Canare 4S11 Cable

[christopher]

Does anyone know the best place to source 4S11 in Australia ? I need about 35 Meters for some long runs in my theatre room.

thanks

[mcb]

I have previously purchased this cable from Cliff - http://www.cliff.com.au/products/Cables/speakercable.htm

[christopher]

Thankyou

Before I go ahead and purchase, Any feedback to using Canare 4S11 for 12M runs to my Paradigm 9se. One cable per channel so will be joining the two together for 11AWG

[Bill125812]

Great cable.   And for that run should work very well.  

 

I use it myself   There are 4 wires in each cable.  Use 2 twisted together into each terminal.  

 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Bill125812

[A9X]

On 07/07/2018 at 1:40 PM, christopher said:

Any feedback to using Canare 4S11

It's great cable, and I've used a ton of it over the years. The only negative to it, is it doesn't have a boutique name nor BS engineering claims with which to bamboozle your audiophile friends.

Swamp in Canberra (such an appropriate name) usually carry it but it's not listed. Might be worth a call.

Heathen that I am, I'll offer an even cheaper solution. 13AWG

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 07/07/2018 at 1:25 PM, christopher said:

Does anyone know the best place to source 4S11 in Australia ? I need about 35 Meters for some long runs in my theatre room.

thanks

What is the longest run in your system? While the Canare exhibits a usefully lower inductance than ANY 'figure 8' type of cable, it may still be too high for your system. That would depend on the (measured) impedance CURVE of your speakers (not the manufacturer's published number) and the length of the run/s. 

 

Here are some comparisons:

 

Canare 4S11:

Inductance - 0.36uH/m

Resistance - 0.9 Ohms/100m

 

Belden 8477 (figure 8 style cable):

Inductance - 0.84uH/m

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

Goertz MI-1:

Inductance - 0.012uH/m (!!!!)

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

RG213/U:

Inductance - 0.23uH/m

Resistance - 1.7 Ohms/100m

 

The Canare would appear to be a pretty decent choice, though, when using difficult speakers and long runs, I would suggest the RG213/U as an economic, but slightly inconvenient cable to terminate, alternative. 

 

As can be seen, any of the above is a superior choice to a 'figure 8' (ANY figure 8 ) style cable, like the Belden. Goertz MI-1 is still one of the best, but at quite a high cost. 

 

[christopher]

Longest run is 12m and speakers are paradigm 9se
Fairly efficient speakers.

[A9X]

6 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Goertz MI-1:

Inductance - 0.012uH/m (!!!!)

Which comes at the cost of very high capacitance, something I'd be far more concerned about with a 12m run than a slight softening of the top end.

 

 

[christopher]

Ok, I went ahead and got the 4s11 from cliff electronics. Great price and service and turned up overnight. So now I just need decide on termination. I would prefer banana plugs either solder or crimped, that will accept the 11awg of the Canare. Anyone know where I can get some? Don’t want the cheap rubbish from jaycar etc or the high priced brand name stuff for hundreds. Locally would be preferred if someone can help please.

[Listener]

I use these to terminate my 4s11 cable: -

https://www.avaustralia.com.au/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-set-of-8/

 

 

Excellent in all ways, come in gold plated as shown or silver [which I prefer] as in the link.

 

Steven.

 

P.S  Cliff Electronics are a good bunch, get all my stuff from them, very good service.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Listener
Additional text.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 09/07/2018 at 6:11 PM, A9X said:

Which comes at the cost of very high capacitance, something I'd be far more concerned about with a 12m run than a slight softening of the top end.

 

 

Not gonna happen. The output impedance of any practical amplifier negates such an effect. Capacitance of speaker cables is, for the most part, irrelevant. Inductance and resistance are the only parameters of any significance, UNLESS a very poorly designed amplifier is being used.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[christopher]

I use these to terminate my 4s11 cable: -
https://www.avaustralia.com.au/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-set-of-8/
 

 
Excellent in all ways, come in gold plated as shown or silver [which I prefer] as in the link.
 
Steven.
 
P.S  Cliff Electronics are a good bunch, get all my stuff from them, very good service.
 

Do you think the set screws make good enough contact? Why do they call it cold welding, that can only Be obtained by high pressure crimping.

[Listener]

The screws make very good contact, I have had no problems with them....unlike the cheap ones from EBay or Selby which come loose and are a waste of money.

 

The marketing blurb is what it is, some of it is factual, some of it is fanciful, I suggest you mentally redact anything you think is of the second kind.

 

Steven.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

18 minutes ago, christopher said:

Do you think the set screws make good enough contact? Why do they call it cold welding, that can only Be obtained by high pressure crimping.

This is one of the best banana connectors money can buy:

 

http://au.element14.com/multicomp/25-412-2/banana-plug-24a-4mm-free-black/dp/1698994

 

Not gold plated, but that doesn't matter with speaker connections. Solder only, of course. Crimp or solder speaker connectors only.

 

Another excellent connector:

 

http://au.element14.com/multicomp/25-413-2/plug-24a-4mm-cable-black/dp/1698964

 

And for a range of the very best available, these are all silver plated (silver is superior to gold in every sense):

 

http://au.element14.com/w/c/test-measurement/test-connectors-ic-clips/banana-plugs-jacks?gender=plug&contact-plating=silver-plated-contacts

 

[A9X]

1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Not gonna happen. The output impedance of any practical amplifier negates such an effect.

Nope. The capacitive loading will have an effect on the dominant pole in the feedback loop and potentially cause oscillation.

[andyr]

2 hours ago, Listener said:

I use these to terminate my 4s11 cable: -

https://www.avaustralia.com.au/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-set-of-8/

 

 

Excellent in all ways, come in gold plated as shown or silver [which I prefer] as in the link.

 

Steven.

 

I agree those springy, split cylindrical BPs are the best, in terms of maximum contact with the inside of the banana socket barrel ... but you don't have to buy the Audioquest versions.

 

Multi-Contact actually make them - and RS Components sell them in packs of 5.  Solder connection only, though.

 

Andy

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, A9X said:

Nope. The capacitive loading will have an effect on the dominant pole in the feedback loop and potentially cause oscillation.

Only if the amp has been poorly designed. VERY poorly designed. 

 

A 10 Metre run of Goertz MI-1 exhibits a parallel capacitance of approximately 1.5 X 10-8 Farad. By comparison, a Martin Logan CLS exhibits approximately 4 X 10-6 Farad. 

 

There are very few amplifiers made that cannot cope with such a small capacitance across the output. 

 

The real problem is that SOME amplifiers cannot operate with highly capacitive loads, unless there is significant inductance in the speaker lines. 

[christopher]

Just to follow up, hooked up the canare 12m runs just bare wire for now. Sounds fantastic. Probably due to last stuff being rubbish, cheap fig8 cable from jb probably plated tin. Much more dynamic, seems clearer. Very happy thanks for all the help

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, christopher said:

Just to follow up, hooked up the canare 12m runs just bare wire for now. Sounds fantastic. Probably due to last stuff being rubbish, cheap fig8 cable from jb probably plated tin. Much more dynamic, seems clearer. Very happy thanks for all the help

It's clearer because you are running lower inductance cables. 

[BioBrian]

Cliff also have a Van Damme 4 x 2.5 mm2 Star Quad. Anybody have comment on it?

[Steffen]

On 09/07/2018 at 7:11 AM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

What is the longest run in your system? While the Canare exhibits a usefully lower inductance than ANY 'figure 8' type of cable, it may still be too high for your system. That would depend on the (measured) impedance CURVE of your speakers (not the manufacturer's published number) and the length of the run/s. 

 

Here are some comparisons:

 

Canare 4S11:

Inductance - 0.36uH/m

Resistance - 0.9 Ohms/100m

 

Belden 8477 (figure 8 style cable):

Inductance - 0.84uH/m

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

Goertz MI-1:

Inductance - 0.012uH/m (!!!!)

Resistance - 1.2 Ohms/100m

 

RG213/U:

Inductance - 0.23uH/m

Resistance - 1.7 Ohms/100m

 

The Canare would appear to be a pretty decent choice, though, when using difficult speakers and long runs, I would suggest the RG213/U as an economic, but slightly inconvenient cable to terminate, alternative. 

 

As can be seen, any of the above is a superior choice to a 'figure 8' (ANY figure 8 ) style cable, like the Belden. Goertz MI-1 is still one of the best, but at quite a high cost. 

 

Interesting. I just measured my home-brew speaker cable, it comes in at about 0.08µH/m and about 13pF/m. I made it from 5 lengths of Cat6 cable (20 twisted pairs), braided together Kumihimo-style. The individual leads in the Cat-6 cable are about 0.25mm2 (23AWG), so the combined cross section is about 5mm2 (10AWG). This is probably overkill for a 2.4m run into 11 Ohm speakers, but it was fun to make

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 hours ago, Steffen said:

Interesting. I just measured my home-brew speaker cable, it comes in at about 0.08µH/m and about 13pF/m. I made it from 5 lengths of Cat6 cable (20 twisted pairs), braided together Kumihimo-style. The individual leads in the Cat-6 cable are about 0.25mm2 (23AWG), so the combined cross section is about 5mm2 (10AWG). This is probably overkill for a 2.4m run into 11 Ohm speakers, but it was fun to make

 

Your idea of fun and mine are obviously quite different.

[magnarc]

On 07/07/2018 at 1:31 PM, mcb said:

I have previously purchased this cable from Cliff - http://www.cliff.com.au/products/Cables/speakercable.htm

Cliff are really good to buy from and the pricing is good, better than pennelcom online.

[BioBrian]

On 13/07/2018 at 12:05 AM, BioBrian said:

Cliff also have a Van Damme 4 x 2.5 mm2 Star Quad. Anybody have comment on it?

"No" would seem to be the answer!

 

I can't find inductance figures for this (Van Damme Tour Grade 4-core, Part number 268-542-000) so don't know if it compares with the Canare. It has larger cross-section, so may suit my speaker-amp combination.

 

Amp is Parasound A 21 (250W/8 Ohm), speakers are 92? dB sensitivity 4-way DIY, min impedance about 3.5 Ohms.

 

Not sure if the Van Damme qualifies as 'star quad' at all (benefiting from connecting crossed cores).

 

Also wondering about appropriate gauge for this setup. Max cable length needs to be about 6m. (There's a 4mm version, not so available here in Oz).

 

(Apologies for not being relevant to the OP, but may be of interest generally).

[A9X]

^^ 2.5mm@ is ~13AWG, so 2 in parallel is ~ 10AWG. This is more than adequate. See here.