FM Tuner - All the Same?

[surprisetech]

On 10/05/2019 at 3:45 PM, Batty said:

Yeah, sensitivity.

Makes sense.

The Audiolab 8000T is the only Brit designed tuner in my collection.    Apparently they spent nearly 10 years developing it and obviously had a global market in their sights!

[Paul R]

I use a Pioneer TX-9800. IMHO it is rather under rated. Plus it looks nice in the late 70's style.

 

Antenna, I was advised to piggyback off that for the digital TV. It works and presents Classic FM well.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

[surprisetech]

There's a Denon TU-1500 AM/FM Tuner on Gumtree at present.

It's been recommended in this thread and this one looks to be in pristine condition.

I was going to buy it, but then realised it lacks a Hi-Blend switch.  Not an issue for the vast majority of folk, but I'm in a fringe reception area and it's a feature I use on some of the low-powered public stations I listen to.

It's located in ACT, but seller is willing to post.

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/griffith/radios-receivers/tuner-denon-tu-1500/1209007761

 

I've posted this in the 'Great buys on ebay/Gumtree thread, but thought it might be useful to post it here as well if anyone is still on the lookout for one.

[wen]

i use a Denon TU750s, plugged into a TV aerial outlet, works very well, previously had a NAD 4020 which i moved on and have a NAD4225 as a backup, all station signal strengths are good to very good

[audiofeline]

On 07/05/2018 at 4:09 PM, MusicOne said:

Accuphase has just released its new FM tuner: http://www.accuphase.com/model/t-1200.html

 

 

The likely RRP of this unit is 7/8K. Would you pay nearly $8K for an FM tuner?

I would guess that the person who would pay ~$8K for the tuner would be the person who has bought the matching Accuphase preamp, power amp(s) and CD player.  It all has to match right!

[audiofeline]

Revisiting this topic has reminded me of when I first heard FM radio.  It was at the Melbourne HiFi show in the early 70's, before FM transmissions hit our airwaves. 

 

The show had obtained a limited broadcast licence to broadcast FM at the show so the newly-imported tuners could be demonstrated in anticipation of the first FM stations being created in the following year(s).  I recall walking into demo rooms and being astounded finding out that I was listening to the radio, not high-quality record reproduction. 

 

Many years later I discovered that the FM tuners are not created equally.  I upgraded my first tuner, which had a very thin sound, to a Luxman which sounded much better and was comparable quality to other components in my system. 

 

I've upgraded the tuner a few years ago so I could have a remote control, but have hardly touched it as radio is not as important to my listening as it used to be. 

 

[Monkeyboi]

I've been listening to FM radio before it stated here in Australia when I lived overseas.  Admittedly not on a hi-fi system, but when FM stereo transmissions commenced here in Australia I became far more interested as the SQ was streets ahead of the horrible 9kHz bandwidth AM.

 

One thing I have noticed is that over the years the SQ of the music has gradually deteriorated on many stations.  AFAIK most now stream their music from servers (which makes sense) but store the music as MP3 files.  Probably in some cases at relatively low bitrates and as expected highly compressed which IMHO detracts from the enjoyment of the music in a quiet listening environment.  In the early days of FM broadcasting here in WA the first commercial FM station 96FM used to transcribe all their vinyl to cartridge tapes which the DJ would use on-air.  Yes, no CD back in those days.  

 

My local community FM station when delivering local content spin their music from CD players and use little or no compression.  IMO the SQ is better than most other commercial stations in my listening area.

 

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what sources the ABC and SBS stations use?

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[stereo coffee]

21 hours ago, Monkeyboi said:

I've been listening to FM radio before it stated here in Australia when I lived overseas.  Admittedly not on a hi-fi system, but when FM stereo transmissions commenced here in Australia I became far more interested as the SQ was streets ahead of the horrible 9kHz bandwidth AM.

 

One thing I have noticed is that over the years the SQ of the music has gradually deteriorated on many stations.  AFAIK most now stream their music from servers (which makes sense) but store the music as MP3 files.  Probably in some cases at relatively low bitrates and as expected highly compressed which IMHO detracts from the enjoyment of the music in a quiet listening environment.  In the early days of FM broadcasting here in WA the first commercial FM station 96FM used to transcribe all their vinyl to cartridge tapes which the DJ would use on-air.  Yes, no CD back in those days.  

 

My local community FM station when delivering local content spin their music from CD players and use little or no compression.  IMO the SQ is better than most other commercial stations in my listening area.

 

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what sources the ABC and SBS stations use?

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

Hi Alan

Your reply raises some interesting points, namely should national broadcasters use non proprietary file types.  FLAC would appear the obvious answer as it is effectively loss-less and unencumbered by patents   https://xiph.org/flac/index.html       IMO we should encourage them to use FLAC 

 

Proprietary file types as you may know, perversely require payment to the developers to improve that file type. This of course appears contrary to logic, appearing anti community in sentiment, but sadly is exactly how proprietary capitalism functions. 

  

I will write to the ABC to ask, I know here in NZ I know that WAV ( proprietary ) is used by our national broadcaster,however RNZ also make ogg available ( thanks to Richard at RNZ )  as a download for podcasts. Talking of which VLC is great way of enjoying podcasts  

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by stereo coffee

[Notoriousnick]

I generally listen to FM on my Sangean WFT-3D, which is an FM/DAB+, etc. radio. The FM section is part of Silicon Frontier's Venice 6.5 chip.

 

I also have a couple of FM/AM old school tuners from the 1970's. Nothing too special I believe, but I do like playing with them, particularly the JVC JT-V31 (1975). The other Tuner is an Onkyo T5000 (1979?). The older tuners have spec sheets, but no such such information is available for the Sangean's FM section.

 

The Sangean does sound quite OK on FM, so I was wondering if there's some source of information on the specifications for the FM section or for that matter, modern radios with similar highly integrated chips? I'd really like to know how they perform compared to tuners from the earlier era. Finding such information seems impossible. Something I read suggested that the inbuilt DSP in modern tuner chips makes them perform far better, but this could be a red herring.

 

Any ideas or comments please?

[surprisetech]

12 hours ago, Notoriousnick said:

I generally listen to FM on my Sangean WFT-3D, which is an FM/DAB+, etc. radio. The FM section is part of Silicon Frontier's Venice 6.5 chip.

 

I also have a couple of FM/AM old school tuners from the 1970's. Nothing too special I believe, but I do like playing with them, particularly the JVC JT-V31 (1975). The other Tuner is an Onkyo T5000 (1979?). The older tuners have spec sheets, but no such such information is available for the Sangean's FM section.

 

The Sangean does sound quite OK on FM, so I was wondering if there's some source of information on the specifications for the FM section or for that matter, modern radios with similar highly integrated chips? I'd really like to know how they perform compared to tuners from the earlier era. Finding such information seems impossible. Something I read suggested that the inbuilt DSP in modern tuner chips makes them perform far better, but this could be a red herring.

 

Any ideas or comments please?

I did track down some specs for the Venice 6.0 used in the WFT-1D.  I imagine the Venice 6.5 used in the 3D would be similar, but can't find any detailed data for it.  The RF front-end was upgraded from Apollo in the 6.0, to Apollo 2 in the 6.5, so it's possible that the 3D may perform a little better.

DIN Mono sensitivity (S/N 26dB 75Ohms):     106dBm (1.2uV)

S/N Ratio (Stereo):     63dB

THD (Stereo):     0.15%

FM Adjacent Channel Selectivity:      30 to 40dB

Stereo Separation:     25 to 40dB

 

All quite respectable figures although I would have expected a S/N Ratio closer to  70dB which is what a typical stereo receiver or AVR can achieve.

Unfortunately, the Stereo 50dB quieting sensitivity, which is probably the more important sensitivity figure, is not given.

 

By way of comparison the range of figures I have on my other component tuners are:

DIN Mono sensitivity (S/N 26dB 75Ohms):     0.7 to 1.2uV

S/N Ratio (Stereo):  73dB to 87dB

THD (Stereo) Wide IF:     0.02% to 0.08%

THD (Stereo) Narrow IF:     0.15% to 0.3%

FM Adjacent Channel Selectivity Wide IF:     20 to 55dB

FM Adjacent Channel Selectivity Narrow IF:     70 to 80dB

Stereo Separation:      50 to 65dB

To be fair, these are all vintage high-end digital synthesized tuners that were pretty pricey in their day.

[Notoriousnick]

22 minutes ago, surprisetech said:

I did track down some specs for the Venice 6.0 used in the WFT-1D.

Thanks so much for that information! That at least gives me something to go on .

 

My JVC JT-V31 has a S/N ratio of only 50 dB in stereo. I like listening to 5MBS (jazz programs in particular) held on this community station. I get a strong enough signal, but there is another station just 200 kHz underneath, raising the noise level when tuned to 5MBS. I can greatly reduce this noise level by tuning up as far as possible while still maintaining a stereo signal.

 

If I do the same thing with the WFT-3D, underlying noise level doesn't drop much. So, on the JVC the announcers voice comes almost out of blackness, but constant hiss is still there on the Sangean.

 

Perhaps this has more to do with the Capture Ratio? It is 1.2 dB on the JVC, which isn't too shabby and from the info you gave, doesn't look like like it's supplied for the Sangean.

 

A limitation of the Sangean is that you can tune only in 50 kHz increments, but I don't think finer tuning adjustments (i.e. tuning a bit further away from interfering station) would help that much. Tuning 100 kHz away just causes distortion and drop outs.

 

So for FM, I prefer the JVC! Other figures for this radio:

 

Distortion at 1 kHz (stereo): 0.35%

50 dB sensistivity (stereo): 40uV

Usable sensistivity: 1.9 uV

 

Lots of other stats, but the above just for some idea. Guess for FM I may stick the JVC. Not that I wouldn't mind trying a more highly specified radio!

 

Thanks again!

 

Cheers,

Nicholas

 

[surprisetech]

20 minutes ago, Notoriousnick said:

Thanks so much for that information! That at least gives me something to go on .

 

My JVC JT-V31 has a S/N ratio of only 50 dB in stereo. I like listening to 5MBS (jazz programs in particular) held on this community station. I get a strong enough signal, but there is another station just 200 kHz underneath, raising the noise level when tuned to 5MBS. I can greatly reduce this noise level by tuning up as far as possible while still maintaining a stereo signal.

 

If I do the same thing with the WFT-3D, underlying noise level doesn't drop much. So, on the JVC the announcers voice comes almost out of blackness, but constant hiss is still there on the Sangean.

 

Perhaps this has more to do with the Capture Ratio? It is 1.2 dB on the JVC, which isn't too shabby and from the info you gave, doesn't look like like it's supplied for the Sangean.

 

A limitation of the Sangean is that you can tune only in 50 kHz increments, but I don't think finer tuning adjustments (i.e. tuning a bit further away from interfering station) would help that much. Tuning 100 kHz away just causes distortion and drop outs.

 

So for FM, I prefer the JVC! Other figures for this radio:

 

Distortion at 1 kHz (stereo): 0.35%

50 dB sensistivity (stereo): 40uV

Usable sensistivity: 1.9 uV

 

Lots of other stats, but the above just for some idea. Guess for FM I may stick the JVC. Not that I wouldn't mind trying a more highly specified radio!

 

Thanks again!

 

Cheers,

Nicholas

 

You're welcome Nicholas.  I'm also a big fan of community & public radio.

 

The JVC looks a decent unit.  Not too many tuners have a Hi-Blend option.

The ability to manually tune slightly off-frequency is probably one of the few advantages that an analogue tuner has over digital unless the digital has much finer tuning steps.

 

Another thing you could consider is to check where the transmitters are for the 2 stations.  If they're not at the same location, then rotate your antenna so that it points directly at the 5MBS transmitter.  (compass bearings are handy)

 

If you do upgrade your tuner at some point, the features you need are an IF bandwidth switch that offers a 'Narrow' &/or 'Super Narrow' setting and good 50dB quieting sensitivity.

[Notoriousnick]

Just now, surprisetech said:

Another thing you could consider is to check where the transmitters are for the 2 stations.  If they're not at the same location, then rotate your antenna so that it points directly at the 5MBS transmitter.  (compass bearings are handy)

 

I'm already ahead of you there .

 

I have an external FM antenna that I can manually rotate from inside.  Trouble is, I have a hill between the transmitting antenna and my place as I'm not really part of the 5MBS footprint. The interfering station beams from the same direction, so not a lot I can do about that. Nevertheless, tuning off frequency a bit makes a big difference.

 

As you advise, I'll keep my eye open for tuners with better key specs. I can partially align them myself, but may build an RF signal generator (Silicon Chip magazine, June and July 2019), so that I can do the whole job.

[stereo coffee]

21 minutes ago, Notoriousnick said:

 

I'm already ahead of you there .

 

I have an external FM antenna that I can manually rotate from inside.  Trouble is, I have a hill between the transmitting antenna and my place as I'm not really part of the 5MBS footprint. The interfering station beams from the same direction, so not a lot I can do about that. Nevertheless, tuning off frequency a bit makes a big difference.

 

As you advise, I'll keep my eye open for tuners with better key specs. I can partially align them myself, but may build an RF signal generator (Silicon Chip magazine, June and July 2019), so that I can do the whole job.

Here are a few tips for difficult reception areas. Point your antenna at aerials that may hopefully be at the top of the hill.  If its a unused or occupied area and you have permission, climb the hill and attach another aerial or at least some metal to reflect a signal off, then point to that with the first antenna. 

 

A discone is  in many ways the perfect antenna - although it is omnidirectional it has excellent impedance matching over a very wide bandwidth, as well as offering a elevated from ground, ground plane. it may prove handy in this circumstance.    

 

 

[Notoriousnick]

Thanks Chris!

 

Reception is pretty good (despite the hill), just that a station a bit lower down is increasing noise. Interesting idea though, reflecting the incoming signal. Being in Adelaide though these hills are either protected (hills face zone) or lived upon. It's not rural so I can't actually install anything should the need arise. There is a broadcast tower on the hill in question, but of course, there is no access to that.

 

I am pretty high up though (~450m), and my beam FM antenna has no problem picking up stations 250km away i.e. Port Lincoln.

[stereo coffee]

3 hours ago, Notoriousnick said:

Thanks Chris!

 

Reception is pretty good (despite the hill), just that a station a bit lower down is increasing noise. Interesting idea though, reflecting the incoming signal. Being in Adelaide though these hills are either protected (hills face zone) or lived upon. It's not rural so I can't actually install anything should the need arise. There is a broadcast tower on the hill in question, but of course, there is no access to that.

 

I am pretty high up though (~450m), and my beam FM antenna has no problem picking up stations 250km away i.e. Port Lincoln.

Hi Nick

It may be a polarity issue then that the station is broadcasting with opposite polarity to your receiving antenna.  You could check if their polarity is vertical or horizontal with either the actual station, or looking up their data at the ACMA website. some stations try their best to do both polarities with a circular polarization but it also wastes enormous power as nature and physics fights back.   

[Notoriousnick]

22 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

It may be a polarity issue then that the station is broadcasting with opposite polarity to your receiving antenna. 

Good pick-up, Chris. However, I did check that. Apparently they are not using circular polarity, but rather mixed polarity - which is different from circular. Seems that most FM stations use either mixed or vertical polarisation. That should be OK though for my horizontal antenna. Still, it shouldn't be too hard to temporarily change the orientation of my antenna - even if only to see what difference that might make. Might help pick up a few distant vertically polarised stations, though I'm not really into DX. If I don't try, I don't find out .

[Notoriousnick]

As an update, I moved my FM antenna and now have perfect reception! Originally it was 2m above the roof gable - the highest point. However, reflections off the roof may have resulted in multipath or other distortion. It is now located at the *side* of the house, a couple of meters lower down and I have no such problems. So go figure. The downside is that I can no longer rotate the antenna, but that's OK - at least I can listen to my favourite station with optimal fidelity!

[surprisetech]

19 hours ago, Notoriousnick said:

 

I'm already ahead of you there .

 

I have an external FM antenna that I can manually rotate from inside.  Trouble is, I have a hill between the transmitting antenna and my place as I'm not really part of the 5MBS footprint. The interfering station beams from the same direction, so not a lot I can do about that. Nevertheless, tuning off frequency a bit makes a big difference.

 

As you advise, I'll keep my eye open for tuners with better key specs. I can partially align them myself, but may build an RF signal generator (Silicon Chip magazine, June and July 2019), so that I can do the whole job.

Thanks for the heads up on the Silicon Chip Signal Generator.  I could use one of those!  Will look into it.

[Notoriousnick]

On 15/10/2019 at 1:10 PM, surprisetech said:

By way of comparison the range of figures I have on my other component tuners are:

DIN Mono sensitivity (S/N 26dB 75Ohms):     0.7 to 1.2uV

S/N Ratio (Stereo):  73dB to 87dB

THD (Stereo) Wide IF:     0.02% to 0.08%

THD (Stereo) Narrow IF:     0.15% to 0.3%

FM Adjacent Channel Selectivity Wide IF:     20 to 55dB

FM Adjacent Channel Selectivity Narrow IF:     70 to 80dB

Stereo Separation:      50 to 65dB

To be fair, these are all vintage high-end digital synthesized tuners that were pretty pricey in their day.

Well ... while I thoroughly enjoy my JVC-V31 tuner, the thought of something better is very tempting.

 

Many of the better tuners are not that easy to get. I think I've memorised everything on fmtunerinfo.com and also have done a whole lot of reading. So it was a matter of finding something with sufficient performance, but that also wouldn't break the bank yet be available. I ended up finding a Yamaha TX-930. I should have this in a week or so. It is the same radio as the TX-950, except that the latter has more memory allocations. The TX-930 was much lauded on the fmtunerinfo.com site, though it didn't participate in the shoot out. The Audio Critic gave it a rave review - https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

 

50 dB Quieting Sensistivity (IHF):

   75 Ohms Mono -  1.55 uV

    Stereo (Narrow) - 21 uV

Usable sensitivity (75 ohms, 1 kHz, 100% mod. (30 dB quieting) - 0.8 uV

Signal to Noise Ratio (Stereo, IHF) - 90 dB

Selectivity - 70 dB

Capture Ratio - 1.2 dB

Alternate Channel Selectivity - 85 dB

Distortion

   Mono (1 kHz) - 0.02%

   Stereo (1 kHz) - 0.03%

Stereo Separation - 60 dB

 

Narrow and wide IF filters, blending, etc, and two 75 Ohm coax inputs (I can switch between two antennas).

 

In relation to my JVC, I really like the smooth, large tuning knob, the large dial display, the lit up signal strength meter and tuning display, but heck, the Yamaha is way ahead on spec's and by all reports, should sound great, too. So I'll be all ears when it arrives .

 

 

 

[surprisetech]

On 19/10/2019 at 8:28 PM, Notoriousnick said:

Well ... while I thoroughly enjoy my JVC-V31 tuner, the thought of something better is very tempting.

 

Many of the better tuners are not that easy to get. I think I've memorised everything on fmtunerinfo.com and also have done a whole lot of reading. So it was a matter of finding something with sufficient performance, but that also wouldn't break the bank yet be available. I ended up finding a Yamaha TX-930. I should have this in a week or so. It is the same radio as the TX-950, except that the latter has more memory allocations. The TX-930 was much lauded on the fmtunerinfo.com site, though it didn't participate in the shoot out. The Audio Critic gave it a rave review - https://www.biline.ca/audio_critic/mags/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

 

In relation to my JVC, I really like the smooth, large tuning knob, the large dial display, the lit up signal strength meter and tuning display, but heck, the Yamaha is way ahead on spec's and by all reports, should sound great, too. So I'll be all ears when it arrives .

Great pick up, and at a great price.  I saw that one.  Almost contemplated getting it myself to replace an older TX-900, but considering that my TX-900 isn't even in service at the moment, it would have been sheer indulgence!!

Much better that it goes where it will be used and appreciated.

 

I wouldn't worry that it hasn't been chosen in a shootout.  It actually amazes me that those guys manage to do as many of those comparisons as they do.

[Notoriousnick]

18 hours ago, surprisetech said:

Great pick up, and at a great price.  I saw that one.  Almost contemplated getting it myself to replace an older TX-900, but considering that my TX-900 isn't even in service at the moment, it would have been sheer indulgence!!

Much better that it goes where it will be used and appreciated.

 

I wouldn't worry that it hasn't been chosen in a shootout.  It actually amazes me that those guys manage to do as many of those comparisons as they do.

One can never have too many tuners .

 

Compared to the US, not a lot of decent tuners come up for sale here very often. I guess it's a waiting game.

 

While waiting for the TX-930 to arrive, I will mount a 3-element FM antenna back up on my rotating mast. Given that the radio has inputs for two antennas, I can then attach my permanently oriented '5MBS' antenna on the 'A' input, and the rotating antenna for DX on the 'B' input.

 

I'll report back once I have the TX-930 .

[surprisetech]

39 minutes ago, Notoriousnick said:

Compared to the US, not a lot of decent tuners come up for sale here very often. I guess it's a waiting game.

Yes, there are a lot more US listings, however patience does pay off.

We do have one advantage over the US.  Since we have mains voltage, channel spacing and FM de-emphasis values in common with most of Europe, a number of very nice tuners made in, or made for the European market come up for sale here that are extremely scarce in the US.  My Audiolab 8000T and one of my Marantz tuners fall into that category.

 

Looking forward to your impressions of the TX-930

 

[Lochawe]

15 minutes ago, surprisetech said:

Yes, there are a lot more US listings, however patience does pay off.

We do have one advantage over the US.  Since we have mains voltage, channel spacing and FM de-emphasis values in common with most of Europe, a number of very nice tuners made in, or made for the European market come up for sale here that are extremely scarce in the US.  My Audiolab 8000T and one of my Marantz tuners fall into that category.

 

Looking forward to your impressions of the TX-930

 

Yes I agree that Europe is a great source of tuners – I picked up this mint trade-in Magnum Dynalab MD105 in 230V from a dealer in The Netherlands which is superb and a huge step up in performance from my previous Denon TU-1500AE. 

[Notoriousnick]

On 23/10/2019 at 9:12 AM, surprisetech said:

Looking forward to your impressions of the TX-930

 

Well, it never rains - it pours! My FM antenna arrived yesterday and the TX-930 today.

 

I obtained cable, connectors and so forth and put the new antenna up on the rotating mast, the mast that was previously inhabited by the other FM antenna now at the side of the house.

 

Next step, hook up the TX-930. It worked perfectly!

 

The interesting thing is that the TX-930 had no problem with antenna location - or even orientation - when tuned to 5MBS (the station I was originally having a little trouble with). For example, I did not get mild distortion when using the rotating beam antenna. I'd say the much improved selectivity must have something to do with that.

 

Furthermore, when using the WFT-3D or the JVC, if I had pointed the antenna toward Mt Lofty (where all the main transmission towers are, about 6 km away from me), then 5MBS would have been wiped out. The TX-930 didn't even break a sweat!

 

So now I have two FM antennas, but am back to only needing one. Nothing like having a back-up .

 

Since I have the rotating FM antenna back, I tried a few distant stations, such as ones in Maitland, Kangaroo Island and Arthurton (all in SA of course). These are at least 120 km away, but come through with good clarity. Flow FM in Maitland is a commercial station, so more powerful than the other two  low powered community stations. I received Flow FM wideband, in stereo, with almost full quieting.

 

Last - but not least - I should mention I'm very happy with the sound quality: stereo imaging is very precise and the fidelity seems very good. Even at high volumes, listening to the community station 5MBS with its lower power, I don't hear any hiss at all during quiet bits.

 

I will keep playing with the TX-930 .

 

Edit: Received 5PNN from Tumby Bay today - a 2 kW station located 240km from me! Barely intelligible ... OK, back to listening to high fidelity music.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Notoriousnick