kelossus Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Looking at buying a property to live in and of course a good listening room separate to the living area is preferable. I have found a property that ticks all the boxes but like most ground floor rumpus rooms I have seen the ceilings are a little low. Please see the below pictures of the rooms and also a list of my potential concerns which may or may not be real. The rough dimensions are 6.4 x 5.6 x 2.3 1. The ceiling height is 2.3m, I am half tempted to rip the gyprock ceiling off to get some extra height but then I have the joists and joist cavities to deal with. This may sound like a crazy idea and completely redundant. 2. The room is stick framed but the exterior of the house looks like iron/tin cladding. Could this potentially cause any issues particularly with low frequency resonances?? The last picture of the garage shows the exterior cladding. 3. The 2 steel bearers which roughly divide the room into thirds. Will this be a major detriment or could this be tackled with diffusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunno77 Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I really have no idea but I had to.Hope it all goes well and it does sound good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Seriously, I would have to see it. If its only for the HiFi then I think you have a goer mate. Is the gyprock ceiling over those rafters and roofing the same as what I can see in the last photo? If so, I would get rid of it. You can dampen or brighten different parts of it and it should be easy to work with. Concrete floor is a bonus. This could be the beginning of something special if you have the money and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quark Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 A few thoughts: There's probably some plumbing and electrical under the gyprock ceiling that will be exposed if you remove it. You may get some rattles from the corrugated iron, but nothing that can't be fixed by some extra screws and if needed, bracing. I'd be surprised if the steel bearers cause any acoustic issues in the real world unless you have wall or ceiling speakers mounted nearby. The steel bearers could make it a little more complicated to roof mount a projector, but not a show stopper. You'll have lots of room to play with speaker placement - this is good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 Only for hifi, no plans for a HT setup at present. I like the idea of removing the gyprock ceiling and yes there would be electrical cabling underneath which I hope could be rerouted. I am not concerned with the removal of the ceiling lights and would consider lighting the room via wall mounted lighting. I think as a starter I may just put down some nice thick carpet and live with it for awhile. Then consider removing the gyprock. Would the exposed joists provide some sort of diffusion??? Also is 2.3m to the gyprock not too bad of a ceiling height? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quark Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I doubt that exposed joists would be sufficiently rough enough to give proper dispersion - I'd be more worried about multiple reflection/refraction points smearing the sound. 2.3m ceilings should be plenty with some decent carpet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Looks like a nice big room. 6 hours ago, kelossus said: 1. The ceiling height is 2.3m, I am half tempted to rip the gyprock ceiling off to get some extra height but then I have the joists and joist cavities to deal with. This may sound like a crazy idea and completely redundant. Yep, not necessary 6 hours ago, kelossus said: 2. The room is stick framed but the exterior of the house looks like iron/tin cladding. Could this potentially cause any issues particularly with low frequency resonances?? The last picture of the garage shows the exterior cladding. I doubt it, as long as there is no audible vibration (assume there is some sort of insulation or something in there). 6 hours ago, kelossus said: 3. The 2 steel bearers which roughly divide the room into thirds. Will this be a major detriment or could this be tackled with diffusion? No. Ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_F Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 2 hours ago, kelossus said: Would the exposed joists provide some sort of diffusion??? Also is 2.3m to the gyprock not too bad of a ceiling height? Haha who cares. I think they look great and would make an excellent visual feature, as they do in converted warehouse apartments. Personally at this stage I'd leave the ceiling as is, and a man cave should be MANLY!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantan Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Peter_F said: Haha who cares. I think they look great and would make an excellent visual feature, as they do in converted warehouse apartments. Personally at this stage I'd leave the ceiling as is, and a man cave should be MANLY!! Could not agree more Pete. Who cares indeed, just enjoy the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 Yes but enjoying the music is hard when you don't have a suitable room. Too be honest I have never really had a good room so I want to make sure I am not fighting an uphill battle from the get go. This will easily be the largest room I have ever had and my first on a slab. I will put a few thousand aside to recarpet and treat the room from the get go and play it by ear after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swervyn Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Not sure what is above this room? You may need to consider some sort of insulation between the floor joists if it wasn't done prior to plaster, that's if you end up pulling the sheets off. Might help with noise transfer through the floor, plus wonder if the walls were done too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, swervyn said: Not sure what is above this room? You may need to consider some sort of insulation between the floor joists if it wasn't done prior to plaster, that's if you end up pulling the sheets off. Might help with noise transfer through the floor, plus wonder if the walls were done too. That is an excellent question and one I will ask. Is it standard practice to insulate a room like this during the build? I know that doesn't guarantee it being done but am curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guru Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Lots of Windows and doors so an awkward layout that could be rectified by structural changes , 2.3 mtrs ain't that tall so it would want to be a great house upstairs. Any increase in height would be of benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter the Greek Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Nice. Big is gooood. Have you got a floorplan? Does that room sit adjacent to the garage? I assume it was a QLD'er of sorts and they've walled in the downstairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 51 minutes ago, guru said: Lots of Windows and doors so an awkward layout that could be rectified by structural changes , 2.3 mtrs ain't that tall so it would want to be a great house upstairs. Any increase in height would be of benefit. Behind those two doors on the back wall are storage rooms. I would consider removing the wall at some point to make the room larger. Upstairs it ticks all the boxes. Modern kitchen and bathroom and just clean all around. 15 minutes ago, Peter the Greek said: Nice. Big is gooood. Have you got a floorplan? Does that room sit adjacent to the garage? I assume it was a QLD'er of sorts and they've walled in the downstairs? No I don't have a floor plan. I just went there with a measuring tape to check the ceiling height and get some rough room dimensions. Not a QLDer, a little later. Circa 1970-80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugs Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 One thing I recall when my "sound room" was being constructed ( 6X4X2.4) brick walls, bare concrete floor and exposed ceiling joists?, I plugged in my stereo for a quick listen before the carpet and gyprock ceiling went in. The ceiling was done next, lined with fibreglass bats installed then the gyprock. I then dragged out the stereo out again and the difference was incredible. The sound was way worse after the ceiling was done. When the carpet and drapes and furniture was installed obviously things improved, finally I lined the ceiling with acoustic foam tiles. The thing is, the exposed ceiling had a BIG effect on the tone of the room, a lot more than I thought possible, maybe worth considering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 The room being downstairs and out of sight I have no problem covering the whole ceiling in 4" polymax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koputai Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 19 hours ago, kelossus said: Is it standard practice to insulate a room like this during the build? It is standard practice to NOT put insulation in such a cavity. It would only be installed if the person having the place built specifically asked for it to be done, which is rare. If it was put in back then (highly unlikely) then it won't be a sound absorbing type anyway, just thermal. Cheers, Jason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 It is standard practice to NOT put insulation in such a cavity. It would only be installed if the person having the place built specifically asked for it to be done, which is rare. If it was put in back then (highly unlikely) then it won't be a sound absorbing type anyway, just thermal. Cheers, Jason. Agreed it’s unlikely batts are in the ceiling cavity, but the properties of batts good for thermal insulation is the same for sound (size and gas flow resistivity)“Acoustic “ batts cost more because of marketing Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGeek Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 @DrSK - your up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 On 03/07/2018 at 9:11 AM, Bugs said: The thing is, the exposed ceiling had a BIG effect on the tone of the room, a lot more than I thought possible, maybe worth considering. Agree. It might be an idea to get rid of the gyprock ceiling and, as I said before, if the ceiling is bare like in the other photo, you can treat it as you want. Remember, if nakid, you can do what you want, so that room treatment would be an ongoing experiment that could be enjoyable. Rock on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 as others have said - nice big room for audio! On 02/07/2018 at 4:24 PM, kelossus said: I think as a starter I may just put down some nice thick carpet and live with it for awhile. I would run with this approach. I also wouldn't rip the ceiling out. As long as you don't have rattles, gyprock is a great material for achieving good "in room" bass, as it operates as a membrane trap, requiring less treatment inside the room. This applies to walls also. It's better if any gyprock has fluffy insulation above/behind it, but it will still absorb/transmit bass without the fluffy. You may be able to check for insulation through the light fittings (the usual cautions apply for 240V). Start with good carpet and underlay and go from there. Measure the room and see what it needs. If you're in Brisbane, and don't have a measurement rig, PM me. cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DrSK Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) On 04/07/2018 at 9:23 AM, AudioGeek said: @DrSK - your up Thanks mate! Plenty of good advice already, here is some other points. My room is similar in location under the house living space. For me this meant I wanted to make sure I could use it after the kids go to bed (luckily my wife is no issue as she is deaf and can’t hear anything with hearing aids out, my dream woman!). This was the most important aspect of having a room. I added a ceiling to control noise as the ceiling is a large surface area that can transmit a lot of sound upstairs. I hung a ceiling grid to decouple from the joists to give a 460mm gap to the floor, used a couple of layers of tontine insulation (nicer for overhead work than fibreglass) to control any standing waves in the gap and then put two layers of 16mm gyprock which when finished gave a 2.4m ceiling height. This was ample given other flanking paths. Without this my man cave would not have been useable due to conflict with my other half in the lounge above and nearby kids bedrooms. So if anything I’d be looking to beef the ceiling up rather than removing it. Each time you double the mass you’ll get about an extra 6dB of noise reduction, absorption is good for about 5dB min. A big air gap is where the easy win is and wooden joists over this sort of span guarantee that although no absorption in the gap can negate a lot of the benefit. Note one of the reasons I used the suspended grid is to decouple from the wooden joists, wooden floors have a bit of flex whereas two layers of 16mm gyprock doesnt so was worried about cracking in addition to acoustic isolation The main weakness in modern ceilings are downlights. There are some acoustic rated ones. Main thing is use LED to keep heat down and be careful about insulation fires. The tontine etc should do an ok job of dealing with some leakage into the airgap through downlights but it is a weakness. My end wall to the stairs is masonary and covered in gyrpock to seal any pin hole gaps. It would be about the same as two layers of standard gyprock on either side of studs with batts in between (just use thermal as acoustic is mostly marketing). Make sure any gaps at the head and foot of the wall are ceiled. Sound can go straight under a wall through small gaps betwen gyprock/slab/skirting boards. Watch out for power points etc, sound can go straight through, don’t put them back to back either side of a wall. The door to the stairs is solid core with perimeter seals and is the weak link. A double door would help like two joining hotel rooms but not really worth the hassle. The top of the stairs is the hallway to bedrooms and lounge where sound can travel given wooden floors etc. For me I find I like a listening level of around 75dBC on a slow time weighting with a bit of give or take. This gives me on most tracks a well balanced sound in terms of frequency content. At this level I mostly keep out of trouble with the family unless I’m watching a movie where LFE can set the floor above vibrating and aggrevate my wife in the couch while shes watching TV and cause my 2yo to hit the walls in the bedroom shouting stop. If you are not used to bigger rooms you may hear a few things until you get a bit of treatment or enough racks of drying washing in strategic places. It is big enough that the delay time between reflections off opposing walls can be audible as a very quick reptition off snare hits and bass hits. All this is stuff that can easily sorted with absorption or diffusion and a sign of a good sized room. I’d get some measurements of the room response before you go down this path. The room is rather square meaning your room modes may be a bit clustered as they will be similar on both the width snd length directions. But as above I’d focus first on making sure you can use it at a level you want to listen to music at without causing conflict with the family. Edited July 13, 2018 by DrSK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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