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egosbar

cooling fan for my onkyo is it needed

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ok gabe the little sonies a workout last night , nothing too loud but loud enough , after about five hours they started to sound crap i immediately turned of the amp , the amp was pretty cool in its new location so it was having no problems pushing the sound , i left it for about five minutes turned the music on again and played for another few hours without a problem

im not sure what speaker wire im running as it came with the surround sound system , looks pretty flimsy and has no negative positive on it either cable ,

can speaker wire cause this?

another thing a mate mentioned whether right or wrong im not sure but he said your better off running the volume from the souce (computer) at around 50 percent no more and then using the amps volume , i was running it at 100 percent would thhis have any effect

really giving me the shits now as i never had a problem for the last 10 years

it must be the amp but to happen after about the same playing time etc seems pretty strange

what tests should a tech do so i know what im talking about

Okay - you're going to need to go through basic process of elimination. When they sound like crap, get some other speakers and connect up - exactly the same way with exactly the same cable. Do they still sound like crap? If so you know it is your speakers. If not - change the cable. etc. etc. etc. You need to find where exactly the problem lies.

Yes - it can be frustrating, tedious and difficult, but you'll get there.

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http://www.djdeals.com/jblLSR4328P.htm

what about these , they have the look im after etc , im off to brisbane in a couple of weeks so ill have a chance to hit some hifi shops and take a listen

NO.

Have a look at the Mackies I posted in post #56.

You need PA speakers, not studio speakers. Studio speakers are designed for low-level monitoring of recordings in studios. They are NOT designed for parties, etc.

Amplified speakers are NOT all the same.

Edited by amey01

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why are powered speakers relatively cheap , i can pick up an amp and some speakers for around 600-1000 ,

For the same reason racing Commodores cost less than Rolls Royce or Mercedes Benz. You're not buying quality - you're buying raw power for a specialised purpose.

Edited by amey01

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im definitely considering pro speakers , got any recomendations for my budget say 1000-1500

i was going to go floor standers as mentioned , but the pro speakers that ive seen so far dont look that nice , so i will probably go smaller ones and mount them on the wall

piano black would go with my room

been looking for about an hour now and havent really found anything i like so far

pleasing to the eye is pretty important to me as they will be in my bar room

There are a lot of different options out there. It really depends on whether you want to fork out big bucks or not.

Unfortunately you're not going to find any piano gloss black pro PA style speakers - that kind of finish simply isn't rugged enough for pro use and gets marked too easily. If you want a more 'refined' cabinet finish, you will need to look at high powered, large woofered powered monitor-style speakers.

IMHO spending $2k+ on a set of brand-name powered PA speakers is overkill for occasional domestic use such as this. No doubt others will disagree, but each to their own. I'm gonna approach this from a budget, bang for buck approach (particularly as it is for occasional domestic/party use only):

{cue laughter and head shaking :) } Great bang for buck are the Behringer Truth B2031A active monitors with the 8.75" woofers. Nice looking, great sounding, and go surprisingly loud. Two pairs will fill a large domestic room with ample sound. They are about $500/pair. The B3031A's with the ribbon tweeters are slightly pricier (about $550/pair). With around 225WRMS per speaker, they have plenty of grunt and the ribbon versions look quite nice. They are about as good as you will get for a small form factor speaker that is powered and looks good. Two pairs would be preferable, but it depends on your room, whether you want decent stereo imaging etc.

I realise I am going against the grain in recommending these, however quite a few DJ buddies have used these as monitor speakers and then dragged them out for parties and I was astounded with how well they handled these duties. I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw/heard it in person.

B3031A with ribbons:

691230.jpg

B2031A with dome tweeters:

lg_behringer-b2031a.jpg

I've used some EXCELLENT powered subwoofer and speaker combos in the past for DJ gigs and you can get similar stuff quite cheaply these days. These kind of setups work extremely well indoors (or outdoors for that matter). Have you considered something like:

http://www.cannonsound.com.au/p/859784/motivity-as-900-15-inch-600w-sub-300w-satellites-active-powered-sub-wvariable-crossover-two-satellite-amps.html

and these:

http://www.cannonsound.com.au/p/859793/motivity-8-2-way-trap-speaker-cabinets-pair.html

for $999 plus delivery? The 15" sub includes the amp modules and a mixer. No need for external amplification. Mount the two 8" speakers up high as you suggested, and place the powered sub on the floor somewhere. Run the speaker cables, connect the built-in mixer to your existing source unit, and voila. It may not be the absolute last word in fidelity (something like the Truths will offer better sound quality) but I guarantee that the sub/satellite combo will sound far better than your existing setup, and you will never run out of juice in a domestic situation, that's for sure!

You can even score a pair of cheap powered 10" or 12" speakers that will most likely suffice eg.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Behringer-B210D-Active-200-Watt-2-Way-PA-Speaker-299-/270635452601?pt=AU_Musical_Instruments_Instruments&hash=item3f032148b9

BTW, active speakers aren't essential either. Subject to your room constraints, a single Biema W220i or W330i (under $350) and a pair of decent passive PA/pro speakers would do the job for under $1k and sound better than the Technics and Sonys.

Keep trawling the 'net and I'm sure you will find something that suits your needs.

BTW... I have absolutely NO preference for Behringer gear as such... a lot of it is junk, but the above powered speakers are an exception in my experience.

Edited by pete_mac

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Hmm... after checking the specs of your Onkyo and also the speakers you have previously/currently been using, I actually feel more comfortable in mentioning the B3031A and B2031A now! Your Onkyo is only a 65WRMS/ch amp, and the speakers are fairly average. Those Sony's are TINY speakers from a home-theatre-in-a-box setup. Here are the specs:

Speaker system Full range, magnetically shielded

Speaker units 5.5 × 11 cm (2 1/4 × 4 3/8 in.), cone type

Enclosure type Bass reflex

Rated impedance 8 ohms

Power handling capacity

Maximum input power: 110 watts



Sensitivity level 85 dB (1 W, 1 m)

Frequency range 120 Hz – 20,000 Hz


Dimensions (w/h/d) Approx. 85 × 152 × 112 mm (33/8 × 6 × 4 1/2 in.), including front grille

Mass Approx. 850 g (1 lb 14 oz) each

You can't expect cheap, tiny full range home theatre speakers to provide high output, nor last very long when cranked hard. They simply are not designed for this type of use.

Pretty much any half-decent speaker with an 8" woofer or larger, and 200WRMS up its kazoo is going to FAR surpass the sound quality, output and reliability of your existing setup with your intended use. In the end it will depend how much space you are willing to sacrifice (ie. a single pair of 8" speakers, a sub/satellite setup, a par of 10", 12" or 15" speakers etc). If you are set on 8" speakers as you described in an earlier post, my suggestions may well be appealing! One pair of Behringer Truths will beat the snot out of your existing setup.



Also, adding a set of larger, more efficient speakers to your existing setup should yield decent results. Your existing speakers are tiny and quite inefficient (85db/1w/1m).

As an example (not necessarily recommending these speakers in particular) something like these will work much better:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2-X-MONITOR-SPEAKER-HOME-THEATRE-SYSTEMS-HIFI-SYSTEMS-/390240914213?pt=AU_hifi_system&hash=item5adc2bcb25

91db/1w/1m sensitivity, larger diameter woofer, proper 2 way speaker, ported enclosure... compared to the tiny Sony speakers, it all adds up to higher dB for every watt you feed the speaker.

You may well find that a nice set of passive speakers with a 8" or 10" woofer will do the trick if you've currently been thrasing a set of home theatre midget speakers to get your desired output level. 65WRMS into a set of 8" or larger speakers with 90+db sensitivity should get plenty loud compared to what you have now.

Edited by pete_mac

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Hmm... after checking the specs of your Onkyo and also the speakers you have previously/currently been using, I actually feel more comfortable in mentioning the B3031A and B2031A now!

Specs don't mean diddly-squat and just because a speaker is professional doesn't mean it will go loud and stand up to abuse. PA speakers are worlds apart from studio monitoring speakers, which are designed more for finesse like domestic speakers, but slightly differing in a few areas.

The OP needs PA speakers, not studio monitors!

They will look something like below. Certainly no piano black:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23493[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]23494[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]23495[/ATTACH]pencil.png

Edited by amey01

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Specs don't mean diddly-squat and just because a speaker is professional doesn't mean it will go loud and stand up to abuse. PA speakers are worlds apart from studio monitoring speakers, which are designed more for finesse like domestic speakers, but slightly differing in a few areas.

The OP needs PA speakers, not studio monitors!

They will look something like below. Certainly no piano black:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23493[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]23494[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]23495[/ATTACH]pencil.png

No offence, but I think we really need to look at this in context.

The OP is having dramas with a setup that involves driving TINY home-theatre-in-a-box speakers to loud levels. These are tiny, inefficient speakers with comparatively low output. If these type of speakers are generally providing the desired SPLs apart from the obvious distortion/amp cutting out issues described in this thread, and the OP is after something that provides similar or slightly louder SPLs but with far improved reliability and no ongoing issues, then pehaps upgrading to PA speakers is bordering on overkill? Are we using a sledgehammer to kill an ant here?

Earlier in the thread, the OP said:

ok gabe the little sonies a workout last night , nothing too loud but loud enough , after about five hours they started to sound crap i immediately turned of the amp , the amp was pretty cool in its new location so it was having no problems pushing the sound , i left it for about five minutes turned the music on again and played for another few hours without a problem

Personally I think that the specs tell us a lot in this instance. At least it gives us a baseline upon which to base our recommendations. If the OP is using full range 4-5" speakers with 65WRMS and getting OK sound (apart from the reliability and distortion issue) then do we really need to recommend 12" and 15" woofers with 300W+ on tap? Surely a reasonable upgrade in woofer cone diameter and overall speaker quality will make a big difference to the achievable output? Throw a solid 150-200WRMS or so and I bet there will a tangible improvement overall - higher SPL, more headroom etc.

It's like someone who says their existing car is unreliable and they want something faster. Unless we ascertain what they are driving to begin with (in this case, a Hyundai) we could end up recommending they upgrade to a Porsche, when in fact a Subaru WRX could be a massive step up in performance and reliability over what they currently have, and be quite ample for their needs. It's all relative.

And don't get me wrong... I personally love clean, clear sound from quality PA setups. I've been at the helm of a lot of different gear over the years, including small satellite/sub portable combos, all the way to 20kw club setups. For sheer volume and impact (and sound quality with higher end gear like Turbosound and Nexo etc) you can't beat PA gear. I just think that we could be overcooking it a bit here.

I'd be very interested to hear more info on the OP's room (dimensions, construction type, floor covering etc) as I think this will also play a big role in what is suitable.

Edited by pete_mac

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thanks guys for your inputs and time you have spent researching and helping , the sonies done a pretty good job last night , played most of the night at a slightly reduced limit, the amp did not get hot , and there was no instance of distortion , so in reality i need around 15-20 percent more reliable power from my new speakers to play long hours is needed , possibly up to 15 - 20 hours sometimes although that is no more then a couple of times a month , the rest oft he time they will be only for my listenting

i like the look of monitor speakers better then the pa speakers , i think i have gone away from my floorstander thoughts now as room is becoming an issue and id like to mount these in two corners of the room

i noticed you mentioned 2 sets and stereo imaging , ill add some pics of my room and sizes tomorrow im not sure if i need two sets i might be better off with a good sub instead, i also want a speaker that comes with a mic and sets itself to the room

amey i havent ruled out the pa speakers yet but i feel as im starting to get older now 43 my party times wont last much longer , and as dumb as it may sound appearance is high on my list as well as sounding good and the pa speakers just dont look nice, well at least not in any pics ive seen

i am only running two speakers and a sub and think i will probably stick to that set up in the bar room

as i said ill add some dimensions and pics of the bar room including my juke project

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Some PA speakers have pretty good specs.

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egosbar, just to confirm, the Sony speakers being used are tiny little speakers from a home theatre setup, yeah?

If so, have you considered upgrading to larger, more efficient passive speakers (eg. even a set of bookshelf speakers with 6.5" or 8" woofers)? Some of these can be fairly compact and I bet you would be astounded with the difference compared to your little home theatre speakers! It's like chalk and cheese.

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so in reality i need around 15-20 percent more reliable power from my new speakers to play long hours is needed

Only you know your requirements best, but given what you said - if you aim for 15-20% and get 15-20% then one day - sooner or later - maybe next week - maybe next month - maybe in a year - but sure enough - that one person will have sunk one too many cans and turn it up to 21% and boom, speaker will blow, all this work undone.

If you want to party, get something designed for parties, not studio monitoring from a silent mixing desk!

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Only you know your requirements best, but given what you said - if you aim for 15-20% and get 15-20% then one day - sooner or later - maybe next week - maybe next month - maybe in a year - but sure enough - that one person will have sunk one too many cans and turn it up to 21% and boom, speaker will blow, all this work undone.

If you want to party, get something designed for parties, not studio monitoring from a silent mixing desk!

the way i will have my set up is the amp will be above the juke box out of reach , i will have the maximum power i want played at any time set with the computer volume at 100 percent on the juke , there will be a volume knob on the juke which i can go from 100 percent to 0 so that will control sound and even if they turn it all the way up it will only go to my setting ive put on the amp , i have a remote behing my bar that at any time i can turn it down

im wondering now if the jukebox program im using (skjuke box) doesnt volume level well , as the other night i thought some songs sounded llouder then others

i think my needs probably dont require pa speakers unless the monitor style cant handle long periods ie 15-20 hours , the max i need over and above what im doing is about 15 - 20 percent in reality when i had the problem it was from 55 to 60 on my amp which is loud , normal listening is around 35-45

i f i play at 55 its generally only one song or two then it is down

oh yes the sonies were bought as surround sound although i bought them not as a package with dvd player etc they were purchased after i bought a dvd and upgraded the cheap ones, i paid about 600 for them and the amp , country prices agggggghh thank god for ebay lol

the sonies plaayed all night on saturday night from 7 pm to 7 am at a good listening level occasionaly turning it up for a song , the amp ran so much cooler then running the technics and i noticed no clipping or distortion

so an upgrade to a decent monitor style or something that can handle slightly louder volume level will be fine i think

i still wonder if the adelaide ascersion speakers i mentioned will be fine as i really like them

im still a little undecided on my final decision hence why im here

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The easiest and foolproof way to save speakers from blowing up due to accidental abuse is to wire some polyswitches in series with the drivers. Polyswitches are inexpensive, very small and reset themselves when the fault / overload condition is removed.

Cheers,

Alan R.

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egosbar, just to confirm, the Sony speakers being used are tiny little speakers from a home theatre setup, yeah?

If so, have you considered upgrading to larger, more efficient passive speakers (eg. even a set of bookshelf speakers with 6.5" or 8" woofers)? Some of these can be fairly compact and I bet you would be astounded with the difference compared to your little home theatre speakers! It's like chalk and cheese.

yes although they were an upgrade from the original ones and i paid around 600 for them , they were not bought to do the stereo style im using them for now , im getting closer to making a decision and will not be having any more parties untill after i buy new speakers , ill be in brisbane next month does anyone know a good hi fi shop in the city

again my budget is 1000 dollars so ive looked at the truths etc any more value for that buck will be appreciated and considered

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this is what im after ill definitely be looking at these , do they affect sound in any way

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the B2031A s mentioned above in an earlier reply could be the look im after although in piano black finish , i would like them to be able to have a auto detect mic plugged in to detect best settings as my little sonies do ive had a bit of success using that method , these sort will be mounted just below roof level in corners of my room

any suggestions would be appreciated 1000 - 1500 max budget

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One thing to bear in mind with any powered/active speakers is that instead of running your normal speaker wire, you will need to run line level (RCA) wires to each speaker, and also a power cord.

Active speakers are an option if you want to cease using your existing amplifier to power any speakers.

If you want to continue to use your amp to power a pair of speakers, and would prefer to run speaker wires only, you will need to look at some normal passive speakers. There's a LOT of different kinds out there which may do the job OK.

You could even consider sourcing a dedicated 2 channel amp to run your 'music' speakers on their own, and keep your home theatre amp for that purpose only. You can buy plenty of 'watts' fairly cheaply on the second-hand market, including such options as Biema amps eg.

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/27313-FS-2-x-Biema-Professional-Stereo-AMP-300wpc-8ohm

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/POWER-AMP-BIEMA-W330ii-2x300w-8Ohm-PROFESSIONAL-/160481685691?pt=AU_Electronics_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item255d7430bb

These are quite popular for high-powered home theatre use, as they are powerful and quite clean-sounding for the price. The Biemas have the bonus of RCA inputs as well as excellent input sensitivity settings on the rear panel, meaning no preamp is required.

Couple an amp like this with any speaker that can handle a genuine 100-150WRMS, keep the gains low to limit your power ouput, place the amp out of sight to prevent drunken hands from winding up the gain controls, and your amplifier issues will be a thing of the past. You'd also be amazed how much more dynamic your music will sound when they have some real grunt behind them, compared to 65WRMS from a home theatre amp. Been there, done that!

Lots of options anyway... you should carefully consider whether passive or active speakers are the way to go, bearing in mind your room constraints (eg. ability to run power and RCA cables vs speaker wires only). In the end, the theme of most recommendations here are pretty similar - larger speakers and more power (not necessarily for massively increased output, but for improved reliability and greater headroom).

Edited by pete_mac

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no problem running power and rca leads out side the house in conduit , as promised here are my pics for the bar and juke , the speaker you see above the juke are the sonies the other is on the other corner of the room which is where ill mount my new speakers so rca and power can be easily run outside in conduit

yes i have a lot of options to consider as the juke will be a piano black finish the look of the speakers are important as well

and as many options as i can get here will be good , im not keen on second hand gear so a new powered amp may be the option , so if my budget it 1500 and i want new 2 x speakers and a amp what suggestions remembering again look of the amp is also important as it will be on top of the juke , i have a sub and i can get a good one at a later date

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Nice work with the jukebox!

The little silver speaker in the corner above the jukebox in picture no. 4 - is that one of the Sony speakers?

How much space is there between the ceiling and the top of the jukebox?

Where is the other Sony speaker(s) located? And is that the sub underneath the jukebox?

You're definitely asking too much of that setup - it must be working DAMN hard to provide a decent volume level.

Edited by pete_mac

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there will be a volume knob on the juke which i can go from 100 percent to 0 so that will control sound and even if they turn it all the way up it will only go to my setting ive put on the amp , i have a remote behing my bar that at any time i can turn it down

That should keep it under control!

im wondering now if the jukebox program im using (skjuke box) doesnt volume level well , as the other night i thought some songs sounded llouder then others

Perfectly normal - depends on the mastering of different CDs. You can try something like "Replaygain" for non-critical listening if your juke app supports it.

Pics look great by the way!

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thanks , i think the onkyo levels the music and the cook had the remote and was turning it down all night

ok so the build was the easy part im after a set up now my budget being 1500 , i would prefer at this stage to keep running the onkyo and spend the money on speakers i can always add a amp later on , still wondering if the onkyo will run the floorstanders from ascertion or the monitor speakers will be better suited , my preference is still with these options now i have to decide on powered speakers etc

any thoughts would be well appreciated and i prefer new over used although if its a great deal ill definitely have a look

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IMHO spending $1400 on a set of floorstanding speakers isn't the way to go in this particular application, but it really depends what you want to achieve. I thought you were keen to have corner-mounted speakers up near the ceiling?

If you really are keen on floorstanders, there's a wide range of moderately-priced floorstanders that will FAR outperform your little Sony cubes. Unless you are buying speakers for critical listening (which I don't think you are... you obviously want something that sounds decent, but you don't need high-end sound, right?) then you could get by with something that looks and sounds good without costing $1k+ for speakers alone. Do you want to spend big bucks on speakers that could get kicked/damaged/drinks spilled on them etc?

Again... it depends whether you really want floorstanders... but a quick google revealed options like this from a mainstream shop like JB Hifi in Brisbane:

Wharfedales with 2 x 8" woofers and a 1" dome tweeter for about $650/pr. Piano gloss fronts too:

24981_learnmore.gif

Sherwoods with 2 x 6" woofers and 1" dome tweeter. Also piano gloss fronts. About $350/pr.

25776_learnmore.gif

Speakers like this are noticeably more efficient than your current cubes, so they will put out higher SPLs for a given input power. This means you could theoretically use less power from the amp to produce the same outright SPLs. I reckon they'd make decent enough jukebox speakers!

Both of the above brands/models are available in bookshelf speakers with the same piano finish on the front for $200-300/pr. At that price, you could grab a pair and see how they go with your Onkyo.

Otherwise, based upon the price of speakers like the above, you can very easily spend $4-500 of your remaining funds on a decent 2 channel amp to run the speakers, and you can relegate the Onkyo back to home theatre duties.

Grab some new speaker wire too - you can get reasonable quality 16 or 14 guage cable quite cheaply, and you won't need more than 14 gauge in this application unless you are running long runs of speaker wire. The tiny thin wire that comes with home theatre cube speakers is junk.

Anyhow, all of this is just food for thought, as there are so many different options that you could pursue. You really need to work out what direction you want to head in. Small PA-style speakers are still worth considering, so long as you can find a style you like. Have you considered a set of smaller 8" or 10" plastic-cabinet PA speakers mounted up in the corners, but finished/painted in a gloss black to suit your needs?

Edited by pete_mac

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this is what im after ill definitely be looking at these , do they affect sound in any way

There will no doubt be some here that will say polyswitches affect the sound and therefore advise against using them. IME they don't have any significant affect on the quality of the sound.

The trip current of Polyswitches are rated according to the current flow through them. When the trip current is exceeded they go high resistance preventing the driver from "blowing".

They are best installed in series with the + input to each section of the crossover network related to each driver. So in a three way speaker you will need three polyswitches, each rated according to the power handling capability of each driver in the box.

Calculating Required Value

I = v(P/R), where I is the speaker input current, P is the speaker input power, and R is the speaker impedance. For a 80W per channel RMS amplifier driving an 8 ohm speaker, the speaker current is: I = v(80/8) = 3.2A, so the 3.7 A (trip current) polyswitch is selected.

You can find a reasonable range of polyswitches at - http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=srch&search=polyswitches&option=and&list=0&pg=0&sort=code

Cheers,

Alan R.

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That should keep it under control!

Perfectly normal - depends on the mastering of different CDs. You can try something like "Replaygain" for non-critical listening if your juke app supports it.

Pics look great by the way!

Ripping your CD's with EAC, you can set your 'normalize' rate to make the volumes equal.

itunes will do it as well for that matter..........but after the fact.

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