MSB TECHNOLOGY DISCRETE DAC NOW SHIPPING

[davewantsmoore]

26 minutes ago, zenelectro said:

This is not a new approach and from memory DACs like

Yeah, quite a few   

[Ittaku]

So I need to provide a detailed summary of my listening experience which was fantastic by the way, courtesy of SGR Audio AKA Audio fidelity, but it will take quite some time to discuss and I've spent most of today listening to the DAC I ended up buying... which completely unexpectedly ended up being the MSB Reference DAC. I also learnt something interesting about just what they mean by hybrid DAC, as on the very day I took one home, coincidentally TAS put up a review of the same DAC that I bought and explained it. The "hybrid" DAC modules, which are in the reference and Select DACs (their reference model and their cost no-object model) are called hybrid because they do DSD as a ladder DAC but actually do PCM as a multibit DAC! That means the vast majority of what people listen to, and basically everything I will listen to, will be through a multibit DAC. As I've said many many times before, it's never about technology but about implementation and I didn't buy the DAC based on its technology, but its sound. Hopefully I'll find time to describe my findings tomorrow. I listened to sequential increases in the MSB range so I have my own view of what each had to offer.

In the meantime, here's the TAS review:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/msb-reference-dac-and-transport/

[davewantsmoore]

Quote

In PCM mode these ladders become extreme-precision multibit DACs. In DSD mode they become a huge number of single-bit DACs

Right - things make more sense now.

 

So, not at all unlike the ESS Sabre.

[Steve M]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

“...I've spent most of today listening to the DAC I ended up buying... which completely unexpectedly ended up being the MSB Reference DAC.“

 

Wow Con! that’s a big plunge you just took into the world of super hi-end @ $50K+. Congrats on the MSB Reference it must be a one helluva impressive dac, the TAS reviewer certainly liked it. Are your OB speakers going to keep up now? 

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Steve M

[Ittaku]

6 hours ago, Steve M said:

Wow Con! that’s a big plunge you just took into the world of super hi-end @ $50K+. Congrats on the MSB Reference it must be a one helluva impressive dac, the TAS reviewer certainly liked it. Are your OB speakers going to keep up now?

Thanks. The funny thing is, as I said, I bought it and brought it home and then looked up reviews and found the new TAS review! It was sheer coincidence the review came out the same day. You'll also note the order with which I do things - listen and reject, or listen and buy, and then read reviews

Bear in mind the DAC is in the same price range as the power amps that I have. The cheapest component is the preamp! I listened to other preamps at many times the cost of the one I have but I was relatively disappointed. My only qualm with it remains construction. I'll talk more about that on my own thread as this was quite a wild ride and the preamp presented new challenges once I took the DAC home.

My speakers are awesome (tongue in cheek), especially that chunk of MDF that pretends to be a baffle... no I have no doubt they'll keep up, especially once I get the new goddamn baffles made and can put the extra drivers in there. I've listened to enough things in the stratospheric price range to know that I'm happy with what I hear. For the record, SGR had the same speakers to demo the equipment as they had at the hi-fi show (The MT3.2 I believe is the model) making for good comparisons between DACs.

[georgehifi]

7 hours ago, Ittaku said:

I didn't buy the DAC based on its technology, but its sound. Hopefully I'll find time to describe my findings tomorrow.

But your hearing and brain did lead you to purchase R2R ladder dac sound, and "discrete: at that.

Though I wonder if discrete is a positive here, if they still made top end audio R2R d/a converters in chip form today, wonder which would be better, somethings in a smaller packages could be better. 

Could they get the laser trimming of the R2R resistors inside a chip as accurate as buying smd one off the shelf. Could noise because of ground planes be better in chips, guess we'll never know, unless!! discrete dac's become so popular (which they are) that the chip manufacturers decide to want some of that action and start make them again.  

 

Cheers George 

[Ittaku]

So I'll try and recount my experiences with the discrete DAC and friends.

 

Firstly, a shout out to the guys at https://www.audiofidelity.com.au/. They were fantastic at setting up exactly the sort of audition I needed, though it took quite a while to organise, having started investigating a couple of months back (but was worth it!) All the equipment I got to test was already burned in and actually all warmed up as well. They set up their reference speakers for me, which were needed to really do these DACs justice because they're resolving enough and very neutral in their presentation and close enough to being full range. As speakers go, their design are actually somewhat removed from mine, with closed boxes, and active class A/B SS 850W amplification (which would have spent 90%o f their time in class A) while mine are passive, open baffle and use valve class A/B 250W amplification (and I never drive mine into class B). Fortunately being similar dynamic drivers their sonic signature wasn't that far removed from mine though so with enough time I felt I could "see through" the differences and just listen to the DAC. The main reason I could do this was we only ever changed one component at a time. Bear in mind that these are all subtle changes, and I'm being ruthless because I am comparing DACs at stratospheric prices! Also all of this is sighted listening, so if you're only interested in blind comparisons, stop reading here.

 

First up was the discrete DAC. This is MSB's new base model offering, though still at a pretty steep price for most people. I would describe the sound from it as neutral, polite, unobtrusive, reasonably detailed without any real hint of glare or fatiguing sound. It's not an in-your-face kind of sound, with decent soundstage presentation and would probably be great for long-term listening. I couldn't help shake the feeling that there was something missing from the top end though, with it being soft and missing the liquid sweetness I was expecting. The other thing that was odd was this strange feeling that the phase or balance was almost off, with the soundstage being off to the left. I thought it might have been the room initially since there was an open door to the right, but later DACs revealed to me that this was actually an intrinsic quality of this DAC. I have no idea what it means since these things measure exceptionally well, but it was there. Suffice to say that I wasn't exactly blown away by the sound, but I rated it above PS Audio's top offering, and far above the Chord DAVE, which I have expressed on numerous occasions to dislike. Not as bold or big and brash as the Chord, but lacked all the glare and fatigue of that.

 

The next thing we did was put in the premier powerbase onto the discrete DAC. This is a power supply that costs almost as much as the DAC itself. I wasn't expecting a dramatic improvement to be honest since the default discrete power supply is still a very good power supply. I was quite wrong. This was an instant improvement. A huge veil was lifted from the sound and the stage all went into focus and shifted back a few feet, and that odd left sided stage aspect disappeared with a much more solid presentation with instruments where they should be. Everything also sounded "cleaner" with a layer of grunge just disappearing.

 

I then tried going back to the default discrete power supply, but using two of them instead of one (which is an optional extra but nowhere near the cost of the premier powerbase). My memory of the sound of the DAC with the single discrete power supply was that this didn't sound remarkably better, it was a little more solid in its presentation but that was about it. The premier powerbase was a dramatic improvement by comparison.

 

Now bear in mind that the price of the discrete DAC + premier powerbase actually ends up costing as much as the next step up DAC, the premier. The premier comes with a premier powerbase so it wouldn't actually make much sense to buy the discrete and powerbase unlesss you bought it as an upgrade later on, or you thought it sounded better than the premier (very unlikely.)

 

Next up we tried the premier DAC. Well this was an instant remarkable improvement over the former in ways that I particularly like. Suddenly there were much more harmonics filling in the sound of instruments, it's as though there was some kind of comb removing every other harmonic on the discrete and the premier filled all these in. It made for a much richer sound and instruments sounded more full bodied and warmer. All the instruments had more presence in their presentation, and it simply breathed more real world life into the music. At this point I was starting to like what I heard and wanted to take this home and audition it in my system.

 

Next up we tried something that I wasn't expecting much if anything from - going back and forth between the default clock and the more accurate lower jitter clock. Now we've had a long discussion about jitter on another thread and the scientific conclusion is that jitter is not a problem, but clock implementation may be. The default clock on the premier DAC, MSB does not actually describe its accuracy, but the clock upgrade is called a femto 93, meaning less than 93 femtoseconds of jitter, but no further description. Most accurate standard clocks these days are in the picosecond range (10-100?) so this would make the clock upgrade potentially 1000 times more accurate, but also implementation details may be just as important as the accuracy. Anyway enough introduction, what did I hear? Upon initially changing to the more accurate clock I did not hear anything dramatic. Just a subtle improvement to how much the sound is confined to the speakers. But then we did some back and forth between them and there was more to the difference. It's hard to describe, but going back to the lower spec clock there was just more grunge to the sound, as though when plucking on a guitar for example, the plectrum dragged on the string slightly before letting go of it. I did not anticipate this improvement with a clock upgrade but there you have it. Maybe the clock was just quieter rather than anything to do with its accuracy? Who knows.

 

So I was going to take the premier home and audition it in my own system but then I was given an offer I couldn't pass up - they had an ex-demo reference DAC they were selling and would I like a listen? I said sure since it was bringing it closer to the amount I was willing to spend on a DAC. We plugged it in and had a listen. The difference was not subtle. It breathed life into everything, added literally tons of detail to everything, made singers' consonants bite as though they were standing there, changed the stage - didn't just make it bigger; it made close mic'ed instruments huge, but ones that were further back actually got smaller and focussed! The harmonic richness went up yet another notch. Bass, oh my god, what happened there? It sounded like the bass was turned up. I don't get it, all these things measure the same frequency responses... Everything just sounded more real, and there was this intense sense of quietness around and between the notes. Anyway I didn't even need to audition it in my system as I heard things through this DAC I'd never heard before. It came with a clock upgrade to the femto 77 (140 is default). Sold.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Ittaku

[Addicted to music]

@Ittaku

 

congrats on your purchase Con,  no doubt it compliments your rig.

 

any changes in psu do make a clear difference and you don’t need blind test to do it.  It’ll be interesting to get a shot of the internals with the standard psu and the upgraded psu.  Form somewhere on the net.  For me, changing filter supply caps Definately altered the SQ.

[Ittaku]

Unfortunately there isn't a picture of the internals of the discrete power supply but this is what it looks like:

Premier powerbase:

Reference dual powerbase:

[Addicted to music]

WOW, That’s dual ref base is one sick psu!   

[Jventer]

45 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I don't get it, all these things measure the same frequency responses... Everything just sounded more real, and there was this intense sense of quietness around and between the notes. Anyway I didn't even need to audition it in my system as I heard things through this DAC I'd never heard before. It came with a clock upgrade to the femto 77 (140 is default). Sold.

I just love this as it describe emotion - that is what we have when we enjoy music.

 "All these things measure the same frequency responses". @Ittaku I really appreciate your post, you are describing what I hear and feel when I listen to some equipment regardless of measurement. 

Thank you so much for sharing.

I trust that your new dac will give you much pleasure.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jventer

[Ittaku]

1 minute ago, Addicted to music said:

WOW, That’s dual ref base is one sick psu!   

Hah, the scary thing is you can even upgrade from that to dual mono powerbases!

[Addicted to music]

Just now, Ittaku said:

Hah, the scary thing is you can even upgrade from that to dual mono powerbases!

Now that’s horrifying...

[bzr]

Welcome to the world of MSB ownership. I bet this changes your outlook on a few things for the better, congrats on the new component.

[MLXXX]

11 hours ago, Ittaku said:

The next thing we did was put in the premier powerbase onto the discrete DAC. This is a power supply that costs almost as much as the DAC itself. I wasn't expecting a dramatic improvement to be honest since the default discrete power supply is still a very good power supply. I was quite wrong. This was an instant improvement. A huge veil was lifted from the sound and the stage all went into focus and shifted back a few feet, and that odd left sided stage aspect disappeared with a much more solid presentation with instruments where they should be. Everything also sounded "cleaner" with a layer of grunge just disappearing.

I had no idea a DAC could require such nurturing as regards its power supply. 

 

Perhaps batteries could be used, removing the possibility of mains-borne interference affecting the DAC. And if voltage regulation is an issue the batteries could be inserted before the regulator, i.e. at the output of the rectifier attached to the secondary winding of the transformer. The batteries could be switched into the circuit when the DAC was required to perform optimally. On other occasions the DAC could be powered from the default discrete mains supply.

 

A battery holder and switch would be easy to incorporate and quite cheap.  In fact perhaps the manufacturer of the default discrete mains supply could consider offering that option in a future design. It could probably be adapted to use rechargeable batteries.

Edited December 22, 2018 by MLXXX

[frankn]

18 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

I had no idea a DAC could require such nurturing as regards its power supply. 

 

Perhaps batteries could be used, removing the possibility of mains-borne interference affecting the DAC. And if voltage regulation is an issue the batteries could be inserted before the regulator, i.e. at the output of the rectifier attached to the secondary winding of the transformer. The batteries could be switched into the circuit when the DAC was required to perform optimally. On other occasions the DAC could be powered from the default discrete mains supply.

 

A battery holder and switch would be easy to incorporate and quite cheap.  In fact perhaps the manufacturer of the default discrete mains supply could consider offering that option in a future design. It could probably be adapted to use rechargeable batteries.

Perhaps MSB has already researched this and decided it wasn’t as good as their active version?

You should contact MSB and offer them your idea/expertise - they might engage you in conversation. 

[Ittaku]

40 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

I had no idea a DAC could require such nurturing as regards its power supply. 

 

Perhaps batteries could be used, removing the possibility of mains-borne interference affecting the DAC. And if voltage regulation is an issue the batteries could be inserted before the regulator, i.e. at the output of the rectifier attached to the secondary winding of the transformer. The batteries could be switched into the circuit when the DAC was required to perform optimally. On other occasions the DAC could be powered from the default discrete mains supply.

 

A battery holder and switch would be easy to incorporate and quite cheap.  In fact perhaps the manufacturer of the default discrete mains supply could consider offering that option in a future design. It could probably be adapted to use rechargeable batteries.

I went in expecting a subtle difference if anything so I'm as surprised as you are. I mean I've heard many many times how important the power supply to pretty much everything is but this was shocking. I was kinda hoping it'd be a "squint and you can make something out maybe" type change that I could then say I didn't need the extra expense. As for batteries, the reference DAC at least specifies that it consumes up to 90W. I'm guessing being linear supplies it actually needs just under half that so say 40W. 40W of batteries would probably be consumed pretty quickly... and batteries have variable voltage too so they'd need regulation as well, and there are 4 separate outputs, so it'd be a multiple arrangement. Most of the DC hi-fi arrangements I've seen based on batteries or similar are novel and interesting but inconvenient. Perhaps it's the last factor most of all that they didn't want in their products. These days a rechargeable lithium setup would be quite feasible though; I mean I drive a car that runs off them so they can be used for anything if you try...

[andyr]

12 hours ago, Jventer said:

I just love this as it describe emotion - that is what we have when we enjoy music.

@Ittaku I really appreciate your post, you are describing what I hear and feel when I listen to some equipment regardless of measurement.

 

Hope you have your flame-proof undies on, Jv ... there are people here who won't accept you can't just listen to something, to work out that it's good! 

 

Andy

 

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, frankn said:

Perhaps MSB has already researched this and decided it wasn’t as good as their active version?

You should contact MSB and offer them your idea/expertise - they might engage you in conversation. 

I don't think MSB are looking for anything as simple as a rechargeable battery power supply. I see that even a device to isolate the subwoofer is priced at US$995. An upgrade from the discrete power supply costs US$7,500. Interestingly, the DAC itself is "only" US$9,959.00.  These prices currently appear on the MSB Technology webpage: http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/discrete-dac-pricing/

 

Another accessory is the rack, which appears to be an elegant stand. It is priced at US$4,995 for a basic stand, expandable for an additional US$4,995, or and additional US$9,990. As the marketing states:-

 

"Rack performance is engineered to perfection. Bring on the envy."

 

Details for the rack can be found at: http://www.msbtechnology.com/accessories/ref-rack/

T

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

I had no idea a DAC could require such nurturing as regards its power supply. 

 

Perhaps batteries could be used, removing the possibility of mains-borne interference affecting the DAC. And if voltage regulation is an issue the batteries could be inserted before the regulator, i.e. at the output of the rectifier attached to the secondary winding of the transformer. The batteries could be switched into the circuit when the DAC was required to perform optimally. On other occasions the DAC could be powered from the default discrete mains supply.

 

A battery holder and switch would be easy to incorporate and quite cheap.  In fact perhaps the manufacturer of the default discrete mains supply could consider offering that option in a future design. It could probably be adapted to use rechargeable batteries.

 

Aah, you go by the 'greenie' creed, MLXXX - if it's battery ... it must be good! 

 

Sure, battery supply can deliver great results ... but you shouldn't make the mistake that it must be the optimal power solution.  Viz an experiment I did about 4 years ago, comparing different 48v PSs for my TT motor speed controller.

Note: this was with a motor speed controller - not a signal processing device!

 

I had expected to find the SLA PS that I had spent over $300 on would sound the best (it's battery, right - so it must be the best! ) ... but it wasn't.  The 48v SLA supply was 2 stacks of 4 SLAs in parallel (to lower the output impedance of the batteries) plus a film cap across the output.  But in increasing order of SQ resulting from the PSs, it went:

• Meanwell SMPS (which was supplied with the TT motor speed controller)
• linear PS
• SLA PS
• linear PS - plus an isolation tx and hash filter between it and the wall socket
• Meanwell SMPS - plus an isolation tx and hash filter between it and the wall socket.

 

Andy

 

[MLXXX]

52 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I went in expecting a subtle difference if anything so I'm as surprised as you are. I mean I've heard many many times how important the power supply to pretty much everything is but this was shocking. I was kinda hoping it'd be a "squint and you can make something out maybe" type change that I could then say I didn't need the extra expense. As for batteries, the reference DAC at least specifies that it consumes up to 90W. I'm guessing being linear supplies it actually needs just under half that so say 40W. 40W of batteries would probably be consumed pretty quickly... and batteries have variable voltage too so they'd need regulation as well, and there are 4 separate outputs, so it'd be a multiple arrangement. Most of the DC hi-fi arrangements I've seen based on batteries or similar are novel and interesting but inconvenient. Perhaps it's the last factor most of all that they didn't want in their products. These days a rechargeable lithium setup would be quite feasible though; I mean I drive a car that runs off them so they can be used for anything if you try...

Did you get to hear "The Select DAC", which I see has a manufacturer's recommended retail price of  US$84,500?

 

Perhaps it would represent another non-subtle step up.

 

I must say though I wonder how recording studios are able to compete. Do they spend this sort of money on their ADCs?  No need to answer; more a rhetorical question.

[Ittaku]

1 minute ago, MLXXX said:

Did you get to hear "The Select DAC", which I see has a manufacturer's recommended retail price of  US$84,500?

 

Perhaps it would represent another non-subtle step up.

No, thank Christ. Otherwise I'd be looking to scrounge up $150k from somewhere... It's important to recognise that the reference DAC is considered their reference, whilst the Select is the price-no-object DAC where they do stupid things so perhaps it isn't a big step up after all... or at least I can keep telling myself that.

[MLXXX]

6 minutes ago, andyr said:

Aah, you go by the 'greenie' creed, MLXXX - if it's battery ... it must be good!  

Well I thought this would isolate a DAC vulnerable to mains-borne interference from such interference. As Itaku has pointed out, in this case it might need to be pretty powerful.

 

8 minutes ago, andyr said:

But in increasing order of SQ resulting from the PSs, it went:

• Meanwell SMPS (which was supplied with the TT motor speed controller)
• linear PS
• SLA PS
• linear PS - plus an isolation tx and hash filter between it and the wall socket
• Meanwell SMPS - plus an isolation tx and hash filter between it and the wall socket.

MMn, I don't quite understand. Was the issue the stability of the TT rotational speed, or whether or not noise and hash etc was being injected into wiring near the TT?  

[MLXXX]

5 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

No, thank Christ. Otherwise I'd be looking to scrounge up $150k from somewhere... It's important to recognise that the reference DAC is considered their reference, whilst the Select is the price-no-object DAC where they do...

Well a 3-tier rack strikes me as a "price is no object" item!

 

Off-topic:

I've been thinking I should set up an A B comparison at home to compare an analogue signal with the same signal converted to say 96/24 with one of my recording ADCs and then converted back to analogue with one of my DACs, to hear the extent of audible degradation.  

I could compare live chamber music from microphones with an on-the-fly conversion to digital and then back to analogue.

I note that AVRs routinely do double conversions these days in their internal circuitry unless a "pure direct" mode is engaged. An AVR will accept analogue input, convert it to digital for any DSP, and then convert the digital to analogue. [If doing room correction DSP, conversion to digital becomes a necessary step, unless the signal is supplied to the amplifier in digital form.]

 

[Ittaku]

51 minutes ago, andyr said:

Hope you have your flame-proof undies on, Jv ... there are people here who won't accept you can't just listen to something, to work out that it's good! 

Indeed, there's a reason in my review post I said everything was sighted and that if they wanted blind testing they should stop reading right there