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007orac

THE BEST 4K Laser projector

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Evening all

 

I have lived with a JVC X9 projector for a few years.  I been happy with the picture quality specially the black blacks.  However it has not been a very reliable machine requiring several trips to the repair shop with various issues.      :  (

 

For peace of mind I been thinking of moving to a Laser machine...……..Hooray no bulbs to replace......LOL

 

Because I liked the picture of the JVC X9 I was looking at is latest reincarnation the JVC  X9900   .   It has had good reviews but its not native 4K machine but a "Double your pixel for you money machine"  and its still a bulb machine.

 

Heard it say as I have not had the benefit of a side by side comparison but some say you cant tell a double you pixel machine from a true native 4K machine...…………….what is your thoughts on that sales pitch  ? 

 

Staying with JVC they got a native 4K machine the JVC Z1...……...but hells bells it forty grand   !  !  !

 

And even if I robbed a bank there is the fact the my current JVC has not been a reliable machine which kind of puts you off..

 

Also looking at and also bloody expensive...…...but not as bad a the JVC Z1 is Sony's  VPL-VW760ES   .   It also has had good reviews as with the Z1...…….but apparently the blacks are not as black as my present JVC but it is however a true native 4K machine

 

Anybody got one and care to comment   ?

 

Specially if you have lived for some time with the Sony VPL  VW760ES

 

Your thoughts are most welcome guys.

 

Cheers

 

Paul 

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49 minutes ago, 007orac said:

Evening all

 

I have lived with a JVC X9 projector for a few years.  I been happy with the picture quality specially the black blacks.  However it has not been a very reliable machine requiring several trips to the repair shop with various issues.      :  (

 

For peace of mind I been thinking of moving to a Laser machine...……..Hooray no bulbs to replace......LOL

firstly i am not surprised the x9 was a turkey basically all their machines x30 and before all had some issue or other the x35 onwards were solid machines. keep in mind with a laser once burnt out thats it you put whole machine on a nature strip. for the cost of bulbs and the length of life people are getting with current gen JVCs Xx000 and later ie 4000 hours plus it would take a heck of a lot of bulbs to make up for the massive cost difference of a laser machine. what laser does get you though is no lamp drop off... though which is easily made up for... and some more stability in image but I think be hard time justifying on lamp replacements ! 

 

49 minutes ago, 007orac said:

Because I liked the picture of the JVC X9 I was looking at is latest reincarnation the JVC  X9900   .   It has had good reviews but its not native 4K machine but a "Double your pixel for you money machine"  and its still a bulb machine.

 

Heard it say as I have not had the benefit of a side by side comparison but some say you cant tell a double you pixel machine from a true native 4K machine...…………….what is your thoughts on that sales pitch  ? 

yes very true...but keep in mind with these you can achieve around 3-3.5k which is about all you will realistically get. and in any case its not like you are going to setup an imax setup are you viewing from 1-1.5x screen heights to fully resolve 4k ? 

 

note this review below that sums up well in comparison, between jvc and native sony 4k

 

https://www.avforums.com/review/sony-vpl-vw360es-4k-sxrd-projector-review.14126

 

as they compare in its performance vs the 7900

 

"Performance

The VW360ES is an expensive projector in the home cinema market and of course the big reason for this is the fact that it uses native 4K panels. These are ported over from Sony’s professional cinema division and economies of scale do help in bringing the technology to the consumer marketplace, but there is still a cost associated and that reflects in the RRP here. Sony can quite rightly shout about the fact that they are the only native 4K game in town when it comes to projectors, but as we all know resolution is just one part of a far larger number of attributes that make a good quality image. We also happened to have the JVC DLA-X7900 projector turn up for review while we were testing the VW360ES and as such did a number of comparisons given the similar specs but big difference in price. So let’s get the resolution argument out of the way first of all. During testing and from a normal seating distance there was very little in it when it came down to resolution on its own between the native 4K Sony and the E-Shift JVC. As you get closer to the screen it is a bit more obvious, but again it is not night and day. It is other image attributes such as black levels, shadow detail retrieval, gamma tracking, greyscale, colour accuracy and more, which make for an excellent projected image. "

 

and ultimately as they sum up vs the alternatives,

 

"What are my alternatives?


Well the most obvious alternative, if you can do without the dynamic iris and lens memory functions but still want a native 4K projector, is the VW260ES, which has to be the better choice for £1,800 less than the VW360ES. If you want to keep all the features like manual and dynamic iris controls, with lens memory and add in wide colour, HDR, HLG, better black levels and shadow retrieval, HDMI inputs that are 18Gbps ready and will accept 4:4:4 60 4K signals along with a motorised lens cover and much more it has to be the £5,699 JVC DLA-X7900. It is not a native 4K projector but with E-Shift and at sensible viewing distances you will be hard pushed to see the resolution differences over and above the other attributes like a better black performance and shadow detail retrieval. It's also £1300 cheaper and is available in white and black finishes to match those available on the Sony. Although, if you are happy to lose the filter and lens cover, the £3,999 DLA-X5900 should also be on your demo list."

 

49 minutes ago, 007orac said:

Staying with JVC they got a native 4K machine the JVC Z1...……...but hells bells it forty grand   !  !  !

it is that for good reason... and a great bit of cost is not just the laser but the optics ! these cost what they are for good reason ! 

 

49 minutes ago, 007orac said:

And even if I robbed a bank there is the fact the my current JVC has not been a reliable machine which kind of puts you off..

please dont be put off by that. I owned my x35 for some years and was solid as has been the x7000 have owned now as well few years. as mentioned the jvcs are pretty solid past the early probematic ones like the ones you own

49 minutes ago, 007orac said:

Also looking at and also bloody expensive...…...but not as bad a the JVC Z1 is Sony's  VPL-VW760ES   .   It also has had good reviews as with the Z1...…….but apparently the blacks are not as black as my present JVC but it is however a true native 4K machine

its good that sony has squeezed in a laser but price is still quite a but at over $20k. they have still stuck with the same optics though as the bottom models. which is limitations for these machines I believe to really deliver the gains for 4k nad why comparing with the JVCs as per the review there is really nothing in it. Though I do think Sony's reality/detail creation, detail enhancement system will appeal to some. But on the sonys if you want a sony with the top optics they havent unfortunately replaced their awesome 1100ES that came with the ARC-F all glass optics. if wanting a sony with top optics you need to spend even more than the jvc at $60k +

 

look unless have the money to burn Id say go check out a well setup X9900 Id be suprised if not impressed. it costs a fraction of the sonys will deliver 3-3.5k which is about what there is to deliver and you wont be spending on things like lasers which lets face it are still a bit cutting edge. and a good reason they cost what they are. plus similarly we are only in early days of uhd still id be reluctant to spend up too much at this stage.... unless you are the kind to regularly change over (some or shall we say many dont mind) :)

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Call me bias because i own the JVC Z1 , so take my opinion as just that.

 

I HAVE had experience with both the  the Sony 760ES and the Sony 5000ES.  I had the Sony 760ES on loan from a friend in my theatre room for approx 3 weeks to run some comparisons.  I have demoed the 5000ES elsewhere in a private theatre.

 

My opinion is the Z1 comes out on top in all aspects compared to the 2 Sony,s , the 760ES is NOT in the same league as the Z1 ....and ONLY one aspect of the 5000ES that trumps the Z1...."Sheer Brightness" ...

 

The optics on the Z1 are just "Stunning" the image is just super stable and pin sharp..... Contrast, regardless of what you read, it is rivalling the E-Shift series and sometimes exceeding them in real world viewing. I have put the Z1 against both X9500 and X9900 on several occasions...... NOT once has the Z1 looked to be "lacking" contrast performance in relation to the "2" E-Shift units!

 

I came from several E-Shift JVC,s X5000, X7000, X9500, X9900.... 

 

If you have the coin, its a stunning  projector!:)

 

 

DSC_0208.JPG

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20 minutes ago, wooferocau said:

Call me bias because i own the JVC Z1 , so take my opinion as just that.

 

I HAVE had experience with both the  the Sony 760ES and the Sony 5000ES.  I had the Sony 760ES on loan from a friend in my theatre room for approx 3 weeks to run some comparisons.  I have demoed the 5000ES elsewhere in a private theatre.

 

My opinion is the Z1 comes out on top in all aspects compared to the 2 Sony,s , the 760ES is NOT in the same league as the Z1 ....and ONLY one aspect of the 5000ES that trumps the Z1...."Sheer Brightness" ...

 

The optics on the Z1 are just "Stunning" the image is just super stable and pin sharp..... Contrast, regardless of what you read, it is rivalling the E-Shift series and sometimes exceeding them in real world viewing. I have put the Z1 against both X9500 and X9900 on several occasions...... NOT once has the Z1 looked to be "lacking" contrast performance in relation to the "2" E-Shift units!

 

I came from several E-Shift JVC,s X5000, X7000, X9500, X9900.... 

 

If you have the coin, its a stunning  projector!:)

 

 

DSC_0208.JPG

Woofer Post a pic of the lens cap between the x5000 and z1 ... will give op some idea of difference in optics between the two ! I am no doubt you are impressed !!!

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I thought you’d do the dundee ... that’s not a lens cap ! 

 

..... that’s a lens cap :D

 

 

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On 10/7/2018 at 5:14 PM, 007orac said:

 

 

Specially if you have lived for some time with the Sony VPL  VW760ES

 

Your thoughts are most welcome guys.

 

Cheers

 

Paul 

 

No point comparing all the  projectors  with laser light engines  in the world against each other unless they all are seriously under consideration for purchase within your price range.  For example, I would have definitely have bought a JVC Z1 had my budget gone that far but I bought a Sony 760ES and am delighted with it.  All the comparisons between the 760 ES and projectors costing $15- 40K more are not relevant if you are not actually prepared to lay out the cash for them.  What was relevant to me, was the performance compared to other PJ's that were  within my target price range, which were the bulb based projectors from Sony and JVC.  

 

The 760ES is a class act and is noticeably sharper with better colours , greater stability and and better motion than the JVC X9900, and so much better contrast than the lesser Sony machines.    There are definite  differences in resolution using the 4k panels - very big with 4K material but still noticeably sharper with 1080p material.  The differences are more noticeable the larger the screen size.   Laser light engine colours and light evenness are something to behold .   The 760ES is the quantum leap I was looking  over my Sharp XVZ-20000

 

I couldn't get used to E-shift.   DLP knockers are quick to point out RBE but remain silent on the E-shift wobble which is a bigger problem (for me anyway).   The picture is not as stable coming from a single chip DLP or laser 4k machine and I was constantly reminded that i was living with a compromise.Turning off eshift with 1080p material helped but resolution while  very good, was probably not up to the standard I was used to.   But JVC  E-shift gives you the best black levels of any other projector which, lets face it, is the real reason why they are so popular, not their pseudo 4k portrayal.  Still, at their price point, they are still the ones to beat I think - I bought an X9900 over equivalent Sony purely due to contrast considerations.  However, the 760ES  has so much more on offer and although the black levels still aren't up to JVC's e-shift level ( no other projector is) , contrast is outstanding nevertheless. 

 

 

 

Edited by Tasso

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On 10/07/2018 at 7:14 PM, 007orac said:

Your thoughts are most welcome guys.

Your fear of lamps is not rational mate, modern lamps last so long its not an issue at all so for forget about it. The extra cost of a laser light source will never be recovered in savings on lamps, not even remotely close.

 

Just because you had a few issues with your first gen X series does not mean current JVC projectors are any less reliable then other brands, far from it, and the long term reliability of laser projectors is unknown.

 

As for visible "resolution" differences between E-Shift and "true" 4K, without side by side comparison you will never be aware of any. Image sharpness and visible resolution is dominated by digital sharpening not pixels.

Sony projectors cheat and use sharpening all the time, even when it is turned "off" by the user. They also can't resolve "4K" without hacking the service menu and potentially invalidating the warranty due to convergence correction rubbish used to hide inherent convergence errors.

Sonys "Reality Creation" sharpening system is liked by many and may be preferred over what JVC provides, but for best performance external upscaling and sharpening systems are the way to go.

 

Your old X9 doesn't have the dynamic iris system of the current models and the newer X series models are much brighter, which is a combination that works very well most of the time. In some scenes of some movies the iris can be seen operating which I find distracting so I turn the dynamic iris off for those titles. Even with the iris locked full open contrast is going to be more than double that of the Sony laser based projectors but its still only a fraction of what I am looking for. The notion that JVC X9xxx projector blacks being "black" is farcical, they are not even close as far as I am concerned. I certainly wouldn't use the term "outstanding" to describe JVC X9xxx blacks and contrast so significantly worse isn't an option as far as I am concerned, but thats just me.

The laser based projectors don't use an iris system, just dimming of the laser light source in dark scenes which doesn't actually improve contrast at all, it just makes the whole picture dimmer. Native contrast of the Sony (when new) is not as good as an old JVC X3, although the laser dimming system helps blacks in dark scenes.  If you find the dimming distracting and turn it off you are left with a black level MUCH higher then your old X9 due to low native contrast in combination with a very bright light source. Some may find the compromises acceptable, others not.

 

As for one projector having "better" colour than another, after proper calibration there is going to be stuff all in it. Without direct comparison you will never know and calibration makes more difference then the projector.

There is a problem with narrow band primary colours in that they can cause different people to perceive colours differently even when they measure the same with a colour meter. This is not a good thing as accurate calibration becomes imposible as its viewer dependant. Lamp based projectors don't have that problem.

 

I have never been bothered by image stability issues with lamp based projectors and the same goes for E-Shift at my viewing distance, its therefore not on my "things to fix list", contrast and black levels are. Thats not to say that others are not affected by one or both, its a personal thing. 

 

A point worth mentioning about Sony SXRD based projectors, including the 4K models, is that they have always suffered from a drop in native contrast over time. After as little as a year contrast can drop in half, black level double and gamma go way out, which is a MAJOR and unforgivable issue as far as I am concerned. Its not a usage thing either as the degradation seems to occur even if the projector is not used and continues as time passes.

The top of the line VW5000ES that sells for around $90K is still affected so I would be very confident the lesser models are as well. Its astonishing that Sony has been unable to eliminate this problem even though it has been around since the very first SXRD projector.  JVC's DILA technology is quite different and does not suffer from this issue.

 

As are as I am concerned Sony projectors are unsuitable for purpose due to the degradation issues and I would never consider one until I could be guaranteed the problems have been completely fixed. Its anyones guess how long that will take, if ever.

 

I no doubt comes across as anti Sony but I have good bloody reason. I'm an ex Sony owner that was affected by this problem, plus others, and the issues have not gone away. Do some reading here:

 

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2247282-sony-sxrd-degradation-thread-effects-all-current-sony-sxrd-1080p-4k-panels.html

 

I agree there is no point in looking at projectors that are way out of your price range, and you would likely be very happy with a JVC or a Sony (when new). I think it would be wise to carfully analyse what aspects of performance are most important to you and buy on that basis. Don't get hung up on lasers and pixels, its counter productive.

 

Edited by Owen

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Contrast is king. JVC is and always will be the king. Eshift or not, I see no difference, the Eshift is just THAT good.

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Well I bought JVC  in part  due to the  rumours and  innuendo  being spread  about other brands  ( JVC fanbois at work !)  and found that  the build up was grossly misleading - in terms of my expectations anyway.  

 

Resolution - having had a top flight 1080P single chip DLP projector (with a high quality lens by Minolta), the JVC  resolution  was not an improvement despite being 10 years newer.    4K was better but  the e-shift wobble is annoying as hell.  Some might not notice,  it but live with something better for a while and it becomes unmistakeable.  Sony 4k  is miles ahead   on all material - no comparison there.   This isn't to say that you cant be happy with Eshift , but it depends if you want "good enough" or the best. 

 

Movement/Motion  - JVC  images  look juddery compared to Sony 760ES.   Both have  controls to adjust motion but Sony does it way better.   The result is a more immersive  and enjoyable experience , which is the ultimate aim of the exercise.   This is not discussed much because I dont think many people have actually witnessed the differences.  

 

Contrast -   If buying a bulb based PJ only , JVC Eshift  is streets ahead  for sure.   It is not streets ahead of Sony 760Es and for the vast majority of viewing you wouldnt pick it.   The old tech Eshift panels  are  both a strength and weakness for JVC.   They  do give the best contrast of any PJ but they also give crappier resolution and stability compared to the true 4K panels from both JVC and Sony.    With 4K releases  coming through thick and fast these days, the format is here to stay.   I use a 140" OZ Theatre cinemascope screen and the extra resolution of true 4K panels with 4K material is clearly visible - particularly as you  use auto-zoom  to fill the screen.   

 

laser Vs Bulb -  more even light across the screen,  doesn't dim like globes ,  better colours , fast startup and shutdown,   etc etc etc - no one would actually specify a bulb over laser  if they were the same price.  I don't know what the future path for projectors would be , but I can't see it being globes for the better projectors. 

 

I only raise these issues because the question was asked about the 760 ES so the direct comparisons are in that context.    They are in completely different price brackets however - normally discussions would revolve around similarly priced projectors.   

Edited by Tasso

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