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2019 - 2020 projector releases ?

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4 hours ago, Tasso said:

A high quality lens with 4K  panels will create an awesome picture and I'm wondering how noticeable the difference between the 65mm and the top spec 100 mm will be  under normal viewing conditions ( not just test patterns viewed  close to the screen).

After sharpness correction my bet is there will be stuff all difference in actual movie viewing performance.

Remember 4K video has nothing resolvable at the pixel level and sharp edges on pixels represent spatial frequencies many, many times higher than anything 4K video can hope to contain.

Sharp pixel edges are a form of distortion that is not supposed to be in the final on screen image, pixels should have soft edges and blend together seamlessly for the highest quality image.

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4 minutes ago, WasM said:

Maybe wrong topic to post this question but is there currently a PC setup that can give full Ultra Bluray 4K HDR 4:4:4 with Atmos/DTS:X?

Yes, PC's output 4:4:4 or RGB by default, however ALL video is 4:2:0 so has to have colour upscaled to 4:4:4. This has to occur somewhere in the replay chain, either in the video player - PC or in the display.

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31 minutes ago, Owen said:

Its not the "upscaling" because upscaling is very easy to do well and costs stuff all. What Sony does definitely, and quite well overall, is sharpening.

Other video sources include PC's that can actually provide a better result than Sony's sharpening IMHO, but PC's are not for everyone as they are not plug and play for the in experienced.

 

You cant compare the processing Sony does with the  5000ES,  760Es and now  on the  570Es  with projectors of yesteryear.  The output of the Oppo 203 playing a 2k bluray upscaled to 4k has a very high level of sharpness but compared to the Sony ( doing the upscaling)  the Oppo is full of digital artefacts and noise.    Sony doesn't sharpen it any more than Oppo does, it just  upscales and reproduces it so much better and cleaner. 

 

Using a PC to fix what the projector should get right  in the first instance is a band-aid measure IMO.    

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5 minutes ago, Tasso said:

 The output of the Oppo 203 playing a 2k bluray upscaled to 4k has a very high level of sharpness but compared to the Sony ( doing the upscaling)  the Oppo is full of digital artefacts and noise.

Thats says a lot. Up scaling and sharpening has been a hobby of mine for 15 years and I have NEVER seen upscaling produce "artefacts and noise", however poor quality or too much sharpening most definitely does result in very visible artefacts and noise.

So I say again, its not an upscaling issue its a sharpening issue plain and simple. Crank up Sony's "Reality Creation" sharpening too high and the results are not pretty.

 

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20 minutes ago, Tasso said:

Using a PC to fix what the projector should get right  in the first instance is a band-aid measure IMO.    

No projector "gets it right" so other arrangements must be made for best image quality.

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1 hour ago, Owen said:

So I say again, its not an upscaling issue its a sharpening issue plain and simple. Crank up Sony's "Reality Creation" sharpening too high and the results are not pretty

 

You have no experience whatsoever with the latest Sony projectors in relation to this issue and are clearly out of date with your knowledge of what the PJ's are capable of.  Guessing from the sidelines is not helpful to anyone.

 

59 minutes ago, Owen said:

No projector "gets it right" so other arrangements must be made for best image quality.

 

As far as "getting it right " goes for 2K material  upscaled to be displayed on native 4K  projector, Sony does get it right with its latest projectors.  By this I mean I haven't seen any add-on device do it better.  

 

Edited by Tasso

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3 hours ago, Owen said:

Thats says a lot. Up scaling and sharpening has been a hobby of mine for 15 years and I have NEVER seen upscaling produce "artefacts and noise", however poor quality or too much sharpening most definitely does result in very visible artefacts and noise.

So I say again, its not an upscaling issue its a sharpening issue plain and simple. Crank up Sony's "Reality Creation" sharpening too high and the results are not pretty.

 

Yes same for those darbee units, too much it looks ridiculous, tame it down it works well.

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10 hours ago, oztheatre said:

Yes same for those darbee units, too much it looks ridiculous, tame it down it works well.

 

The difference between the Sony PJ ability to display a 2k source on native 4K projectors vs using source units such as Oppo doing 2k to 4K conversion  goes way beyond  using sharpening controls.   I tried everything to get Oppo and other units to match what Sony could do because it is a lot easier leaving everything on auto resolution rather than having to manually select output resolution for 2K sources. At least Oppo has a “source direct” option but Apple TV, Roku and Dune do not.

 

The Oppo 203 sharpening control is at its minimum setting and there is no ability to reduce it further. 

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22 hours ago, Tasso said:

You have no experience whatsoever with the latest Sony projectors in relation to this issue and are clearly out of date with your knowledge of what the PJ's are capable of.  Guessing from the sidelines is not helpful to anyone.

You missed my point entirely mate, see below.

 

23 hours ago, Tasso said:

The output of the Oppo 203 playing a 2k bluray upscaled to 4k has a very high level of sharpness but compared to the Sony ( doing the upscaling)  the Oppo is full of digital artefacts and noise.    Sony doesn't sharpen it any more than Oppo does, it just  upscales and reproduces it so much better and cleaner. 

I was referring to the above where you say that the Sony does a better job than the Oppo which creates  "artefacts and noise" and you attributed this to better upscaling. You are making an assumption there, I can assure you that upscaling DOES NOT create artefacts and noise, even the upscaling in cheap no name TV's doesn't do that. Inappropriate or excessive sharpening on the other hand with create artefacts and noise every bloody time, with or without up scaling. Sony's "Reality Creation" and every other sharpening system does it as well if turned up too high.

 

Sharpening simply boosts MTF and this can be done over a wide range of spatial frequencies. Typical sharpening systems concentrate on boosting high spatial frequencies, like the treble control in audio, which emphasises compression artefacts and amplifies image noise so its very important not to push high frequency boost too high. Low spatial frequency boost improves image "pop" and apparent contrast so is very useful and mid frequency boost increases image sharpness and detail with little negative effect on artefacts or noise. 

 

There are many sharpening systems, some good and some not so good, but whatever system is used they all have the above characteristics and limitations. The system used in the Oppo is over boosting high frequencies if the result is "artefacts and noise" and upscaling has stuff all to do with it unless there is something seriously wrong.

 

I see many people attribute "better upscaling" for what they see on this display or that, but its clear they don't understand how upscaling works and how subtle the differences are between top quality upscaling and the ordinary.  

If an image looks sharper its because it has been sharpened more. A good upscaling system has no effect on sharpness, none, the upscaled image should look exactly like the un scaled image just with more pixels.

 

The best possible performance is typically obtained using a variety of sharpening systems and tools not just one because different systems have their strong and week points in different areas, its all about finding the most suitable combination for your display and personal taste. Simply using what comes in the projector has inevitable limitations because it doesn't provide the required control.

Unfortunately most people are not going to know what the picture needs and how to get it so there is definitely a case for Sonys "Reality Creation" which is quite effective and simple to configure. Its not the be all and end all, no single system is, but for the average consumer it has a lot of merit IMHO.

Its yet to be seen if the new JVC's have an improved sharpening system, but its needed if its to be used on its own IMHO.

 

I apply sharping with 3 different systems at once, two are in the PC and one is in the projector. Its the net effect of all together in the right balance that gives me the desire result.

 

9 hours ago, Tasso said:

The Oppo 203 sharpening control is at its minimum setting and there is no ability to reduce it further. 

That DOES NOT mean there is no sharpening going on, extra video noise is a dead give away that there is.

Sony projectors also apply sharpening even when the user sharpness settings are turned off, its a good trick to fool the uneducated consumer into believing there is more native sharpness than there really is.

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1 hour ago, Owen said:

You missed my point entirely mate, see below.

 

I was referring to the above where you say that the Sony does a better job than the Oppo which creates  "artefacts and noise" and you attributed this to better upscaling. You are making an assumption there, I can assure you that upscaling DOES NOT create artefacts and noise, even the upscaling in cheap no name TV's doesn't do that. Inappropriate or excessive sharpening on the other hand with create artefacts and noise every bloody time, with or without up scaling. Sony's "Reality Creation" and every other sharpening system does it as well if turned up too high.

 

Sharpening simply boosts MTF and this can be done over a wide range of spatial frequencies. Typical sharpening systems concentrate on boosting high spatial frequencies, like the treble control in audio, which emphasises compression artefacts and amplifies image noise so its very important not to push high frequency boost too high. Low spatial frequency boost improves image "pop" and apparent contrast so is very useful and mid frequency boost increases image sharpness and detail with little negative effect on artefacts or noise. 

 

There are many sharpening systems, some good and some not so good, but whatever system is used they all have the above characteristics and limitations. The system used in the Oppo is over boosting high frequencies if the result is "artefacts and noise" and upscaling has stuff all to do with it unless there is something seriously wrong.

 

I see many people attribute "better upscaling" for what they see on this display or that, but its clear they don't understand how upscaling works and how subtle the differences are between top quality upscaling and the ordinary.  

If an image looks sharper its because it has been sharpened more. A good upscaling system has no effect on sharpness, none, the upscaled image should look exactly like the un scaled image just with more pixels.

 

The best possible performance is typically obtained using a variety of sharpening systems and tools not just one because different systems have their strong and week points in different areas, its all about finding the most suitable combination for your display and personal taste. Simply using what comes in the projector has inevitable limitations because it doesn't provide the required control.

Unfortunately most people are not going to know what the picture needs and how to get it so there is definitely a case for Sonys "Reality Creation" which is quite effective and simple to configure. Its not the be all and end all, no single system is, but for the average consumer it has a lot of merit IMHO.

Its yet to be seen if the new JVC's have an improved sharpening system, but its needed if its to be used on its own IMHO.

 

I apply sharping with 3 different systems at once, two are in the PC and one is in the projector. Its the net effect of all together in the right balance that gives me the desire result.

 

That DOES NOT mean there is no sharpening going on, extra video noise is a dead give away that there is.

Sony projectors also apply sharpening even when the user sharpness settings are turned off, its a good trick to fool the uneducated consumer into believing there is more native sharpness than there really is.

 

 Firstly  the point whether there is poor sharpening or scaling going on  is somewhat moot.  In the context of this discussion on forums  around the world , the  term "upscaling"  is an all inclusive term describing the video process that the projector uses  of converting the 1080p input  signal to be fed to the native 4K panels.   The fact that the process involves a number of steps is not really relevant to most people who just want to know how each item of equipment performs on its own .  99.9999% of users do not use PC's and MAD VR  to correct the  projectors inability to do it better so the projector performance in this regard is relevant , even if it isn't a point in favour of JVC.   

 

You also seem to be under the misapprehension that JVC  do no sharpening of the image because  you cant see  it on the user menus, like RC.   It is simply not possible for the projector to take the video signal at the input and pass it without any form of processing whatsoever  to the display chips .  There is indeed processing going on and no one can rule out that a degree of sharpening is being applied.   By your own statement,  extra video noise is a dead giveaway that sharpening is being applied.   The complaint made about the new JVC projectors was that there was a lot of extra video noise visible when the projector was fed 1080p material - evidence that JVC is applying too much sharpening?

 

In the case of the OPPO, the sharpening controls are turned down to the lowest setting but there is still too many artefacts and noise. This could be evidence of too much sharpening built -in ( like JVC)  but the Sony produces equally sharp images without video noise and artefacts from the same 1080p material.  

Edited by Tasso

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/Derailed.

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Thought we were talking about all the new stuff........?

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Back on track   - Does anybody know why JVC  seems to be one of the only big name manufacturers without  laser projectors in its "affordable" home theatre range?    They do use laser in their flagship projector so clearly consider it to be the best light source.   I thought perhaps from a cost perspective they left it out of the NX7 but then they included 8k E-shft and the 100mm lens over the improved quality standard lens.   I guess they added the top spec lens to better resolve upscaled 8K images  and perhaps we might see a new laser model next  year.  

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18 minutes ago, Tasso said:

Back on track   - Does anybody know why JVC  seems to be one of the only big name manufacturers without  laser projectors in its "affordable" home theatre range?    They do use laser in their flagship projector so clearly consider it to be the best light source.   I thought perhaps from a cost perspective they left it out of the NX7 but then they included 8k E-shft and the 100mm lens over the improved quality standard lens.   I guess they added the top spec lens to better resolve upscaled 8K images  and perhaps we might see a new laser model next  year.  

My guess is to differentiate between the models in a clear way. 

4k>4k with double the contrast > 8k ish > lazzzor

 

Cant have all the models (or even just the 9) having the top light engine. Maybe next gen a few more models will go laser

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58 minutes ago, Tasso said:

Back on track   - Does anybody know why JVC  seems to be one of the only big name manufacturers without  laser projectors in its "affordable" home theatre range?    They do use laser in their flagship projector so clearly consider it to be the best light source.   I thought perhaps from a cost perspective they left it out of the NX7 but then they included 8k E-shft and the 100mm lens over the improved quality standard lens.   I guess they added the top spec lens to better resolve upscaled 8K images  and perhaps we might see a new laser model next  year.  

Its extremely expensive to implement. The other 'half' of the missing chassis between the NX9 and the Z1 is heat pipes and cooling.

 

Edited by Javs

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Yep, it doesn't make sense to use a laser light source unless the intent is to get a lot more lumens out of the projector than is practical with a lamp. It adds a lot of complexity - cost and the money is better spent on a higher quality lens and optical system as they will show more benefit. 

When lumens are increased via a more powerful lamp or a laser light source the size and weight of the projector goes up due to cooling requirements, and thats not going to be acceptable to many consumers. Since the new JVC's are bigger and heavier than the X series, which where already large and heavy, its easy to understand why the JVC's new model lineup is the way it is.

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Anyone found any feedback from ifa on the new Sony’s ? It’s rather odd I have only found bit of feedback that I posted here, seems nothing else ?

 

no care factor ?

 

surely the new 570es / 870es is of interest to some ?

 

anyone else find something on them ?

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4 minutes ago, :) al said:

surely the new 570es / 870es is of interest to some ?

The 570ES is of interest to me. The 870 is way out of my league. My choice is between:

 

760ES

570ES

N7

NX9

 

A lot will depend on what the final pricing is for all of them, and what the initial reviews say about particularly their handling of HDR and DCI P3 coverage in reality, and the benefits of each compared to the price gaps. Looking at promised specs it looks like really the 570ES has enough to make the 760ES look too expensive for a few extra lumens and iffy 4KP50/60 handling. The N7 and NX9 look like they cream the Sonys on DCI P3 coverage and HDR tone mapping, but Sony has the better reputation on upscaling. I *was* pretty much settled on the laser Sony until the new projectors were announced, now... 

 

Luckily I've got a bit of time before I have to make a decision. 

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16 hours ago, Tasso said:

In the context of this discussion on forums  around the world , the  term "upscaling"  is an all inclusive term describing the video process that the projector uses  of converting the 1080p input  signal to be fed to the native 4K panels.

Since when? Scaling and sharpening functions are seperate in ALL displays and always have been. Its important consumers understand this as it gives greater insight into why they see what they see.

 

16 hours ago, Tasso said:

99.9999% of users do not use PC's and MAD VR  to correct the  projectors inability to do it better so the projector performance in this regard is relevant , even if it isn't a point in favour of JVC.

I acknowledged that in my post, see below. Why did you choose to ignore what I said?

 

18 hours ago, Owen said:

Unfortunately most people are not going to know what the picture needs and how to get it so there is definitely a case for Sonys "Reality Creation" which is quite effective and simple to configure. Its not the be all and end all, no single system is, but for the average consumer it has a lot of merit IMHO.

 

16 hours ago, Tasso said:

You also seem to be under the misapprehension that JVC  do no sharpening of the image because  you cant see  it on the user menus, like RC.

Applying sharpening when the user controls are set to off has never been the norm with projectors or TV's, its a new thing that Sony has been doing recently, older Sony projectors and TV's didn't do it and I'm not aware of other manufactures doing it either. If sharpening is being applied its typically picked up in testing and by fussy users, thats how the sharpening in the Sonys was discovered.

Its important that consumers be aware of hidden picture enhancement when comparing products as it makes valid comparison impossible. One of the first things that should be done when comparing displays is disable ALL picture enhancement systems.

 

17 hours ago, Tasso said:

By your own statement,  extra video noise is a dead giveaway that sharpening is being applied.   The complaint made about the new JVC projectors was that there was a lot of extra video noise visible when the projector was fed 1080p material - evidence that JVC is applying too much sharpening?

Its highly likely sharpening was cranked up for the demo, but its yet to be seen if there is any sharpening being applied when sharpening functions are disabled in the user menu.

If sharpening cannot be disabled in the new JVC's they will cop a lot of flak as many people object to not having full control, and that includes plenty of people in this forum.

 

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Just thinking on the JVC faux 8K - would a stitched projection system using 2 or 4 '4K' projectors work?

Maybe there is something similar already but there must be issues on overlap and convergence?

I just keep thinking IMAX did it. 3D do it. Is there possibility of single projector with 2 panels each with own light sources?

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47 minutes ago, Owen said:

Its highly likely sharpening was cranked up for the demo, but its yet to be seen if there is any sharpening being applied when sharpening functions are disabled in the user menu.

If sharpening cannot be disabled in the new JVC's they will cop a lot of flak as many people object to not having full control, and that includes plenty of people in this forum.

 

We know enhance was set to 5 at the IFA demo initially (the day that prompted these comments), which is a setting I LOATH. So that would be the first thing turned off if I had a unit in front of me.

 

We also now know that the mosquito noise reported by 'Ran' on AVS was corrected on the 2nd viewing as to not be present in actuality.

 

It was the Oppo adding the noise, outputting 1080p and not UHD resolution (even with 4K content- downscaling to 1080p), and having seen the Oppo myself and used it, I really, really disliked its sharpening settings, even set to 1 it was horribly overcooking the picture. Pair that with enhance = 5 and 1080p input forcing the JVC to upscale whatever crap the Oppo was adding is a recipe for disaster.

 

ArrowAV has had a private demo and said there is absolutely zero noise on the JVC in 4K, to which Ran subsequently returned and had another demo and did agree that indeed there was no noise the second time around (with the oppo set properly).

 

What you may also have is Sony people saying there is more noise on the JVC, when in fact they are used to un-defeatable noise reduction processing on the Sony, and not use to seeing the real film grain - I have had arguments ad nauseam on AVS about this.

 

I can prove it, look at the sky (right click view image):

 

JVC X7000

 

WOQf3bK.jpg

 

Sony 320ES (RC On 5 - Noise Reduction set to OFF.)

 

mzDaWQ2.jpg

 

Original UHD source frame (this is indeed the exact same frame):

 

chJ7au5.jpg

 

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/119795

 

Which of the above projector images contain grain structure closest to the source material?

 

I will give you a hint, its not the Sony :)

 

Of course the 4K aspect of the Sony IS rendering the windows etc properly. But with both JVC and Sony being native now, this noise reduction thing should be an issue for people, its something you should be able to turn off, but you cant.

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49 minutes ago, WasM said:

Just thinking on the JVC faux 8K - would a stitched projection system using 2 or 4 '4K' projectors work?

Maybe there is something similar already but there must be issues on overlap and convergence?

For a start 8K is completely pointless for movie viewing in a home environment and always will be.

Converging 2 projected images over the entire image area is impossible, even at 2K, so using 2 4K projectors will give you less resolution than one, potentially a LOT less.

 

E-Shift avoids convergence issues because its shifting a single image by a predetermined amount so affects all pixels equally by design. This is likely going to be more practical and may perform better than a native 8K projector because converging the red , green and blue images from the three imaging chips at 8K accuratly is going to a technical nightmare and is likley impossible, especially in a consumer product at a price point under $100K.

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43 minutes ago, Javs said:

But with both JVC and Sony being native now, this noise reduction thing should be an issue for people, its something you should be able to turn off, but you cant.

Good point about the noise reduction in the Sony. I didn't know it was un defeatable but given the un defeatable sharpening its understandable. Hopefully Sony will wake up and allow ALL picture "enhancements" to be fully disabled in new models as many people don't consider them "enhancements" at all.

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9 minutes ago, Owen said:

For a start 8K is completely pointless for movie viewing in a home environment and always will be.

Converging 2 projected images over the entire image area is impossible, even at 2K, so using 2 4K projectors will give you less resolution than one, potentially a LOT less.

 

E-Shift avoids convergence issues because its shifting a single image by a predetermined amount so affects all pixels equally by design. This is likely going to be more practical and may perform better than a native 8K projector because converging the red , green and blue images from the three imaging chips at 8K accuratly is going to a technical nightmare and is likley impossible, especially in a consumer product at a price point under $100K.

Convergence aside there must be other merits to using dual projection as they do in some cinemas. Brightness for one.

Not saying its easy to do or design for but IMAX or dual projection theatres must have some way of getting around the convergence issues.

Does anyone know if digital cinemas' use pixel shifting?

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