Lee Adams Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) Hi, I am new here and I have a small issue so I would appreciate some feedback. For several years I owned a pair of Audio vector M2 speakers and I loved them. Recently a pair of Mi3 Signature in rosewood came up on EBay in immaculate condition in original boxes for £1,000 and I purchased them. My dilemma is that some recordings sound awesome and much more detailed than the M2s but othes sound not so good, almost harsh, a bit thin and lacking bass. Is this because they are more accurately reproducing the recordings whereas the M2s were flattering and hiding the imperfections that are now so obvious with the Mi3 signatures? Most of the time I love them, but sometimes I hate them as they just don't sound as good as the M2s on certain recordings. Is this normal? I have even considered selling them again and but some PMCs... but would this be a mistake and just accept that some recordings won't sound as good as they did. I play Rock, and acoustic music (They sound best on acoustic generally) on vinyl and CD. No classical music. My equipment is.. TT. Garrard 401 in skeletal plinth, SME 3009s2 imp arm with Shure V15vxmr fitted with a crystal cantilever and Paratrace diamond. Trichord Dino phono preamp. CD. Arcam Alpha 8se Amp. Quad 99 preamp / 909 power amp. Comments, observations and suggestions welcome please. Edited July 4, 2018 by Lee Adams Add punctuation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padre_power Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Lee Sometimes equipment with greater resolution will highlight weaknesses in the rest of the equipment but more me than likely highlight the weakness in the recording and mastering. Not hardware but software. That's why you see so many with ultra hifi systems constantly looking for Special LP's and CD's. All the arguments re sound, eg LP sounds better than CD, is meaningless without looking at the effort made during the recording process. I have a perfectly good turntable and cartridge yet many of my LP's sound like sh.. while some CD are just fantastic as are some LP. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Agree with@padre_power , it's also why many audophiles have various components to swap around to suit their listening moods 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) Thank you for the comments gents. I did quite a lot of listening this evening to both CD and vinyl. It sounds to me like these speakers have a presence "hump" in the response somewhere around the vocal frequency range, which seems very odd as none of the reviews mention this. In fact all the reviews rave about them, how smooth and natural they sound and they received "best buy 5 stars" from trusted reviewers like hi-fi sound magazine. User reports are much the same... I am beginning to wonder if it's just me! The Quad is a very smooth sounding amp, the Arcam CD is a great, natural sounding player and the Shure V15vxmr cartridge is a trusted old friend, also with a good reputation and synergy with the SME arm... so I don't think the hardware the problem. I fully understand that recordings and pressings vary, it's just that when I play something that always sounded great on the cheaper M2 model, it is very disappointing. A few do sound better, but it's about a 50/50 split. I am not a great believer in speaker cables making much difference to the tonal quality, providing of course they are of "Good quality" and I am using the same Silver link "Aero" bi-wire cables as I used on the M2. Maybe it's worth experimenting with this, but my gut feeling tells me not to waste money on "snake oil" theories. I guess I will have to give it time and see if I grow to like them, but at the moment I feel like selling them and buying the PMCs... or going back to my M2s. I will add that I have a broadcast radio studio in my home (I produce high quality music radio programmes for various networks) and I have a pair of Genelec 8050 powered monitors which are very accurate and detailed, so I get that recording standards vary. But what I am experiencing with these audiovector speakers is a constant presence peak which either suits a particular recording or not, rather than a variance in recording quality. Maybe I need to look at room acoustics as well, although I am at a loss to understand why the old speakers didn't suffer with a similar problem in the same room. I hate being an audiophile sometimes! Edited July 5, 2018 by Lee Adams Adding information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 @Lee Adams I read your review on the M2 in sep4 2007, you stated" i really can't see why i will ever buy another pair of speakers", what happened? Have just done some reading on the Mi3 signatures, comments like, " a larger gap in the good and not so good sounding recordings" and " every criticism i had during my evaluation was eventually found to be a fault of a component or cable" is exactly what you are saying apart from the latter. I have owned a pair of Monitor Audio RS6 since 2006, listened to many better speakers but i love my rs6's. Always wanted to hear PMC's but when i did, very disappointed($6000), listened to GoldenEar Triton 2 for half the price on the same system and was completly blown away, magnificent. People may say that different cables sound different is snakeoil, but try for yourself, everyone has their own opinion cheers wen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximus Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 @Lee Adams I had a pair of the bookshelfs, very metallic sounding on many recordings, fabulous on good ones. At the end of the day it was all too much. Why not try something from the new Monitor Audio Silver range or even a pair of Legend Kamas, they won't make your ears bleed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, wen said: @Lee Adams I read your review on the M2 in sep4 2007, you stated" i really can't see why i will ever buy another pair of speakers", what happened? Have just done some reading on the Mi3 signatures, comments like, " a larger gap in the good and not so good sounding recordings" and " every criticism i had during my evaluation was eventually found to be a fault of a component or cable" is exactly what you are saying apart from the latter. I have owned a pair of Monitor Audio RS6 since 2006, listened to many better speakers but i love my rs6's. Always wanted to hear PMC's but when i did, very disappointed($6000), listened to GoldenEar Triton 2 for half the price on the same system and was completly blown away, magnificent. People may say that different cables sound different is snakeoil, but try for yourself, everyone has their own opinion cheers wen Wen ... I still love the M2... what happened was this pair of M3 signature jumped out at me when I was cruising eBay! It was because I love the M2 so much I decided to buy their Big Brother without even listening to them first, on the basis that they must be even better. Yes I did read that Review but as you say he put it down to component or cable issues. Unfortunately I don't have the budget available to do much experimentation. I may however try some different speaker cables if I can talk my local friendly hi-fi shop into loaning me a pair. Maybe there is such a thing as snake-oil I just need to open my mind to the possibility My only reason for considering the PMC is that I heard some in my local hi-fi store a while back when I was helping a friend choose an amplifier and was very impressed by the clarity and smoothness of the top end. I didn't buy them because they were out of my budget and I was already happy with my M2. Edited July 5, 2018 by Lee Adams Adding information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, maximus said: @Lee Adams I had a pair of the bookshelfs, very metallic sounding on many recordings, fabulous on good ones. At the end of the day it was all too much. Why not try something from the new Monitor Audio Silver range or even a pair of Legend Kamas, they won't make your ears bleed. Unfortunately my budget restricts me to buying second hand. I picked these speakers up for £1,000, they were almost £4000 when new. Buying second hand means that I don't have the opportunity to audition them, or return them if I don't like them. The M2 was different because I bought them as an ex demonstration pair from a dealer and I did listen to them first. I bought the M3 signature because I loved the M2 Edited July 5, 2018 by Lee Adams Correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetiman Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Welcome mate enjoy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) Ok ok... I now believe in snake oil. Against what I believed was my better judgement I took advice from you and I went and borrowed some Supra speaker cables this morning from my local hi-fi dealer. The difference was apparent immediately and tracks that previously sounded harsh now sound nicely balanced. The dealer was kind enough to loan them to me on sale or return... suffice to say I will not be returning them! Thank you to everyone for your input you were all spot on the money as yes poor recordings do sound worse than they did before but that presence "hump" has gone. Thank you everyone for your help and I am now a convert loudspeaker cables really do make a difference! Edited July 5, 2018 by Lee Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 AH! now that we have got your attention, what about your other cables, in another thread( Integrated Amps: An Addicts Guide Part, The Third. page 18) i made the comment that interconnect cables are the tone controls of the 70's and 80's. My system is a secondhand rega planar 2 (Circa 70's)moth arm, ortofon 2m bronze, creek destiny CD, exposure 2010(circa 2002), Monitor audio RS6 (2005), mission(QED) speaker cables (Circa 1983). Interconnect between the cd and amp is a MIT CVT terminator 2ic(Circa 2009). Over all sounds brilliant, but like you when you get a poor recording, its lousy.the only component i bought on proper audition is the speakers, you get lucky especially with a site like this and the internet as a resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 1 minute ago, wen said: AH! now that we have got your attention, what about your other cables, in another thread( Integrated Amps: An Addicts Guide Part, The Third. page 18) i made the comment that interconnect cables are the tone controls of the 70's and 80's. My system is a secondhand rega planar 2 (Circa 70's)moth arm, ortofon 2m bronze, creek destiny CD, exposure 2010(circa 2002), Monitor audio RS6 (2005), mission(QED) speaker cables (Circa 1983). Interconnect between the cd and amp is a MIT CVT terminator 2ic(Circa 2009). Over all sounds brilliant, but like you when you get a poor recording, its lousy.the only component i bought on proper audition is the speakers, you get lucky especially with a site like this and the internet as a resource. I had already taken care of that. Van-den-hul 102 throughout. Even the SME standard cable connector has been replaced with gold RCA connectors and VDH cables to and from the Trichord Phono pre.. The only cable that is different is from the Quad pre to Power amp which is Supra with Neutrik gold RCA plugs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Greetings did any of ^^^ solve anything or complicate matters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 6, 2018 Author Share Posted July 6, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, djb said: Greetings did any of ^^^ solve anything or complicate matters? Hi, solved. I purchased a set of Supra screened speaker cables and the speakers now sound fantastic. I confess I still do not understand why and I was very sceptical before I tried them... but I can't argue with the results. The harshness of mid-range that has been bugging me for over a week since I bought these loudspeakers has disappeared. There is more punch in the bottom end and the high frequencies have opened up beautifully. The only thing I have changed is the cables so there is no other explanation. Cheers. Edited July 6, 2018 by Lee Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 you are going to dislike me, but, maybe matching Supra interconnects with the rest of your system will finalise the audiophilia, van den hul use silver in their cables, my opinion is this is what causes harshness in the higher frequencies, when i have mentioned this before others have said the oppisite( their opinion), i bought two cables with the refund of which one i didn't like, one copper, one silver at more than twice the price, when i returned the silver you can imagine the reaction of the salesperson, if your dealer can do you the same deal on the interconnects, there will never be any doubt about an end point with you system, for now, cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, wen said: you are going to dislike me, but, maybe matching Supra interconnects with the rest of your system will finalise the audiophilia, van den hul use silver in their cables, my opinion is this is what causes harshness in the higher frequencies, when i have mentioned this before others have said the oppisite( their opinion), i bought two cables with the refund of which one i didn't like, one copper, one silver at more than twice the price, when i returned the silver you can imagine the reaction of the salesperson, if your dealer can do you the same deal on the interconnects, there will never be any doubt about an end point with you system, for now, cheers Hi Wen. I have been using these van den hul 102 interconnects for some years, they were not a recent purchase. The harshness in the system only started when I purchased the Mi3 signatures last week. This is why I am at a loss to understand why these new cables cured the problem. The Old speaker cables were Silverlink aero and they sounded great on the M2 speakers I used previously, not at all harsh. I can only conclude that the new speakers are presenting a different load to the amplifier and for some reason the cables were causing a mismatch with the quad 909. Somebody mentioned previously about damping Factor.. at this point I am out of my depth lol! The system is singing sweetly now. If the harshness was still there I would take your advice and change the interconnects to Supra. I might ask the dealer if I can borrow a pair of Supra interconnects just out of curiosity to see if they make any difference. As good as the system sounds now I know from previous experience that a little experimentation is never a bad thing. Thank you for your help on this it's all good advice and a learning curve. Edited July 7, 2018 by Lee Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 you never stop learning, i'm happy to hear of your outcome, enjoy your music, cheers wen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Adams Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, wen said: you never stop learning, i'm happy to hear of your outcome, enjoy your music, cheers wen Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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