salesman  say which is the best one.  I apply the same principle to projectors.   

Shrug.

 

This is Jeff Meier.

 

THX Level II Engineer and ISF Certified. SMPTE...

 

Seems to be a highly recognised expert in the field. Even personally calibrated AVS Craig Peers projector. He also does home theatre engineering, and also hold Audio calibration certifications.

 

You are trying seriously hard to discredit any grievances whatsoever associated with the brand Sony. Its verbatim the issue from Sony fanboys over on the other forum, cannot take a single dust particle of criticism. I could talk all day about things that annoy me about JVC, I have done so and dont shy away from it. Mention one thing here, and you seem jump through hoops to discredit the info.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, T800 said:

Not to mention they still have the X000 series on their website.

Unless I've missed it, I've never even seen the Z1 on their Australian website and that's been on sale all the time I've been looking at projectors this year. 

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2 hours ago, T800 said:

I agree. Considering they are ‘meant’ to hit the shelves in 3-4 weeks no official release date or price in Aus. Not to mention they still have the X000 series on their website.

 

  Javs or oztheatre have any update from their reps?

jvc are chronic locally to not update. I remember when the 7500 series came out, and was on one of the resellers websites. I rang jvc and the guy there flat out refused to acknowledge the new model .... am sure a warehouse of old models in stock was holding him back :D 

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3 hours ago, T800 said:

I agree. Considering they are ‘meant’ to hit the shelves in 3-4 weeks no official release date or price in Aus. Not to mention they still have the X000 series on their website.

 

  Javs or oztheatre have any update from their reps?

Sent an email again, and called... Waiting on word back...

 

We all wait :)

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2 hours ago, Javs said:

Shrug.

 

This is Jeff Meier.

 

THX Level II Engineer and ISF Certified. SMPTE...

 

Big deal - he  was taught how to adjust the controls and use  software for a very specific purpose.    He is not an electronics expert and  he is on the fringe as far as his position goes.    This is from a country  who's President uses social media every day to  draw attention to himself  without regard for the content.  

 

2 hours ago, Javs said:

You are trying seriously hard to discredit any grievances whatsoever associated with the brand Sony. Its verbatim the issue from Sony fanboys over on the other forum, cannot take a single dust particle of criticism. I could talk all day about things that annoy me about JVC, I have done so and dont shy away from it. Mention one thing here, and you seem jump through hoops to discredit the info.

This is not just a "single dust particle of criticism" .    I have seen too many  attempted take downs of high profile manufacturers on USA forums where the actual facts were substantially different to what was presented.  I have seen a major speaker manufacturer being portrayed as a having produced faulty goods ( Costing $200k)  and refusing to honour the warranty for a  hapless owner.  After many months of community outrage It transpired that the owner had physically damaged the speakers after delivery and was seeking a new pair for no cost. His reason for going public was to apply pressure.    This is public shaming USA style. I don't know exactly what the issues were with  a couple of projectors that Sony fixed for their customers, but Sony has obviously denied there is a generic issue  and no-one who has the actual qualifications  to know about these things  has disagreed with them.  You know as well as i do that any hint of a generic problem in the USA will spark a lawsuit - most likely class action.  This hasn't happened but there is always social media to vent their spleen.

 

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2 hours ago, mazman1503559902 said:

If jvc cant even update theyre website with new models, are they just as bad with customer service! 

 

Who works for them, 10yo's?

customer service and after sales thank fully by australian consumer law is very much in the hands of the retailer you purchase from. VERY important the retailer you purchase from. And I say this regardless of what brand projector you buy. projectors are delicate things prone to failure particularly in initial weeks/months and quite often can also be DOA or discovered to be DOA in some fashion. hope and pray who every you buy from is going to bend over back wards to come to your aid. As a tip check product review for atleast one retailer I would stay the heck away from ! and definitely dont buy off ebay and web retailers and such with no repute or track record of good after sales and service.

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Unfortunately in WA, JVC if there is an issue you have to take it to a repair agent. No one stocks them over here anymore and they deal directly with JVC so if their is any issues you have to take it straight to a repair agent unless you can wait for the item to be shipped back to eastern states and have another shipped back. But thats up to who you bought it from as well,  how far will they go with their responsibility ( Most now say contact JVC as it was a special order for you and they want to wash their hands off it in WA  ). All i get from them of here ( Retail stores ) JVC was too hard to deal with especially with returns and there was a great number of them that had issues.

Ive had an X9 that was riddled with issues and that was a nightmare to deal with ( I swore I never pay that much for a projector again ) but I had a good X35 ( Purchased in WA when they were dealing with them ) and a Damn good X5900be ( Purchased from Digital Cinema ). I had to ring JVC to make sure they were a dealer recognised by JVC before I bought from them.

 

Edited by franin
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4 hours ago, franin said:

Most now say contact JVC as it was a special order for you and they want to wash their hands off it in WA  )

That is specifically illegal and you would just need to remind them of your consumer rights and that you don’t need to deal with the anyone else but company bought from.

 

you are in a bind that there if all of WA is like that. The thing is to push back and if everyone does they soon get the message. Even one complaint in writing to accc via their web portal would have the shonks sorted I suspect.

 

the wash hands off is not unusual in “eastern states” either why I suggest check product review because one company often mentioned as dealt with are one that also try to pull this on people. These these new 2019 jvcs are a first of a new breed and projectors as I mentioned can and will fail regardless of brand so doesnt matter what you buy you will possibly need some after sales at some point. Shonks should not get your business, buy from retailers who provide after sales and are on your side folks there are enough of them out there so the shonks don’t deserve your money.

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1 hour ago, :) al said:

That is specifically illegal and you would just need to remind them of your consumer rights and that you don’t need to deal with the anyone else but company bought from.

 

you are in a bind that there if all of WA is like that. The thing is to push back and if everyone does they soon get the message. Even one complaint in writing to accc via their web portal would have the shonks sorted I suspect.

 

the wash hands off is not unusual in “eastern states” either why I suggest check product review because one company often mentioned as dealt with are one that also try to pull this on people. These these new 2019 jvcs are a first of a new breed and projectors as I mentioned can and will fail regardless of brand so doesnt matter what you buy you will possibly need some after sales at some point. Shonks should not get your business, buy from retailers who provide after sales and are on your side folks there are enough of them out there so the shonks don’t deserve your money.

Totally agree on the after sales support. The place you buy from should be able to handle all communications on your behalf if there are major problems, for cases where the projector is completely DOA its highly likely that the procedure would be a simple and pretty painless swap out situation. Ive come across it before.

 

Unfortunately though, if its something like you are not happy with your convergence, or your lens, or there is some kind of quirk to the unit, then JVC actually will force the retailer, or distrubutor, or whoever it is, to send the unit to a service center for assessment before issuing a replacement.

 

JVC does have a spec in regards to convergence and its two full pixel clicks of alignment. The lens is very difficult because its a highly subjective thing (ask me how I know) Now if the issue is something like that, you are going to find it to be a little bit of a process you will unfortunately need to work through with your retailer to solve the problems. Unless you buy from a place like JB Hifi or Harvey Norman where they have a ton of actual floor stock, then swapping out high end projectors where they are usually custom ordered on a per-order basis for issues that do not constitute DOA sitations becomes a little more involved realistically. You will find that process is just how it is, and throwing the ACCC book at them is not always the best course of action. Not everybody is out to rip off customers or wash hands of them.

 

If you think shops carry floor stock of projectors of this calibre you will find its just not really the case, so instant swapping a unit like these is going to be very difficult especially when the model is brand new, you might be looking at some time before a replacement can be secured and sent out, sometimes it may need to be part of the next incomming batch. Seen this before too.

 

You will see that this appears to be no different around most parts of the world too, you hear of this with AVS also, a customer isnt happy with the 1 click of convergence required despite the convergence adjustment tool, but there is a process that needs to be followed there...

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