Jump to content

The job of a pre amp


Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

I quickly checked the manual to see if it had an "error detect" light .... but it may have a pad on the circuit board which can be monitored.    This will tell, whenever there is a read error.

How that refers to my challenge to George...

I do not know...missed something in translation...

Link to comment
Share on other sites



43 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

DAC that has a digital domain volume control, that also operates that volume on the spidf digital output

TC Electronic DACs ... but most pro/semi gear offers this option on some models.

 

It's obviously uncommon in hfi gear.   I just noticed your DAC had a good selection of inputs and ouputs, and though it might have had that flexibility....  things like that (fixed and variables outputs, etc.) seemed more common back then too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Volunteer
40 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

In my case <150hz, Art said it definitely wasn't practical, as it was meters.

Maybe I’m doing this wrong (quite possible)

 

MiniDSP website suggests their latency is around 1.5mS. 

Sound travels around 300m/s so a delay of 1.5 milliseconds is roughly 45 cm. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Rob181 said:

How that refers to my challenge to George...

I do not know...missed something in translation...

You are challenging him to see whether a original or burned CD would "sound the same/different/worse/whatever".

 

CD players can TELL you when the data isn't read perfectly.... and I was suggesting that a better test (than using his ears) would be checking the "data error" indicator.... and he will see, if there is 1 in a blue moon error on the original .... and zillions of errors on the burnt copy ... then he would be right.   Listening to stuff just adds a whole other layer of unnecessary soup to things  ;)

 

 

... but on most players it's not an easy thing to access.  Especially newer ones.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



Just now, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Maybe I’m doing this wrong (quite possible)

Yep :) 

 

Just now, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

MiniDSP website suggests their latency is around 1.5mS. 

 

This is the latency that the DSP introduces from it's input to output all the time (with no filters active).

 

Filters add their own delay.   The type of filter influences the delay.    Some types of DSP filters can have lots and lots of delay  ..... t hey would have the same delay if done in analogue, but it's impractical to make them without DSP .... and hence people end up with the misnomer that the delay is "because DSP".    The delay is because of the filter.

 

(Aside from the 1.5ms for the minidsp, which is unavoidable)

 

This is why I suggested to G to choose filters which had less delay.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Rob181 said:

OK...

I'm suggesting his ears...

:) 

 

Let's say...  that he thinks that the original sounds better.      But in fact, both discs read perfectly.   You were right (that the burn one will be read fine) ... but it was never shown.

 

Let's say .... that he can't tell the difference between the two discs.    But in fact, the burned on had read errors that were quite large (vs. no read errors on the original).    He was right (the burned one didn't read properly)  .... but it was never shown. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

I think you'll find that if a player can't identify a 0 or a 1 it substitutes what was last identified for a replacement of the corrupted unreadable. In other words a 50/50 chance of getting it right.

That's right... or other techniques.

 

Error "correction" requires delay .... so in the event that a read is known to be wrong.... the player can go back and read the data again....   but still deliver it timely enough for there not to be a "pause" in the audio output.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

That's right... or other techniques.

 

Error "correction" requires delay .... so in the event that a read is known to be wrong.... the player can go back and read the data again....   but still deliver it timely enough for there not to be a "pause" in the audio output.

 

That will depend on the quality of the physical media itself and how well that laser sees the info....    ever seen a cd/DVD sit there restarting to spin again again, it pisses me off!   The optical media was designed and released in the mid 80s lets leave it there....  can’t wait for it to disappear like tape.

Edited by Addicted to music
Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • 1 month later...

For me the job of a good preamp would be usb in, volume control, signal sending to the poweramp and being invisible, but NO, manufacturers tend to give hoards of different useless-to-me inputs.

 

Make the volume a rotating knob, not a button.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, warweary said:

For me the job of a good preamp would be usb in, volume control, signal sending to the poweramp and being invisible, but NO, manufacturers tend to give hoards of different useless-to-me inputs.  Make the volume a rotating knob, not a button.

http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R28/R28EN.htm   ???  $1400

 

If you can do without analogue inputs, balanced outputs, or remote control .... then there is a ~$400 version.

... or if you want to go "full retard", then there's a version with only digital inputs ... no remote control or analogue inputs .... which is ~$5000

 

 

They all have a totally analogue volume stage, with a turny knob to control it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 03/08/2018 at 9:24 PM, Ihearmusic said:

You won't hear anyone say an amplifier should only be wire with gain to drive speakers.

Sorry, but that has been my understanding of an amplifier's function, and I've heard it referenced as such for 40 years.

From memory Stu Hegeman came up with the term in the 50's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, A9X said:

Sorry, but that has been my understanding of an amplifier's function, and I've heard it referenced as such for 40 years.

From memory Stu Hegeman came up with the term in the 50's.

A wire with gain implies that a signal is amplified without coloration. I am positive that there is an amplifier out there that comes close to that. But on a more realistic level, that is not what everyone likes, hence the multitude of different amplifiers on the market. Individuals seeking out the amplifier with the coloration that suits their taste.

So therefor "wire with gain" hints at uniformity that might have been a dream in the 50's but does not apply in today's world where individuality is the new flavour.

To sum it up, an amplifier is a device that amplifies a signal and presents it to the individual to their personal taste.

Amplifier=Gain with coloration to suit!

But that might be only my opinion.?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



9 minutes ago, Ihearmusic said:

A wire with gain implies that a signal is amplified without coloration.

I'm well aware of that.

 

9 minutes ago, Ihearmusic said:

I am positive that there is an amplifier out there that comes close to that.

I am positive that there are far more neutral amplifiers out there than audiophiles believe.

 

10 minutes ago, Ihearmusic said:

But on a more realistic level, that is not what everyone likes, hence the multitude of different amplifiers on the market. Individuals seeking out the amplifier with the coloration that suits their taste.

Again, I have yet to have anyone ever reliably pick between two decent SS amps running within their limits without knowing what they are listening to. So the idea that amplifiers are Baskin Robbins is totally unproven to me

 

14 minutes ago, Ihearmusic said:

To sum it up, an amplifier is a device that amplifies a signal and presents it to the individual to their personal taste.

Why would anyone want a fixed tone control like that?.

13 minutes ago, Ihearmusic said:

So therefor "wire with gain" hints at uniformity that might have been a dream in the 50's

This is called high fidelity, and that expression is used for good reason.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Individuality in the sound? That belongs with the musicians.

Well, I do play in an orchestra (not professional), so that makes me a musician.

I am also an individual and there are certain things I like about the Sound an amplifier delivers that you might not like. That I call "individuality".

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, A9X said:

 

 

Again, I have yet to have anyone ever reliably pick between two decent SS amps running within their limits without knowing what they are listening to. So the idea that amplifiers are Baskin Robbins is totally unproven to me

 

 

Better tell Cafad to stop reviewing amplifiers then because there is no point as they are all decent SS amps and therefore all should sound the same.

?

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Volunteer
15 hours ago, Ihearmusic said:

hence the multitude of different amplifiers on the market. Individuals seeking out the amplifier with the coloration that suits their taste.

There’s also a multitude of different preamps on the market. Applying your logic, this is because individuals are seeking colouration. Agreed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites



10 hours ago, Ihearmusic said:

Better tell Cafad to stop reviewing amplifiers then because there is no point as they are all decent SS amps and therefore all should sound the same.

 

He, whomever he is, can spend his time how he chooses. I feel he's basically wasting his time, and my comment comes from doing a whole lot of testing blind, both with myself and others who've claimed to be able to here these 'vast' differences between amplifiers.

Edited by A9X
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, A9X said:

He, whomever he is, can spend his time how he chooses. I feel he's basically wasting his time, and my comment comes from doing a whole lot of testing blind, both with myself and others who've claimed to be able to here these 'vast' differences between amplifiers.

I have the exact opposite findings from doing a 6 month period of blind testing.

I have come to think that they are never done right in the right conditions and seem to always come to same conclusion, that they make everything sound the same. 

I did a lot of reading and searching why this seems to be the case for me. I have posted about in length on this site. No need to fill this thread up again with this as it never ends well.

I think unless done by very controlled conditions and by experts, who trained in hearing subtle differences and are aware of the pitfalls (maybe someone like harman labs), then you seem to find 99% of conclusions is they all sound the same or can't pick them.

 

I too was one of those that thought they all sounded the same during my testing until I read about all the tricks our mind can do.

Edited by rocky500
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Ihearmusic said:

that is not what everyone likes

This may or may not be true, as it is a complicated thing  (I think it is generally not true, but whatever) .... engineering sensibilities say that "adding a flavour" in such a way (with a non-linear gain stage) is a very poor plan.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Ihearmusic said:

as they are all decent SS amps and therefore all should sound the same.

I feel this logic is commonly misunderstood (or purposefully misinterpreted?).    Decently performing amplifiers can sound the same, if the stars align and they are used under conditions where they aren't forced to perform differently.    This is often not the case when 'unstructured' testing is used.   Eg. non-linear gain or distortion with load impedance, or with drive level .... wildly different performance with clipping., etc. etc.

Edited by davewantsmoore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

There’s also a multitude of different preamps on the market. Applying your logic, this is because individuals are seeking colouration. Agreed?

Absolutely agreed. Why else would it be that the best recommendation given when choosing new equipment, is to have a listen to it in your own system.

System synergy is most important.

Other factors to consider to explain the multitude of equipment out there are the looks of the gear.

This might be subconscious but if one does not like the look of a component, it won't make it into ones listening room.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...
To Top